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Child Item

Atlanta cops shoot innocent 92 year old woman dead

seamus

First a student gets tazered for being a little rebellious, then a 92 year old woman gets gunned down for legitimately trying to defend her home. American cops gun happy? Nah...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/22/woman.shot.ap/index.html

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Houston Griffin

Conar wrote:

I mean WTF?????
What in the hell has that got to do with anything?
No wonder that country is such a mess if the colour of the police officers is relevant in a situation like this.

Race is a very hot topic in Atlanta. Fulton County (by which I mean the official Atlanta city limits) is a over 80% black. There has not been a white mayor, police chief, fire chief, ect in Atlanta since the early 1970s. Most whites (such as myself) live in the counties surrounding Atlanta, although we consider ourselves ATLiens as well. This incident happened in a majority black area, where a majority of the police, and all the police leadership is black, so I doubt this will turn out to become a highly racialized incident. If this had happened to a black person in my part of the city, it probably would turn into a highly racial event.

Conar

Houston Griffin wrote:

For one thing, there's a lot of cronyism and a lot of unqualified people get promoted to high positions. The last Atlanta mayor appointed his personal chauffer as the Atlanta Chief of Police.

Ah man, you have to be joking!
Please tell me you're joking!

***EDIT***

Seems to be some truth to that.
Found this on the web:

"During the past administration of Mayor Bill Campbell, who is now, by the way, awaiting trial on corruption charges, the leadership of the Atlanta Police Department became a joke. The department was headed by a woman who was, in essence, a chauffeur for a prior police chief."

Houston Griffin

Always nice to see my city make international news... I don't have any insight into what really happened, but here's what the local TV news said five minutes ago (according to the police): Yesterday, undercover cops bought drugs from a man at that home. There is now a warrant out on that man. The police had a "no knock" warrant (a hotly debated issue in this city for years), but they did knock.

Police issues are complicated in Atlanta because the greater metro area of Atlanta (approximately five million in population) actually consists of several cities and there are five or six counties that make up the metro Atlanta area. This means there are many different city and county police forces, some better than others. I'm not sure which police juristiction this incident falls under. Earlier reports I heard today said it happened in DeKalb County, but the TV just said it happened in Fulton County, which would mean it most likely happened in official city limits. If that's the case, it's well known the Atlanta PD has some problems. For one thing, there's a lot of cronyism and a lot of unqualified people get promoted to high positions. The last Atlanta mayor appointed his personal chauffer as the Atlanta Chief of Police.

Conar

Did anyone listen to the second video to the end?

The reporter finishes with something like.....

"The police are not releasing information about the officers but we have managed to find out that 2 of them were white and one was african american"

I mean WTF?????
What in the hell has that got to do with anything?
No wonder that country is such a mess if the colour of the police officers is relevant in a situation like this.

**Edited for spelling mistakes"

Bicky

Tragic.
Very similar story from 2002 in which a black man called Cory Maye killed the white son of the town's police chief. Maye lived in a duplex with his 18month old daughter and the warrant was for the resident of the other apartment. He had no record and was asleep when his door was kicked in. At the time the police said there was no drugs in his possession but later said they found traced of marijuana.

There is a lot to this story and it is a good read.

theAgitator
wiki

Seems that mrs johnston was living in fear and a younger relative had possibly been using her house as a place to sell drugs. If that was the case then yipee, another victory for the ****ing american jutice system and its war on drugs and black people.
link

Manic Moran

Smith and Wesson. The only party which worked as they should have.

NTM

lostexpectation

Manic Moran wrote:

Interesting. I've had the time to browse the discussions on the various American boards I'm on, and I'm going to retract some of my 'Screwed up' comments.

The cops bashing in the door might at least have worn uniforms. Apparently they just wore vests with 'Police' written on them. That's the cops' bad, if the woman was actually stopping to try to identify whoever was coming in.

On the other hand, the cops are adamant that they had the right target location, had good grounds for the warrant (Undercover cop had made a buy there shortly before), and obtained suspected drugs at the location.

The best estimate so far, though the investigation obviously will be a few days, is that one of the woman's younger relatives (eg grandson) was dealing drugs out of her house, probably without her knowing it. Apparently abusing an elder's home is not an unknown thing. If that is the case, then the blame, such as it is, for her death lies at her own relative's doorstep.

Weapon used was apparently a six-shooter. That was excellent shooting by her. One cop was hit three times. Most people wouldn't be that accurate.

NTM

questions is who would mcdowell and FG back?

Manic Moran

Interesting. I've had the time to browse the discussions on the various American boards I'm on, and I'm going to retract some of my 'Screwed up' comments.

The cops bashing in the door might at least have worn uniforms. Apparently they just wore vests with 'Police' written on them. That's the cops' bad, if the woman was actually stopping to try to identify whoever was coming in.

On the other hand, the cops are adamant that they had the right target location, had good grounds for the warrant (Undercover cop had made a buy there shortly before), and obtained suspected drugs at the location.

The best estimate so far, though the investigation obviously will be a few days, is that one of the woman's younger relatives (eg grandson) was dealing drugs out of her house, probably without her knowing it. Apparently abusing an elder's home is not an unknown thing. If that is the case, then the blame, such as it is, for her death lies at her own relative's doorstep.

Weapon used was apparently a six-shooter. That was excellent shooting by her. One cop was hit three times. Most people wouldn't be that accurate.

NTM

The_Minister

Is it just me, or is the niece the same woman from that Michael Moore film.
You know the one.
"That man was my life. I need to know what happened to him. So its very important" - husband killed in 9/11.
It really looks like her, and she has the same voice.

Manic Moran

abetarrush wrote:

How would a 92 Year old woman have such a good aim?

Depends on what she used. If a shotgun, then accuracy isn't particularly difficult. Otherwise, maybe she practised?

And how did she have a gun so handy?

Could have been in her pocket, by her chair, whatever. I don't usually go that far, myself, but that's more an issue of not bothering to have gone to the shop for an IWB holster. I've been meaning to do it for a while now. My pistol doesn't do me any good right now unless I happen to be in my bedroom at the time.

somethins not right there

Quite correct. Somehow the cops ended up beating down on a 92-year-old's door. Someone screwed up, and I rather hope some lessons were learned.

NTM

abetarrush

How would a 92 Year old woman have such a good aim?

And how did she have a gun so handy?

what a crock of sh!t

somethins not right there

Manic Moran

By sheer coincidence I was arguing this exact issue with the wife last night over dinner. She's studying law, and one of her current courses is over the 4th Ammendment (Search and seizure)

I had presented several scenarios to her:

1) Policeman walking the beat hears what sounds like a breaking-and-entering in progress from a house on the other side of a fence. (Back yard). He hops over the fence to investigate. He is shot by a homeowner who just sees this guy entering his property.

2) Police serving a warrant screw up the address, and forcibly enter into a house. The homeowner shoots the first cop in the door, and is later arrested.

3) Police serving a warrant screw up the address and forcibly enter into a house. They see a homeowner with a gun, and shoot him/her.

What happens in each case?

Well, case 1 was very definitely an acquittal for the homeowner. (This case happened).

Case #2 is the same.

Case #3 apparently depends on who screwed up: If the cop serving the warrant had the right address on the warrant, but broke down the wrong door, he's at fault. If the address on the warrant had a typo, he was acting in good faith, and should be immune from prosecution.

I'm sure the cops would have been shouting that they were police, especially if they were in plain clothes

Unfortunately, there have been a spate of instances around here where exactly where this sort of thing happened: Bashing of doors, people yelling 'Police! Search warrant!' often in police-type attire, who are in fact nothing of the sort. They're banking on the fact that a law-abiding homeowner isn't going to shoot at a cop. The general rule of thumb in such a situation is that if you know you've done nothing wrong, and there is no reason for the police to be serving a warrant, it's a fair bet that the people breaking in have no right to be there.

NTM

SteveS

thrill wrote:

The poor woman must have been scared out of her mind. Just cos someone shouts "police" at your front door doesn't necessarily mean that its a cop. Especially in the US. It could have been anyone for all she knew.

There was a local man that purchased a police uniform and attached a flashing light to his car. He would pull over women on rural roads and rape them. He was eventually caught, but not until after he raped 8 or 9 women.

Police may use force, even lethal force under certain cirsumstances, in making an arrest or conducting a raid. Citizens may not legally resist a lawful arrest. The key here is "lawful." If the police attempt to arrest a person that has done nothing or they do not have a warrant, that person may resist arrest.

Fortunately, we do not live in a police state where people can be be arrested on a whim. Frankly, I think police conduct too many raids when they do not have to.

wow sierra

Think this story is pretty timely after about 90% of Irish people voted in some poll that it was ok to shoot an intruder. Its time for us to decide what kind of society we want. More guns = less safety - not the other way around.

the_syco

markk06 wrote:

But nobody broke into her home...

Sorry. Missed the bit that said they had a key:rolleyes:

Thrill

Their lucky they broke into the wrong house. If a little old lady could put bullets into three highly trained cops, just think how many a young armed scumbag could have got.

The poor woman must have been scared out of her mind. Just cos someone shouts "police" at your front door doesn't necessarily mean that its a cop. Especially in the US. It could have been anyone for all she knew.

lostexpectation

Hobbes wrote:

The second she fired the weapon she was a threat, the second she shot a cop she was viable to be shot at to stop her hurting anyone else.

Age shouldn't even come into it. People don't become all innocent when they get older.

Some examples:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/fogeys2/fogeys2.html

the second the plainclothes policemen kicked down her door they became a threat to her?

Pretty retarded thing to happen alright.

RasTa

markk06 wrote:

But nobody broke into her home.... the police are allowed to enter a property if they believe a crime is being committed under law of trespass... Obviously they thought there was something going on when they were raiding the house

Yeah and they got the wrong house, it happens..... alot.

markk06

CiaranC wrote:

Except its not murder when an armed individual breaks into your home in most US states.

But nobody broke into her home.... the police are allowed to enter a property if they believe a crime is being committed under law of trespass... Obviously they thought there was something going on when they were raiding the house

sharonlarkin

I think its awful for both the old woman and the police. Maybe she was deaf and didn't hear them shouting. Maybe she just saw men bursting in the door waving guns and she defended herself. MAYBE

CiaranC

Is it true that all 300 million US Americans are identical in their behavior, attitudes, religion, culture, race, heritage, education, social & economic status, gender, generational orientation, and notions of fair play? That all would agree with the way this old woman was treated?

Well, obviously not all, just most.

Dragan

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

Is it true that all 300 million US Americans are identical in their behavior, attitudes, religion, culture, race, heritage, education, social & economic status, gender, generational orientation, and notions of fair play?

Yes?

[Deleted User]

The Scientist wrote:

Americans.....

Is it true that all 300 million US Americans are identical in their behavior, attitudes, religion, culture, race, heritage, education, social & economic status, gender, generational orientation, and notions of fair play? That all would agree with the way this old woman was treated?

Hobbes

The second she fired the weapon she was a threat, the second she shot a cop she was viable to be shot at to stop her hurting anyone else.

Age shouldn't even come into it. People don't become all innocent when they get older.

Some examples:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/fogeys2/fogeys2.html

CiaranC

Except its not murder when an armed individual breaks into your home in most US states.

MarkR

Actually - she wasn't innocent. At least not once she started firing! Lets see, that's three counts of attempted murder of cops, depending on the state I think it's death or 25+ years to life. Course at that age she'd barely have time to change into her orange jump suit before she shuffled off this mortal coil...

Also, what if it had been someone else who had to force the door? What if it had been paramedics checking to see was she ok after someone reported concerns for her?

Wouldn't like to sell cookies in her neighborhood!

[Deleted User]

Some americans are pretty crazy
and too fond of the ol' guns

vorbis

tragic story, but you can't really blame the police. She shot at them three times, not a wise thing to do over here!

markk06

In fairness to the police they didn't know at the time that they had the wrong info... All they knew was that they were being shot at... what did you expect them to do?

She deserved it in my opinion.. "little old lady??"

And yes she was "innocent" of whatever the cops were raiding her house for but the cops shot a 92 year old woman who was after shooting three of them.