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Where is respect for elders gone

dbnavan

I was out mowing my lawn today when I saw some kids throwing stones, so when of my neighbours asked them to stop when a 6/7 year old not from our estate turned around and told him "f**k off or you'll get the next one to the head" , my kids would say something like that once in their lifetime, and it would be a long time before they got outside the front door again.

I have only moved in so I know hardly anyone. I was shocked and speechless, I mean what can you do, apparently most of the kids come from "unapproachable families". The general language I hear out on the footpath is unreal.

Also had lunch with an old school pal of mine last week, who is now a secondary school teacher, he says he is a constant target of verbal expletives and there is little or nothing can be down as the kids don't care, and it is very hard to suspend and almost impossible to expel now.

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Karoma

Ruu_Old

Back in my day if you used the f word, a clip on the ear ye would get and a wrap on the knuckles to follow.:(
Respect for elders? What about respect for anyone? It's be gone a long time ago now.

dbnavan

Karoma wrote:

<Insert standard form reply of "zomg" to yet another dbnavan thread about the moral decline of civilisation and lack of respect shown in interpersonal communications>

Mature

[Deleted User]

dbnavan wrote:

Also had lunch with an old school pal of mine last week, who is now a secondary school teacher, he says he is a constant target of verbal expletives and there is little or nothing can be down as the kids don't care, and it is very hard to suspend and almost impossible to expel now.

Not sure about that now, I'm out of secondary school 4 years now but from talking to my mate's brothers who go there, it has actually gotten stricter.

dbnavan

Ruu wrote:

Back in my day if you used the f word, a clip on the ear ye would get and a wrap on the knuckles to follow.:(
Respect for elders? What about respect for anyone? It's be gone a long time ago now.

I wouldnt advoacte phyiscal punishment, nor do I beleive I can fix society, but it just makes me worried about the possibility of teaching my own children respect when this is the type of kids they will listen to?

And yes I agree it is a matter of respect in general.

dbnavan

Myth wrote:

Not sure about that now, I'm out of secondary school 4 years now but from talking to my mate's brothers who go there, it has actually gotten stricter.

Schools differ from school to school not going to argue the opinions of a mates brother vs a school teacher who I know.

slipss

Yeah, I do think it is terrible the way kids think they can get away with anything, especially with the elderly. But you don't give a very clear explanation of the situation so i can't really comment on it. You don't mention the elderly, you don't say where or at what the kids were throwing stones.

Besides that there are a few things that caught my attention in your post, first when you say your kids would do that once in their lifetime and then never again. How would you know your kids did it in the first place, maybe they do, maybe they do it in an estate thier not from so no one recognises them like the 6/7 yr old you mentioned. Second saying a whole family is unapproachable is a bit odd to me, maybe they react badly when approached over something because they hear people saying "oh yeah that family is an unapproachable, bunch of scumbags" when they're out and so are instantly on the defensive when someone knocks on thier door saying "your kids are a disgrace". Thirdly(sc) just bcause someone might use what you describe as unreal language it doesn't mean they are violent of anything like that, maybe they just realise that fukk is just a four letter word like gosh, or damn or Jeez and anyonew that is offended by it is being a bit uptight.

P.S Obvioulsy the word fukk was meant to read f u c k.

Ruu_Old

You can only do so much with your kids then let them find their own way, they will make their own judgements most of the time and hopefully pick the right direction.

dbnavan

slipss wrote:

Yeah, I do think it is terrible the way kids think they can get away with anything, especially with the elderly. But you don't give a very clear explanation of the situation so i can't really comment on it. You don't mention the elderly, you don't say where or at what the kids were throwing stones.

Besides that there are a few things that caught my attention in your post, first when you say your kids would do that once in their lifetime and then never again. How would you know your kids did it in the first place, maybe they do, maybe they do it in an estate thier not from so no one recognises them like the 6/7 yr old you mentioned. Second saying a whole family is unapproachable is a bit odd to me, maybe they react badly when approached over something because they hear people saying "oh yeah that family is an unapproachable, bunch of scumbags" when they're out and so are instantly on the defensive when someone knocks on thier door saying "your kids are a disgrace". Thirdly(sc) just bcause someone might use what you describe as unreal language it doesn't mean they are violent of anything like that, maybe they just realise that fukk is just a four letter word like gosh, or damn or Jeez and anyonew that is offended by it is being a bit uptight.

I never mentioned elderly, I said elders,

They where throwing stones in the direction of my neighbours car.

When did I associate bad language with Violence? Having a problem with a 10 year old telling a 30 something yearold to "f**k off" isnt exactly being uptight IMO

[Deleted User]

dbnavan wrote:

Schools differ from school to school not going to argue the opinions of a mates brother vs a school teacher who I know.

Definitely, was just giving a perspective.

slipss

dbnavan wrote:

I never mentioned elderly, I said elders,

They where throwing stones in the direction of my neighbours car.

When did I associate bad language with Violence? Having a problem with a 10 year old telling a 30 something yearold to "f**k off" isnt exactly being uptight IMO

Yes thats what I said, you never mentioned the elderly. If your going to get into semantics (whatever that means) then at least do it right.

Drax

Karoma wrote:

<Insert standard form reply of "zomg" to yet another dbnavan thread about the moral decline of civilisation and lack of respect shown in interpersonal communications>

Ah yes... "moderation" at its very best.

Maybe some people these days still have an ounce of decency left in them. The amount of arrogance, ignorance and blatant disregard for other people in society these days IS unreal. If I heard that language coming from a kid to a grown-up, no matter what the situation was, I would be be shocked, almost to the point of saying something to the kid myself. Kids get away with murder these days. A lot of it is to do with the the media etc, but also the fact that parents give their kids a lot more freedom. The work f*ck has become commonplace on tv and used more in everyday language but parents couldnt be arsed laying down the law in regards to bad language.

Society is changing in this country.... for the worse. I think money and having it is one of the root causes of it. Because people have gotten so used to having and getting what they want it filters down to all levels...

Sam Vimes

slipss wrote:

Yes thats what I said, you never mentioned the elderly. If your going to get into semantics (whatever that means) then at least do it right.

he said elders as in "people older than the children", not "eldery people". you misunderstood him, hes not "getting into semantics" as you put it

Archeron

There is a fair number of horrible disrespectful kids out there, but to be entirely honest, for every nasty little kid I encounter, I encounter ten or twenty who are polite, friendly and genuinely nice well raised children who DO have respect for their elders.
Personally, I think that a lot of people tend to look at things differently when they grow up than they did when they were younger. OK, there's less fear of certain authority figures in modern Ireland, (such as the church) but overall, I dont think there is a massive problem. There will always be the bad apples, and God knows I have encountered them myself, but I wouldnt let the occasional bad experience sway my view of society as a whole.
My own parents often talk of life growing up in Dublin city in the forties, and they tell stories of everyday behaviour that would make todays kids look like angels.
A lot does have to do with the kids in your immediate area, and I admit I did have a low opinion of most kids when I lived in an area where I was surrounded by them. Now, I live in a much more mature area with no kids around, so I find it easier to step back and avoid generalising the way I used to.

oRlyYaRly

So do we blame for this outrageous lapse in decent behaviour?THE PARENTS? THE GOVERNMENT? THE MEDIA?

THE children themselves?

Sam Vimes

oRlyYaRly wrote:

So do we blame for this outrageous lapse in decent behaviour?THE PARENTS? THE GOVERNMENT? THE MEDIA?

THE children themselves?

if i found out my child* spoke like that to an adult they wouldn't see the light of day until they had rickets. children learn how to act from the people around them. if their parents don't make it absolutely clear what's acceptable and whats not, they won't know

*i don't have children, i'm speaking hypothetically

Drax

Commander Vimes wrote:

if i found out my child spoke like that to an adult they wouldn't see the light of day until they had rickets.

Exactly. Parents dont discipline their kids to the same extent as when we were growing up. Yea you will get people arguing that this is better. I would have no problem smacking my own child if it put manners on them. But that is a different discussion.

My opinions are based on the way I was brought up. Imagine how these kids who are telling older people to fúck off now are going to raise their kids!...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

oRlyYaRly wrote:

So do we blame for this outrageous lapse in decent behaviour?THE PARENTS? THE GOVERNMENT? THE MEDIA?

THE children themselves?

How about society? We created the society in which this exists. And now we stick our heads in the sand pretending that, because the problem didn't exist in OUR day and well it's not OUR our fault because we can't hit our kids any more, it's nothing to do with us.

Mrs_Doyle

My little sis, aged 11, came in the door the other day, and told me that a group of boys had been throwing stones at her, and her friends, while they played on the green.
In typical big sis mode, I asked where the boys were, she pointed them out to me, there was 3 of them, aged 11-13, and I walked over to them:

Mrs_Doyle: Hey, were you throwing stones at those girls?

Biggest Kid: No!

Mrs_Doyle: Well they say you were, and they don't make a habit of lying. Your not to bother them again.

Biggest Kid: *Snorts* Ha, why, what are you going to do about?

*I thinks to myself, 'eh, what am I going to do about it?'

Mrs_Doyle: I'll tell your parents

Biggest Kid: Ha, yeah right, my ma would dance on your fcuking head!

*change of tactic*

Mrs_Doyle: She would, yeah, if she got the fcuking head on it's own!
Now come here to me, if I see you anywhere near those girls again, I'll break your fcuking legs, and before you threatening me with your auld one, remember, I know your ma, and if she knew you were mouthing out of you like that she'd break your face, and rightly so.
Now get the fcuk off our green and go back to where you came from, your not wanted around here

Biggest Kid: Jesus, relax woman, we were only having a laugh

Mrs_Doyle: GO HOME!

Biggest Kid: We're going!

And off they went.
Now, I just want to make clear, I am not at all proud of the way I spoke to that child, if anything I felt common and brash, and ashamed of myself - but I have to say, it seemed to be the only way to actually deal with him.

When I was a kid, if any of the neighbours told us to behave, or what not, we would never answer them back - we would be so afraid that they would tell our parents on us that we would pretty much do as we were told, and sharpish.
This kid had no fear of his parents, he actually threatened me with his mother - how screwed up is that??????

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Mrs_Doyle wrote:

My little sis, aged 11, came in the door the other day, and told me that a group of boys had been throwing stones at her, and her friends, while they played on the green.
In typical big sis mode, I asked where the boys were, she pointed them out to me, there was 3 of them, aged 11-13, and I walked over to them:

Mrs_Doyle: Hey, were you throwing stones at those girls?

Biggest Kid: No!

Mrs_Doyle: Well they say you were, and they don't make a habit of lying. Your not to bother them again.

Biggest Kid: *Snorts* Ha, why, what are you going to do about?

*I thinks to myself, 'eh, what am I going to do about it?'

Mrs_Doyle: I'll tell your parents

Biggest Kid: Ha, yeah right, my ma would dance on your fcuking head!

*change of tactic*

Mrs_Doyle: She would, yeah, if she got the fcuking head on it's own!
Now come here to me, if I see you anywhere near those girls again, I'll break your fcuking legs, and before you threatening me with your auld one, remember, I know your ma, and if she knew you were mouthing out of you like that she'd break your face, and rightly so.
Now get the fcuk off our green and go back to where you came from, your not wanted around here

Biggest Kid: Jesus, relax woman, we were only having a laugh

Mrs_Doyle: GO HOME!

Biggest Kid: We're going!

And off they went.
Now, I just want to make clear, I am not at all proud of the way I spoke to that child, if anything I felt common and brash, and ashamed of myself - but I have to say, it seemed to be the only way to actually deal with him.

When I was a kid, if any of the neighbours told us to behave, or what not, we would never answer them back - we would be so afraid that they would tell our parents on us that we would pretty much do as we were told, and sharpish.
This kid had no fear of his parents, he actually threatened me with his mother - how screwed up is that??????

Question is, would the mother have defended him? Possibly might have been worth calling his bluff.

If not, then that's society for you.

[Deleted User]

As a comparison, there's not much respect for (elders) teachers in Los Angeles and some of the surrounding suburbs. Many of the schools have had to install metal detectors in their entrances to identify knives carried by students (and in a few cases, guns have been found). Playgrounds are rife with gangs, and we are not talking the adult Soprano thugs, but rather gangs comprised of children ages 6 to 17 (at 18 they can be prosecuted as adults). Teachers are frequently harrassed by their student children, and students themselves are pressed into gangs, or if not a gang member, often forced to give up their lunch money as a part of a gang protection racket. Profanity? Profanity is part of the street language and in popular rap music, as is disrespect for authority (parents, teachers, police, gov. officials, community leaders, etc.). Welcome to our Brave New World.

Sam Vimes

Mrs_Doyle wrote:

And off they went.
Now, I just want to make clear, I am not at all proud of the way I spoke to that child, if anything I felt common and brash, and ashamed of myself - but I have to say, it seemed to be the only way to actually deal with him.

you shouldn't be. you did exactly what was needed in that situation. they'll think twice before throwing stones at random people again

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Commander Vimes wrote:

you shouldn't be. you did exactly what was needed in that situation. they'll think twice before throwing stones at random people again

Yes, agreed. Anger and threats. The more anger and threats we make the less angry and threatening we'll... um.... be....

madhitchhiker

Originally Posted by Ikky Poo2
Yes, agreed. Anger and threats. The more anger and threats we make the less angry and threatening we'll... um.... be....

...and the faster you develop heart attack!:D

il gatto

There's no point blaming "society". Our society is what is being ruined by such children, not vice-versa. The parents make up a huge porportion of society, so they're the section of society to blame. Most of this bad behavior starts before the child is "impossible to control". Parents let things slide until the child's behavior is picked up on by neighbours and teachers. When I was that age, I never spoke to an adult, or even an older child in that way. The result would have been a boot up the hole. These days, you'd be hauled before the courts if you did that, and you'd lose. Almost certainly. Even talking to them in the manner Mrs. Doyle found necessary can result in your car being keyed or burned. Until parents and Gardai take the problem seriously, and start punishing these little bastards, there is little anyone can do, except take it and complain about the decline of society.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

il gatto wrote:

There's no point blaming "society". Our society is what is being ruined by such children, not vice-versa. The parents make up a huge porportion of society, so they're the section of society to blame. Most of this bad behavior starts before the child is "impossible to control". Parents let things slide until the child's behavior is picked up on by neighbours and teachers. When I was that age, I never spoke to an adult, or even an older child in that way. The result would have been a boot up the hole. These days, you'd be hauled before the courts if you did that, and you'd lose. Almost certainly. Even talking to them in the manner Mrs. Doyle found necessary can result in your car being keyed or burned. Until parents and Gardai take the problem seriously, and start punishing these little bastards, there is little anyone can do, except take it and complain about the decline of society.

You're contradicting yourself.
Parents are society... parents are to blame... so society IS to blame..?

Larry David

Mrs_Doyle wrote:

My little sis, aged 11, came in the door the other day, and told me that a group of boys had been throwing stones at her, and her friends, while they played on the green.
In typical big sis mode, I asked where the boys were, she pointed them out to me, there was 3 of them, aged 11-13, and I walked over to them:

Mrs_Doyle: Hey, were you throwing stones at those girls?

Biggest Kid: No!

Mrs_Doyle: Well they say you were, and they don't make a habit of lying. Your not to bother them again.

Biggest Kid: *Snorts* Ha, why, what are you going to do about?

*I thinks to myself, 'eh, what am I going to do about it?'

Mrs_Doyle: I'll tell your parents

Biggest Kid: Ha, yeah right, my ma would dance on your fcuking head!

*change of tactic*

Mrs_Doyle: She would, yeah, if she got the fcuking head on it's own!
Now come here to me, if I see you anywhere near those girls again, I'll break your fcuking legs, and before you threatening me with your auld one, remember, I know your ma, and if she knew you were mouthing out of you like that she'd break your face, and rightly so.
Now get the fcuk off our green and go back to where you came from, your not wanted around here

Biggest Kid: Jesus, relax woman, we were only having a laugh

Mrs_Doyle: GO HOME!

Biggest Kid: We're going!

And off they went.
Now, I just want to make clear, I am not at all proud of the way I spoke to that child, if anything I felt common and brash, and ashamed of myself - but I have to say, it seemed to be the only way to actually deal with him.

When I was a kid, if any of the neighbours told us to behave, or what not, we would never answer them back - we would be so afraid that they would tell our parents on us that we would pretty much do as we were told, and sharpish.
This kid had no fear of his parents, he actually threatened me with his mother - how screwed up is that??????

Good job! Exactly what was needed!

Sam Vimes

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

Yes, agreed. Anger and threats. The more anger and threats we make the less angry and threatening we'll... um.... be....

these kids act like that because there are never any consequences to their actions. they throw rocks at someone, the person runs off crying and tells the kids parents and the parent screams at the person who had a rock thrown at them.

at that age, they need to be shown that their actions have consequences and they can't just go around hurting people for the craic. if she went out and tried to calmly explain that they shouldn't do that, the kids would have laughed at her, spit in her face and thrown some more rocks. how would you suggest she stop them throwing rocks at people?

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

You're contradicting yourself.
Parents are society... parents are to blame... so society IS to blame..?

umm, by that logic every single situation in the whole of history could be blamed on "society" because every action in history was commited by people. two people are not "society"

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Commander Vimes wrote:

these kids act like that because there are never any consequences to their actions. they throw rocks at someone, the person runs off crying and tells the kids parents and the parent screams at the person who had a rock thrown at them.

at that age, they need to be shown that their actions have consequences and they can't just go around hurting people for the craic. if she went out and tried to calmly explain that they shouldn't do that, the kids would have laughed at her, spit in her face and thrown some more rocks. how would you suggest she stop them throwing rocks at people?

umm, by that logic every single situation in the whole of history could be blamed on "society" because every action in history was commited by people. two people are not "society"

Point 1: Couldn't agree more. The kids in question shouldn't be let out until they can act in public. BEFORE they start chucking rocks and getting yelled at. The point I'm making is that how do you know they're not going to come back later that night and, as someone said, key your car? Have they learnt a lesson?Are the sitting somewhere and think, "Gee, that was really wrong and I shouldn't have done that..."?

My idea was to deal with the parents ignore the little morons' threats. If we don't think that'll work with most parents, then it IS sosciety,

Yes there should be consequences, but consequences that make the kid NOT want to do it or something worse again.

Point 2: Two people are not society. Also, two people are not chucking rocks. It happens all over the place.

Ph3n0m

Seriously does no one discipline their kids anymore - anything from verbally giving out to even a smack on the arse?

I got chewed out and smacked on the arse for being a brat and it never did me any harm. That said as a parent now, I have never had to smack my child, but if she crosses the line with me, she will be the recipient of an open handed smack on the bum.

There I said it - these little ****s running wild - most of them need that kick up the arse to bring them back to earth.