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AH and the Church.....why?

Tha Gopher

Something I have always wondered on boards is why so many of the posters on the AH forum have such an opinion of the catholic church. Personally, Im not religious in the slightest. Apart from a christening or two I havent been in a church since my end of school mass back about 3 years now. At the same time, I dont get why some on AH have such a hatred of it, that they must avoid all church influence in their lives. On AH I have seen posts complaining about everything from people who dont go to mass marking as Catholic on the census (or, shock roffle horror, people who at census time were mortified that their parents had marked them down as catholic) and as far as parents asking what the most suitable school that doesnt touch on religion is (aye, the half hour every 3 weeks in national school doing religion, combined with the 3 classes per week in secondary that mostly consisted of either catching up on undone homework for next class or watching Prime Time videos on drugs, teen drinking and sex really turned us all into millitant catholic jihadists).

So basiaclly, why are so many people here so afraid of the church? How can you hate something that, in most peoples cases, had zero influence, positive or negative, on their lives? Most AH posters were born, what, late 70s to mid 80s? The church had already lost its grip by the time some of the older posters here were born, never mind the younger. I dont hate the church, im just a little indifferent to it as, like most of you, Ive never had any experience of it telling me what to do (apart from the pubs closing Good Friday maybe), It just seems that, like threads about drugs, peoples inner idiot just seems to come out when the church comes up.

Discuss.....

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Seth Brundle

Out of curiosity, when did the practice of cleansing women right after childbirth stop?

Ickle Magoo

Yeah, geez, you'd hardly know there was a Catholic in Ireland these days. The Church has no influence any more at all - it just sits back quietly minding it's own business & not at all interfering with politics, education, contraception here or indeed AIDS ravaged countries in the third world, etc, etc, etc...and it must be all of, oh, 4yrs since the last case in the Ferns report...:(

Tha Gopher

DaveMcG wrote:

OP do you not see it as a bit "not nice" that an organisation which considers gays to be an abomination, which says that adulterers should be stoned to death, which says that babies are sinful at birth because Adam ate an apple, and which is extremely misogynystic, should be given free reign to brainwash children into believing same?

I wonder would you mind if it were a Muslim Imam who was manipulating your brother or sister, or a Scientologist.

Few points there

1- Didnt the church give up the "unbaptised babies in limbo/hell" bull years ago? Granted, its one of the most disgusting things they ever propogated, but deceased unbaptised kids have been treated like normal people since at least the 50s. Case in point, my granny on my mams side was from a family of 8, she is the eldest, the next baby born (her sister) died soon after birth. Her parents, who by my grannys account were normal loving parents, never really talked much about her, it was for some reason encouraged by the church not to do so if they were unbaptised. Its sad to think people believed so heavily in these things they denied themselves the memory of their deceased child but that was the grip they had back then.
Compare that to even the 50s. My dad is from a family of 7 boys and 2 girls, both girls died soon after birth (one of them was a twin, her brother, my uncle, survived despite only being something like 2 pounds, and named his 1st daughter after his twin). The rule seemed to have disappeared by then, as my dads mother, although very proud of her boys, was always heartbroken that neither of her girls had grown to adulthood, and would tell people as much.

2- The only mention of homosexuality I remember in religion class was when a teacher in about 4th year tried to teach us tolerance to gays.

A class of twenty odd 16 year old males, all of whom (afaik) were straight? Good luck.

3- Stoning? Isnt the church against death in all circumstances these days?

The thing is, people are taking it too seriously. The simple fact is that the church never gets a chance to brainwash children. If it did, every child of 13 would be a religious nutbar, only falling out of it when "deh drugs and deh drink and dey start listenin to dem bleedin rappers and deh dance music" takes hold.

As for Scoentologists etc etc, cults prey on people in their late teens early 20s. Often people who are in a bad way. Homeless, addicted to drink/drugs, mental illness, bad family, basically people open to it. Fact is the church influences barely anyone under 50 these days.

Dave!

OP do you not see it as a bit "not nice" that an organisation which considers gays to be an abomination, which says that adulterers should be stoned to death, which says that babies are sinful at birth because Adam ate an apple, and which is extremely misogynystic, should be given free reign to brainwash children into believing same?

I wonder would you mind if it were a Muslim Imam who was manipulating your brother or sister, or a Scientologist.

Tha Gopher

DublinWriter wrote:

OP - if I was a betting man, I'd lay even odds that you're younger than 21.

There's basically two types of Catholic church haters on here. First you have the younger types for whom Reglion-basing is cool and deregeur. Secondly, you have older farts like me who had first hand experience in the 70's of how pervasive the Catholic Church was and how they used to like 'getting them young', and in more ways than one.

However, listening to the horror stories from my Father about being educated in a South inner city Dublin Christian Brothers School in the 1950's really brings it home for me.

If you are young enough to be in the prozac generation and if you really need to develop an anger about the Catholic Church and the pain and suffering they inflicted on this country, read the biography of Archbishop McQuaid for starters.

Yid be right, Im 20. And what I find hilarious is people on boards who are at most 8 years older acting as if they lived in a magdalen laundry in Mayo in 1954 in terms of the old scale of oppression. People who should be thankful they didnt live in Taliban Catholic Ireland. There are alot of popular, successful things that its cool to hate on the internet- McDonalds, Microsoft, Sky, Mourhinios Chelsea, iPods, Budweiser, Smirnoff vodka, mainstream recording artists of all genres, I could go on all night. However, the church is also hated despite failing on two counts

a- Its no longer all that successful

b- It hasnt been popular since the 70s

My dad, he doesnt like the church much. He was born in the 50s. He grew up in an era where kids who got themselves into minor legal trouble, or who had useless parents, could be carted off to an industrial school for a few years with nobody saying a word. He himself ended up in hospital far from home when he was around 10 due to some leg problem, he said even in his ill state the priests and nuns would beat him and his brother (who was also ill). Whilst that was pretty ****ty, I dont hold the church of today responsible, much in the same way that although they opporessed us for 800 years and attempted to wipe out or deport our entire race on numerous occasions I dont hate the English. Because its in the past.

Dave!

Tha Gopher wrote:

tbh if theyre stupid enough to listen to the health advice of a holy man rather than a scientist its nobodys fault but their own.

Ah that's the attitude! I'm sure if you were living in Africa, where you're starving to death and relying on other countries' aid to survive, and where you're in the middle of a civil war which is killing your friends and siblings, and where you have to root through rubbish dumps to find anything that could be of value to you, and where there are millions of people dying every year from diseases that are under control in developed countries -- you'd be thinking "hey, let's look at this scientific journal/talk to this scientist about sex".

Or maybe you'd be thinking "well we're f*cked here, so let's try and ensure that in the afterlife we have it nice and cushy like Tha Gopher".

Tha Gopher

Stephen wrote:

They can probably thank the Catholic church for the rampant AIDS epidemic that they're having too, what with the CONDOMS ARE EVIL teachings and all.

tbh if theyre stupid enough to listen to the health advice of a holy man rather than a scientist its nobodys fault but their own. Anyway, I would think the problem in Africa is the cost on condoms being too much, rather than caring what the church thinks.

deswalsh wrote:

You're kidding right?
For true Catholics, following the teachings, rules, and doctrine of their chosen religion and church is what being a good Catholic is all about.
Of course the church tells you what to do. Maybe you just werent listening or something when you went to school. What sort of school was that anyway. In my day (Sh*T I'm so old!) school was all about religion, from the morning prayers, cathecism, bible, mass, benediction (what the F**k was that about, hymn lessons, visits from the PP, retreats, you name it, the church was in class every day.

Now you can claim to be catholic on the census form or on any other form you like, but if you dont listen what the church are telling you to do, then you're catholic in name only. In my opinion, that covers the majority of catholics in this country now!

Personally, my God wears black, plays his guitar southpaw, and is call Iommi.

I think in this country catholicism is an identity thing as much as anything. Im no real republican but at the same time people in the North who barely went to mass were gunned down in the 90s because of what faith it stated on the birth cert, or what faith you were assumed to follow by living in a particular area. I think in that sense, whether you follow the religion or not you are pretty much defining your ethnicity by marking Catholic on the census. Its much like fmr Yugoslavia. In my time in school and college I got to know several people who had arrived from Bosnia and Kosovo in the 90s as children, fleeing the wars. Though they all drank, didnt wear the veil (thankfully- two of them were absoloutely funkin stunning

) and their families didnt seem particularly religious re social life restrictions compared to some of the Asian/Arab and African muslims families I knew, at the same time if you asked their faith Id bet my house they would say muslim. They mightnt have been in a mosque since they arrived in Ireland, but it was the reason they were kicked out of their homeland, its something to identify with. While being, say, an Italian catholic or a French catholic carries no significant historical meaning, the same cant be said for Irish catholics or Yugoslav muslims.

Ickle Magoo

OP, I wasn't brought up with any religion & nor was I brought up in Ireland so your assumptions are way off the mark for me...there are lots of things that have no influence in my life or haven't had the opportunity to have a negative effect, I don't think that is quite the same thing as it not having the capacity to do either.

I think a lot of people in Ireland were brought up with the present system & don't actually realise how religious it actually is - I've heard a few people make the point you have, all of them Catholic Irish, or at least raised that way, lol!

Seth Brundle

My gripe is not against Catholicism nor against direct members of the Catholic Church (well not many!) but against the hypocrisy of the organisation.
it condemns masturbation, homosexuality, etc. yet protects child abusers. (the word 'protects' and not 'protected' is intentional!)

DublinWriter wrote:

The 'fat' Budda statues you typically see refer to a Japanese monk who was a precursor for Santa Clause.

does the 'fat' budda have reindeer also?

DublinWriter

Hagar wrote:

Fair enough I didn't realize that, no offence intended.
I change my vote to Santa Claus.;)

What? A Catholic saint who crept into childrens' bedrooms?

Wrong, on many PC levels!

Nehpets

DublinWriter wrote:

OP - if I was a betting man, I'd lay even odds that you're younger than 21.

um.. ou quoted me but said OP. kinda confusing. I was just quoting the OP btw.

Hagar

DublinWriter wrote:

The 'fat' Budda statues you typically see refer to a Japanese monk who was a precursor for Santa Clause.

Fair enough I didn't realize that, no offence intended.
I change my vote to Santa Claus.;)

DublinWriter

Hagar wrote:

I'm not religious but I'd be more inclined to Buddhism rather than Catholicism. I'd much rather have a cheery fat guy heading things up instead of a weedy git in a crown of thorns nailed to a couple of planks. Not a good vibe at all.

Speaking as someone who's been a practising Mahavana Buddhist for the past 12 years, I can honestly say that the Budda wasn't fat. The 'fat' Budda statues you typically see refer to a Japanese monk who was a precursor for Santa Clause. Western culture mixed up the two images and persons, much as Eastern culture might mix up John Lennon with Elvis in his 'fat' years.

Gaspode

Tha Gopher wrote:

like most of you, Ive never had any experience of it telling me what to do (apart from the pubs closing Good Friday maybe),
Discuss.....

You're kidding right?
For true Catholics, following the teachings, rules, and doctrine of their chosen religion and church is what being a good Catholic is all about.
Of course the church tells you what to do. Maybe you just werent listening or something when you went to school. What sort of school was that anyway. In my day (Sh*T I'm so old!) school was all about religion, from the morning prayers, cathecism, bible, mass, benediction (what the F**k was that about, hymn lessons, visits from the PP, retreats, you name it, the church was in class every day.

Now you can claim to be catholic on the census form or on any other form you like, but if you dont listen what the church are telling you to do, then you're catholic in name only. In my opinion, that covers the majority of catholics in this country now!

Personally, my God wears black, plays his guitar southpaw, and is call Iommi.

DublinWriter

Nehpets wrote:

"How can you hate something that, in most peoples cases, had zero influence, positive or negative, on their lives?"

OP - if I was a betting man, I'd lay even odds that you're younger than 21.

There's basically two types of Catholic church haters on here. First you have the younger types for whom Reglion-basing is cool and deregeur. Secondly, you have older farts like me who had first hand experience in the 70's of how pervasive the Catholic Church was and how they used to like 'getting them young', and in more ways than one.

However, listening to the horror stories from my Father about being educated in a South inner city Dublin Christian Brothers School in the 1950's really brings it home for me.

If you are young enough to be in the prozac generation and if you really need to develop an anger about the Catholic Church and the pain and suffering they inflicted on this country, read the biography of Archbishop McQuaid for starters.

Dave!

Hagar wrote:

I'm not religious but I'd be more inclined to Buddhim rather than Catholicism. I'd much rather have a cheery fat guy heading things up instead of a weedy git in a crown of thorns nailed to a couple of planks. Not a good vibe at all.

You should make Israel Kamakawiwo'ole your diety. He's mine!

Hagar

I'm not religious but I'd be more inclined to Buddhism rather than Catholicism. I'd much rather have a cheery fat guy heading things up instead of a weedy git in a crown of thorns nailed to a couple of planks. Not a good vibe at all.

/ Edit Spelling

nesf

I don't hate the Catholic Church, or any other religion for that matter. I'm just not a religious man and I have quite strong views about the seperation of church and state. I come from quite a religious family, but I was always encouraged to find my own path, and the only thing that really gets under my skin is when catholic morality is fostered upon others as if it was the law; or attempts to make it law will also do this to me.

That said, I don't approve of catholic bashing on here. Be warned etc.

Stephen

panda100 wrote:

I was at a talk yesterday on Aids and their was a lady speaking from Africa. At the end she said she always wanted to come to Ireland to say thanks to the people who gave her an education. She said without the nuns and priests of Ireland the vast majority of her country would still be uneducated.Think for a second how lucky you were to actually get an education rather then complaing about 'singing in the church'.

They can probably thank the Catholic church for the rampant AIDS epidemic that they're having too, what with the CONDOMS ARE EVIL teachings and all.

cornbb

panda100 wrote:

Think for a second how lucky you were to actually get an education

Sounds like something a priest would say, come to think of it

cornbb

panda100 wrote:

I was at a talk yesterday on Aids and their was a lady speaking from Africa. At the end she said she always wanted to come to Ireland to say thanks to the people who gave her an education. She said without the nuns and priests of Ireland the vast majority of her country would still be uneducated.Think for a second how lucky you were to actually get an education rather then complaing about 'singing in the church'.

It's her privilege to be grateful for her education. I'm grateful for my education, I just wish it hadn't come at the price of being "educated" about the teachings of the church. I was lucky enough to grow up in a state which could afford to educate its children, yet the irish state is neglecting its duties to provide a secular education by delegating the task of education to the catholic church, or at least did so in very recent decades. I'm not complain about "singing in the church", I'm complaining about how religious matters and dogma pervaded every aspect of my primary education.

Tha Gopher wrote:

Damn I wish Id went to your school, the above beats maths and irish any day.

I would prefer if I was educated about the facts and make up my own mind on matters of religion/spirituality. I respect people's beliefs but I think those beliefs should be taught by parents or formed as an adult, not taught in public schools.

Tha Gopher

panda100 wrote:

My understanding of catholic guilt is stuff like having sex with your boyfriend/girlfriend and then feeling guilty about it because when we were younger it was driven into us how bad sex before marriage was.
This is something I have definatly tackled with as growing up sex was never about love and expressing to someone how you feel it was a negative thing that you should never ever do unless married. However I dont blame or hate the catholic church for these issues I have to overcome. I just speak up now to my parents,priests and nuns about how wrong it is to teach that sex is evil and how a more positive and healthy promotion of sex is neccessary.

My schools were technically catholic, sex wasnt once mentioned til we were 14 odd, and even at that i cant recall ever being instructed nt to do it before marriage

User45701

I do hate the catholic church but then again i hate the muslim faith just as much along with all religous views.

i just cant understand why people would be so frightened at the thought of dying they need to create a fairy tail vision of what comes after.

Religion has caused too much pain and death in mans history and i don't think it serves any useful purpose anymore.

In the past it was needed to explain things that man was too primitive to understand but with modern understanding i see no need for lies about how we where created or what will happen when we die

Tha Gopher

Badly Drunk Boy wrote:

I was brought up as a Catholic. What's this guilt that people keep talking about?

Ive only ever heard it on films/tv, it something Irish Amercans are wracked by apparently

Particulrly hard drinking police characters for some reason.

cornbb wrote:

The Church pervaded every aspect of my primary schooling, including daily religeon classes, prayers several times a day, visits from the priest, confirmations, communions, singing in the church, pictures of Jesus, and a Bishop on the board of management.

Damn I wish Id went to your school, the above beats maths and irish any day.

Its been a while now, iirc in national school we kicked off the day with a prayer (in the last few years it was in Irish, a language so archaic and tough I doubt God even knows it). One before lunch and maybe one before we went home.

Visits from the priest? We had one per year, the religious examiner priest. It was funny, in the days leading up t it it was about the only time of year the teacher gave a rats about religion, theyd be making sure we knew all our prayers and stories etc. Why I dont know, as the examiner spent about 3 mins on religion and the next hour chatting about football. Father Trendy indeed

Pictures of Jesus on the wall? Wow, how traumatic. Out of curiousity have you been as mentally scarred by the pictures of Jesus and various popes tat ost likely hang in your grandmothers home?
Lucky for us, our school walls were coated in Pamela Anderson centrefolds from our teachers porn stash. How 90s was that!

panda100

Badly Drunk Boy wrote:

I was brought up as a Catholic. What's this guilt that people keep talking about?

My understanding of catholic guilt is stuff like having sex with your boyfriend/girlfriend and then feeling guilty about it because when we were younger it was driven into us how bad sex before marriage was.
This is something I have definatly tackled with as growing up sex was never about love and expressing to someone how you feel it was a negative thing that you should never ever do unless married. However I dont blame or hate the catholic church for these issues I have to overcome. I just speak up now to my parents,priests and nuns about how wrong it is to teach that sex is evil and how a more positive and healthy promotion of sex is neccessary.

panda100

cornbb wrote:

The Church pervaded every aspect of my primary schooling, including daily religeon classes, prayers several times a day, visits from the priest, confirmations, communions, singing in the church, pictures of Jesus, and a Bishop on the board of management. Its a disgrace that that should be the case in a public school. They could have spent thousands of hours teaching us things like, oh, facts and science and logic and stuff, instead of trying to brainwash us. I've never bitched about it on AH before but now that you mention it, yeah, I'm bitter. I wouldn't say I hate the church, I just wished they'd minded their own goddamned business when I was a vulnerable and impressionable kid. I'm only 24 btw, this wasn't all that long ago.

I was at a talk yesterday on Aids and their was a lady speaking from Africa. At the end she said she always wanted to come to Ireland to say thanks to the people who gave her an education. She said without the nuns and priests of Ireland the vast majority of her country would still be uneducated.Think for a second how lucky you were to actually get an education rather then complaing about 'singing in the church'.

I was born in 1982 but I wasnt born in Ireland though I did go to catholic schools in England. The inate hatred of the catholic church in my peers is something that has shocked me since I moved back here. I dont agree with many of the churchs teachings but I am still grateful for them for giving me a fantastic eduaction and giving me a deep spirituality which I wil alwyas appreciate.

Canis Lupus

Badly Drunk Boy wrote:

I was brought up as a Catholic. What's this guilt that people keep talking about?

That one makes me laugh as well. It appears alot on the PI board for some reason.

Badly Drunk Boy

I was brought up as a Catholic. What's this guilt that people keep talking about?

Dave!

Maybe it's something to do with the fact that the church is losing its influence in Ireland and society is becoming more secular. People are sick of the church, because they no longer believe the crap it spouts out about virgin births and miracles.

I don't think anyone's afraid (except for the people who were banged by the priests).

Karl Hungus

Tha Gopher wrote:

Discuss.....

You're just not down with today's hip god-hating kids.