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Child Item

Atlanta cops shoot innocent 92 year old woman dead

seamus

First a student gets tazered for being a little rebellious, then a 92 year old woman gets gunned down for legitimately trying to defend her home. American cops gun happy? Nah...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/22/woman.shot.ap/index.html

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Pretty retarded thing to happen alright.

lostexpectation

Hobbes wrote:

The second she fired the weapon she was a threat, the second she shot a cop she was viable to be shot at to stop her hurting anyone else.

Age shouldn't even come into it. People don't become all innocent when they get older.

Some examples:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/fogeys2/fogeys2.html

the second the plainclothes policemen kicked down her door they became a threat to her?

Thrill

Their lucky they broke into the wrong house. If a little old lady could put bullets into three highly trained cops, just think how many a young armed scumbag could have got.

The poor woman must have been scared out of her mind. Just cos someone shouts "police" at your front door doesn't necessarily mean that its a cop. Especially in the US. It could have been anyone for all she knew.

the_syco

markk06 wrote:

But nobody broke into her home...

Sorry. Missed the bit that said they had a key:rolleyes:

wow sierra

Think this story is pretty timely after about 90% of Irish people voted in some poll that it was ok to shoot an intruder. Its time for us to decide what kind of society we want. More guns = less safety - not the other way around.

SteveS

thrill wrote:

The poor woman must have been scared out of her mind. Just cos someone shouts "police" at your front door doesn't necessarily mean that its a cop. Especially in the US. It could have been anyone for all she knew.

There was a local man that purchased a police uniform and attached a flashing light to his car. He would pull over women on rural roads and rape them. He was eventually caught, but not until after he raped 8 or 9 women.

Police may use force, even lethal force under certain cirsumstances, in making an arrest or conducting a raid. Citizens may not legally resist a lawful arrest. The key here is "lawful." If the police attempt to arrest a person that has done nothing or they do not have a warrant, that person may resist arrest.

Fortunately, we do not live in a police state where people can be be arrested on a whim. Frankly, I think police conduct too many raids when they do not have to.

Manic Moran

By sheer coincidence I was arguing this exact issue with the wife last night over dinner. She's studying law, and one of her current courses is over the 4th Ammendment (Search and seizure)

I had presented several scenarios to her:

1) Policeman walking the beat hears what sounds like a breaking-and-entering in progress from a house on the other side of a fence. (Back yard). He hops over the fence to investigate. He is shot by a homeowner who just sees this guy entering his property.

2) Police serving a warrant screw up the address, and forcibly enter into a house. The homeowner shoots the first cop in the door, and is later arrested.

3) Police serving a warrant screw up the address and forcibly enter into a house. They see a homeowner with a gun, and shoot him/her.

What happens in each case?

Well, case 1 was very definitely an acquittal for the homeowner. (This case happened).

Case #2 is the same.

Case #3 apparently depends on who screwed up: If the cop serving the warrant had the right address on the warrant, but broke down the wrong door, he's at fault. If the address on the warrant had a typo, he was acting in good faith, and should be immune from prosecution.

I'm sure the cops would have been shouting that they were police, especially if they were in plain clothes

Unfortunately, there have been a spate of instances around here where exactly where this sort of thing happened: Bashing of doors, people yelling 'Police! Search warrant!' often in police-type attire, who are in fact nothing of the sort. They're banking on the fact that a law-abiding homeowner isn't going to shoot at a cop. The general rule of thumb in such a situation is that if you know you've done nothing wrong, and there is no reason for the police to be serving a warrant, it's a fair bet that the people breaking in have no right to be there.

NTM

abetarrush

How would a 92 Year old woman have such a good aim?

And how did she have a gun so handy?

what a crock of sh!t

somethins not right there

Manic Moran

abetarrush wrote:

How would a 92 Year old woman have such a good aim?

Depends on what she used. If a shotgun, then accuracy isn't particularly difficult. Otherwise, maybe she practised?

And how did she have a gun so handy?

Could have been in her pocket, by her chair, whatever. I don't usually go that far, myself, but that's more an issue of not bothering to have gone to the shop for an IWB holster. I've been meaning to do it for a while now. My pistol doesn't do me any good right now unless I happen to be in my bedroom at the time.

somethins not right there

Quite correct. Somehow the cops ended up beating down on a 92-year-old's door. Someone screwed up, and I rather hope some lessons were learned.

NTM

The_Minister

Is it just me, or is the niece the same woman from that Michael Moore film.
You know the one.
"That man was my life. I need to know what happened to him. So its very important" - husband killed in 9/11.
It really looks like her, and she has the same voice.

Manic Moran

Interesting. I've had the time to browse the discussions on the various American boards I'm on, and I'm going to retract some of my 'Screwed up' comments.

The cops bashing in the door might at least have worn uniforms. Apparently they just wore vests with 'Police' written on them. That's the cops' bad, if the woman was actually stopping to try to identify whoever was coming in.

On the other hand, the cops are adamant that they had the right target location, had good grounds for the warrant (Undercover cop had made a buy there shortly before), and obtained suspected drugs at the location.

The best estimate so far, though the investigation obviously will be a few days, is that one of the woman's younger relatives (eg grandson) was dealing drugs out of her house, probably without her knowing it. Apparently abusing an elder's home is not an unknown thing. If that is the case, then the blame, such as it is, for her death lies at her own relative's doorstep.

Weapon used was apparently a six-shooter. That was excellent shooting by her. One cop was hit three times. Most people wouldn't be that accurate.

NTM

lostexpectation

Manic Moran wrote:

Interesting. I've had the time to browse the discussions on the various American boards I'm on, and I'm going to retract some of my 'Screwed up' comments.

The cops bashing in the door might at least have worn uniforms. Apparently they just wore vests with 'Police' written on them. That's the cops' bad, if the woman was actually stopping to try to identify whoever was coming in.

On the other hand, the cops are adamant that they had the right target location, had good grounds for the warrant (Undercover cop had made a buy there shortly before), and obtained suspected drugs at the location.

The best estimate so far, though the investigation obviously will be a few days, is that one of the woman's younger relatives (eg grandson) was dealing drugs out of her house, probably without her knowing it. Apparently abusing an elder's home is not an unknown thing. If that is the case, then the blame, such as it is, for her death lies at her own relative's doorstep.

Weapon used was apparently a six-shooter. That was excellent shooting by her. One cop was hit three times. Most people wouldn't be that accurate.

NTM

questions is who would mcdowell and FG back?

Manic Moran

Smith and Wesson. The only party which worked as they should have.

NTM

Bicky

Tragic.
Very similar story from 2002 in which a black man called Cory Maye killed the white son of the town's police chief. Maye lived in a duplex with his 18month old daughter and the warrant was for the resident of the other apartment. He had no record and was asleep when his door was kicked in. At the time the police said there was no drugs in his possession but later said they found traced of marijuana.

There is a lot to this story and it is a good read.

theAgitator
wiki

Seems that mrs johnston was living in fear and a younger relative had possibly been using her house as a place to sell drugs. If that was the case then yipee, another victory for the ****ing american jutice system and its war on drugs and black people.
link

Conar

Did anyone listen to the second video to the end?

The reporter finishes with something like.....

"The police are not releasing information about the officers but we have managed to find out that 2 of them were white and one was african american"

I mean WTF?????
What in the hell has that got to do with anything?
No wonder that country is such a mess if the colour of the police officers is relevant in a situation like this.

**Edited for spelling mistakes"

Houston Griffin

Always nice to see my city make international news... I don't have any insight into what really happened, but here's what the local TV news said five minutes ago (according to the police): Yesterday, undercover cops bought drugs from a man at that home. There is now a warrant out on that man. The police had a "no knock" warrant (a hotly debated issue in this city for years), but they did knock.

Police issues are complicated in Atlanta because the greater metro area of Atlanta (approximately five million in population) actually consists of several cities and there are five or six counties that make up the metro Atlanta area. This means there are many different city and county police forces, some better than others. I'm not sure which police juristiction this incident falls under. Earlier reports I heard today said it happened in DeKalb County, but the TV just said it happened in Fulton County, which would mean it most likely happened in official city limits. If that's the case, it's well known the Atlanta PD has some problems. For one thing, there's a lot of cronyism and a lot of unqualified people get promoted to high positions. The last Atlanta mayor appointed his personal chauffer as the Atlanta Chief of Police.

Conar

Houston Griffin wrote:

For one thing, there's a lot of cronyism and a lot of unqualified people get promoted to high positions. The last Atlanta mayor appointed his personal chauffer as the Atlanta Chief of Police.

Ah man, you have to be joking!
Please tell me you're joking!

***EDIT***

Seems to be some truth to that.
Found this on the web:

"During the past administration of Mayor Bill Campbell, who is now, by the way, awaiting trial on corruption charges, the leadership of the Atlanta Police Department became a joke. The department was headed by a woman who was, in essence, a chauffeur for a prior police chief."

Houston Griffin

Conar wrote:

I mean WTF?????
What in the hell has that got to do with anything?
No wonder that country is such a mess if the colour of the police officers is relevant in a situation like this.

Race is a very hot topic in Atlanta. Fulton County (by which I mean the official Atlanta city limits) is a over 80% black. There has not been a white mayor, police chief, fire chief, ect in Atlanta since the early 1970s. Most whites (such as myself) live in the counties surrounding Atlanta, although we consider ourselves ATLiens as well. This incident happened in a majority black area, where a majority of the police, and all the police leadership is black, so I doubt this will turn out to become a highly racialized incident. If this had happened to a black person in my part of the city, it probably would turn into a highly racial event.

Houston Griffin

Yeah, Bill Campbell was a real piece of work. He and his crew ripped off the Olympic Committee bigtime back in 1996. After he left office, he was hit with a variety of bribery and racketeering charges from federal investigators. He played the race card hard and was acquitted of most of the charges by a local jury, but he did convicted of tax evasion, which he is in prison for right now. I always thought that was funny; the jury acquitted him of any crimes that would explain how he amassed millions of dollars his salary and investments couldn't account for, but convicted him of not paying taxes on the millions of dollars he had no way of explaing how he acquired.

Manic Moran

On a related note...

Wednesday, November 15, 2006
No charges filed in officer’s shooting

Grand jury won’t indict car dealer

By Kevin Keenan TELEGRAM & GAZETTE STAFF

WORCESTER— Car dealer Mark P. Ragsdale will not be charged with shooting a Shrewsbury police officer in Mr. Ragsdale’s home in July, according to a spokeswoman for District Attorney John J. Conte.

A Worcester County grand jury returned a “no bill” Monday, meaning Mr. Ragsdale was not indicted, after jurors heard evidence gathered for the case. Mr. Ragsdale could not be reached for comment yesterday.

The shooting occurred at 2:30 a.m. July 14 in Mr. Ragsdale’s home, 17A Farmington Drive, Shrewsbury. When Officers Stephen Rice and Ryan Chartrand went there to investigate a burglar alarm, Mr. Ragsdale shot Officer Rice in the abdomen, according to police.

A neighbor had let the two officers into Mr. Ragsdale’s home after they searched outside. The neighbor, who had a key and was on the alarm company’s list of people to notify regarding the home, told police that Mr. Ragsdale was on vacation and that the home should have been empty.

Police were unaware that Mr. Ragsdale had come home. According to the police, Mr. Ragsdale told the alarm company that he set off the alarm, but the alarm company did not notify police.

Police said the officers, who were in full uniform and arrived in a marked cruiser, noticed a dim light on the second floor and saw a shadowy figure. They entered the home to search it and Officer Rice was shot as he reached the second floor. Police said Mr. Ragsdale’s wife and children were on vacation at the time.

Officer Rice, a one-year member of the force, was seriously injured and hospitalized for a week.

Mr. Ragsdale, president and chief executive officer of the Ragsdale Motor Group network of auto dealerships in Shrewsbury and Spencer, was licensed to carry the Smith & Wesson semiautomatic handgun used in the shooting.

The investigation was handled by Shrewsbury police, the district attorney’s office and state police. Shrewsbury Police Chief A. Wayne Sampson could not be reached for comment yesterday. At the time of the shooting, Chief Sampson said the shooting would be thoroughly investigated, including an internal review of police tactics in response to the shooting, to ensure future safety of police officers. How about a policy of not responding to alarm calls at the Ragsdale home?

Ray McGrath, political director for the International Brotherhood of Police Officers, which represents Shrewsbury patrolmen, said members of the department were shocked when they heard that Mr. Ragsdale was not indicted. He said he thought the investigation was mishandled by Chief Sampson and that Mr. Ragsdale should have been arrested and charged the night of the shooting. He said Officer Rice “was an inch away from death” and said it was “really unbelievable” that Mr. Ragsdale was not charged with anything.

“This is a real serious blow to the Shrewsbury Police Department and to law enforcement itself. The police community as a whole will be very surprised,” Mr. McGrath said. “Accidental or not a person receiving no punishment for that is beyond comprehension.”

Mr. McGrath said Mr. Ragsdale’s position as “a person of influence” in Worcester County could have had an effect on the grand jury.

“A person with influence in the community got away with a crime that a regular citizen wouldn’t get away with,” Mr. McGrath said.

NTM

dave2pvd

Houston Griffin wrote:

Race is a very hot topic in Atlanta.

Perhaps not so much today. I'd say the media love to make out that it is though. Race is a far bigger issue in the conservative Northern suburbs. Where black people are not so welcome.

Houston Griffin wrote:

Fulton County (by which I mean the official Atlanta city limits) is a over 80% black.

Might want to check your facts there. Fulton Co in the 2000 census was ~60% black. Today the figure is less due to the poulation boom of the downtown area and inner suburbs (I live in Grant Park).

Houston Griffin wrote:

Most whites (such as myself) live in the counties surrounding Atlanta, although we consider ourselves ATLiens as well.

Well, those of us who live inside the city consider you a suburbanite. An 'OTP'er. (Outside the Perimeter). Not an Atlantan.

Back to the core of the post: the cops had the right house. Unfortunately, there was drug dealing going on in the old ladies' home.

Houston Griffin

dave2pvd wrote:

Well, those of us who live inside the city consider you a suburbanite. An 'OTP'er. (Outside the Perimeter). Not an Atlantan.

I wouldn't say I live in Atlanta to someone who lives in the greater metro area, but it's much simplier to say Atlanta to people who aren't familiar with the area. Until six months ago, I lived a couple of blocks from GSU (the lofts at JW Dobbs and Peach Tree Center). My folks are from Cabbagetown. I still work downtown. Most people I encounter in Fulton Co. aren't even from Georgia, and I really don't care what transplants consider me.

Houston Griffin

dave2pvd wrote:

Perhaps not so much today. I'd say the media love to make out that it is though. Race is a far bigger issue in the conservative Northern suburbs. Where black people are not so welcome.

I suppose race issues aren't any worse in Atlanta than anywhere else is the US, but in my personal experience, there have been several official complaints of racial discrimination at my job in the two years I have worked there. As for blacks not being welcome in the northern suburbs, admittedly I'm new to Cobb County, but I don't really get that impression. They probably just prefer the historically black areas.

dave2pvd

Houston Griffin wrote:

I suppose race issues aren't any worse in Atlanta than anywhere else is the US, but in my personal experience, there have been several official complaints of racial discrimination at my job in the two years I have worked there. As for blacks not being welcome in the northern suburbs, admittedly I'm new to Cobb County, but I don't really get that impression. They probably just prefer the historically black areas.

Well, my wife's folks were neighbors of your folks! Down the street in Grant Park.

Cobb is where I work. In fairness, it can be a very bigoted place. Cobb was the county that had Olympic events eligibility withdrawn - because the Christian 'right' that make up the local gov't decided to make some sort of motion outlining their rejection of homosexuality. The IOC took note; Cobb got no events.

Your mention of several official complaints gives me a fair idea of where you might work.... these were complaints that Jesse Jackson rode bandwagon on?

MrJoeSoap

Haven't bothered reading the thread, but the use of the word "innocent" in the thread title is slightly misleading.

AdMMM

I read that the gun used was a six shooter and according to someone earlier in this thread. I'm going to assume that a 92 year old woman wouldn't have the reaction times of a 20 year old, nor would she have been as fast to pull the trigger repeatedly. This means that the cops didn't shoot her immediately once they were shot at. It isn't as if the cops just recklessly opened fire without thinking. They suffered 3 casualties before coming to the conclusion that they must incapacitate her. I'm guessing that for a 92 year old woman, it wouldn't take much shock or blood loss to be life threatning and I highly doubt that the cops shot to kill.

Houston Griffin

dave2pvd wrote:

Your mention of several official complaints gives me a fair idea of where you might work.... these were complaints that Jesse Jackson rode bandwagon on?

Probably not what you're thinking of. I work for a government agency (I'd prefer not to say which one; lets just say it starts with an I, ends with an S, and has an R in it...), so these issues are pretty much kept internal and not really reported to the public. These complaints go both ways racially and probably have more to do with the nature of the federal office environment. What usually happens is that someone doesn't get the promotion they wanted, so file a discrimination complaint against their manager of a different race (if the manager is the same race, they'll claim some other form of harrassment). Under the current guidelines, there are pretty much no consequences for the accuser if they're proved to be a liar, so these sort of complaints are fairly common.

Cobb Co is generic and boring (I live in Vinings), but it's the right place for me right now. I went back to school earlier this year, so between work and school it's probably best I live in a place without a lot of exciting distractions. I also got a great deal on a house with a big yard. That loft downtown was a big drain financially.

Manic Moran

Haven't bothered reading the thread, but the use of the word "innocent" in the thread title is slightly misleading.

In fairness, she probably was innocent. I doubt she was dealing drugs, or even knew about them. In effect, she was collaterol damage in the fight between the cops and the druggies.

I highly doubt that the cops shot to kill

Yes they do.

"Shoot to wound" is an extremely rare event, and pretty much exclusively the purview of snipers in certain situations. A street cop "shoots to stop", which usually means the target is on the ground, perforated.

NTM

Chucky the tree

Manic Moran wrote:

In fairness, she probably was innocent.

NTM

She was innocent until she shot a cop 3 times, then she was fair game.

[Deleted User]

Just read another version of this story. Atlanta has some of the highest crime rates in the USA. Many old folks live in fear. The police who smashed down her door were not in uniforms but in street clothes. She many not have heard the earlier warnings (loud telly or poor hearing at 92?). She could have thought they were coming to assault her, or rob her, or whatever (which is not all that uncommon in Atlanta), and pulled a gun to defend herself?