Just not on

Mrs. MacGyver wrote:

he could have accepted Christ before his death...its not for us to say what his personal arrangement with Christ was.

That is possible. I would suggest that Heaven is remarkably easy to get into if all one needs to do to gain entry is accept Christ on one's deathbed. While I can respect people of faith, I could not respect such a person, and find it strange that they should be granted entrance to Paradise.

Nevertheless, FullOf..IT believes that his father died non-christian. I am asking BrianCalgary, who was eager to condemn fellow christians for telling FullOf..IT's sister that her father is in Hell, the following question: if FullOf..IT is correct, does that mean the christians he condemns spoke the truth?

> I would suggest that Heaven is remarkably easy to get into if all one needs
> to do to gain entry is accept Christ on one's deathbed.

...for whatever "accept Christ" might mean. I've pointed it out before, but it's an intruiging evolutionary adaption of modern christianity that you no longer have to do the biologically-expensive good works that catholicism (kind-of) asks you to do, but instead all you've to do is to believe something. I can't imagine how this belief will evolve in times to come, since the biological cost of believing something is zero and there simply isn't any more cost-free belief than that.

lostexpectation

can ye's not leave brian out of this thread

GAAman

lostexpectation wrote:

can ye's not leave brian out of this thread

Yeah because after all he is not the messiah, he is a very naughty boy

Op sorry for you and your sister it sucks that they can get away with sayin that kind of crap,pay no heed

athena 2000

Originally Posted by Mrs. MacGyver
he could have accepted Christ before his death...its not for us to say what his personal arrangement with Christ was.

Originally Posted by Sapien
That is possible. I would suggest that Heaven is remarkably easy to get into if all one needs to do to gain entry is accept Christ on one's deathbed. While I can respect people of faith, I could not respect such a person, and find it strange that they should be granted entrance to Paradise.

What would you think about a last minute salvation based on true conviction of sins and faith in Christ? No time for baptism, good works, walking out the Christian life. Death in a few hours. No time to prove to anyone that your change of mind and heart is genuine. Yeah, it still annoys people to no end. The thief who was crucified next to Jesus entered paradise that same day.

I find it astounding that God's love is so great that he'd be willing to redeem any of us, even at our very last breath. Perhaps the thief's redemption was custom made because of the timing and the place. Even so, he was redeemed.

Jesus stated:
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." - John 6:37 (NASB)

I'm sure God is not fooled or manipulated by anyone.

Luke 23:39-43
Hebrews 4:12

athena 2000

FullOf..IT wrote:

Hi,
I came home from work today to find my little sister a little upset.

About half an hour before i came home a couple of fanatics knocked at my house and proceded to ask my sisters certain questions about the commitment of her faith and how she applied it (does she go to mass etc). ...

I'm so sorry this happened. It is completely unacceptable and has nothing to do with reaching out to a community with care or even love.

Try not to take offense at their ignorance and insensitivity. If you could talk to the parish priest about it, it might be a good thing to clear things up, and let him be aware of what these two said.

lostexpectation wrote:

can ye's not leave brian out of this thread

Sapien wrote:

Nevertheless, FullOf..IT believes that his father died non-christian. I am asking BrianCalgary, who was eager to condemn fellow christians for telling FullOf..IT's sister that her father is in Hell, the following question: if FullOf..IT is correct, does that mean the christians he condemns spoke the truth?

My interest in what BrianCalgary believes is not arbitrary. It is worrying to me that a moderator of this forum cannot render a simple answer to a simple question about his faith.

athena 2000 wrote:

What would you think about a last minute salvation based on true conviction of sins and faith in Christ? No time for baptism, good works, walking out the Christian life...

I think it's terribly convenient for the about-to-be deceased, and robs religion of the only virtue that it could be claimed it has - the modification of the behaviour of its adherents to the betterment of society.

FullOf..IT, I think that behaviour is shocking. If someone called to your door and said that your father was a criminal or worse you probably could press charges or even sue. Yet we have these fools going around making derogatory statements about people with no evidence to support their claims apparently above the law.

robindch wrote:

... it's an intruiging evolutionary adaption of modern christianity that you no longer have to do the biologically-expensive good works that catholicism (kind-of) asks you to do, but instead all you've to do is to believe something. I can't imagine how this belief will evolve in times to come, since the biological cost of believing something is zero and there simply isn't any more cost-free belief than that.

I think a form of Zahavi's handicap principle may be applied here Robin. It's not the most universal of evolutionary ideas but has some bearing in sexual selection. Handicaps are biologically expensive so any one who can survive with such a handicap must otherwise be quite strong. Of course this leads to the development of false handicaps to cheat the system.

Sapien wrote:

My interest in what BrianCalgary believes is not arbitrary. It is worrying to me that a moderator of this forum cannot render a simple answer to a simple question about his faith. .

I have answered the question a number of times. I am not in a position to judge someone that I have never met. Nor do I think that me passing such a judgement would satisfy this thread, as the thread is about some horrendous actions by members of a particular church, that as a Christian I apologize to the family.

If you have a specific question for me please start a new thread or PM me.

Sapien wrote:

I think it's terribly convenient for the about-to-be deceased, and robs religion of the only virtue that it could be claimed it has - the modification of the behaviour of its adherents to the betterment of society.

Include this question on your new thread as well.

pbsuxok1znja4r

Sapien wrote:

He told his child, and his child is telling you. He was not a christian. Is that not sufficiently clear? Is that not sufficient information upon which to determine whether or not he was saved?

Go back and read BC's posts. He has said he doesn't know at least three times now. You are merely attempting to get him to say something "judgemental".

It's not so simple as what 'actions' you have and haven't taken as a christian. If, as you did some potentially outwardly 'good' action, you felt in your heart you were betraying 'good' then I think you were doing exactly that. I think most of the time, where one's own soul is concerned, it really is the thought that counts. It doesn't matter how that act is outwardly percieved by humans.
(This is what I believe, anyway. I *think* BC would agree).

scouser.tommy wrote:

I think most of the time, where one's own soul is concerned, it really is the thought that counts. It doesn't matter how that act is outwardly percieved by humans.
(This is what I believe, anyway. I *think* BC would agree).

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions :rolleyes:

So, if I were to begin a new thread with the following question:

Suppose that FullOf..IT is correct and truthful in saying that his father was not a christian. In this case, would FullOf..IT's father be in Hell?

... would you answer it?

scouser.tommy wrote:

Go back and read BC's posts. He has said he doesn't know at least three times now. You are merely attempting to get him to say something "judgemental".

To make a judgement, yes. If he is not able to make a judgement based on clear and salient facts relating to the spiritual attitudes of another person, how can he be responsible for his own spirituality?

I'm tired of this now. I suspect BrianCalgary of hypocrisy. I believe he would make exactly the same judgement about the present circumstances of FullOF..IT's father as the door-to-door Christians did. I am pretty sure that he believes that FullOF..IT's father is in Hell. The only difference between him and the door-to-door Christians is courage and a desire to proselytise. The evasiveness to which BrianCalgary has resorted is disappointing and unconvincing. He believes that people who die as non-christians go to Hell. He has been told that FullOF..IT's father died a non-christian. But he will not say that FullOF..IT's father is in Hell. That is weak, disingenuous and dishonorable.

Sapien wrote:

So, if I were to begin a new thread with the following question:

Suppose that FullOf..IT is correct and truthful in saying that his father was not a christian. In this case, would FullOf..IT's father be in Hell?

... would you answer it?.

No because you are asking me to pass judgement on someone I don't know and on someone that I can't get to know while on this earth.

Sapien wrote:

To make a judgement, yes. If he is not able to make a judgement based on clear and salient facts relating to the spiritual attitudes of another person, how can he be responsible for his own spirituality?.

As far as I can see the facts are not clear and salient because I do not have the ability to inquire of the person in question the state of his heart. Until I can do see the only fact is that only God knows the state of the gentlemans heart.

Sapien wrote:

I'm tired of this now. I suspect BrianCalgary of hypocrisy.

i would be a hypocrite by denouncing the actions of the door-to-door people (which I have) and then resorting to the same actions, and that is passing judgement on someone I don't know.

Sapien wrote:

I believe he would make exactly the same judgement about the present circumstances of FullOF..IT's father as the door-to-door Christians did. I am pretty sure that he believes that FullOF..IT's father is in Hell..

Now you are judging me at this point. I have stated again and again that I don't know where fullof..its father is. So for you to make such an accusation that you believe that I would draw the same conclusion as the door-to-door folks is completely erroneous.

Sapien wrote:

The only difference between him and the door-to-door Christians is courage and a desire to proselytise. .

There is a time and a place for proeselytizing. Uninvited at someones front door is not the place.

Sapien wrote:

The evasiveness to which BrianCalgary has resorted is disappointing and unconvincing. .

My answer remains the same. I never met the man so I don't know where he is.

Sapien wrote:

He believes that people who die as non-christians go to Hell. .

This is correct.

Sapien wrote:

He has been told that FullOF..IT's father died a non-christian. But he will not say that FullOF..IT's father is in Hell. That is weak, disingenuous and dishonorable.

This is something we don't know for certain now do we? I never did get the chance to question the man.

athena 2000

Originally Posted by athena 2000
What would you think about a last minute salvation based on true conviction of sins and faith in Christ? No time for baptism, good works, walking out the Christian life...

Sapien wrote:

I think it's terribly convenient for the about-to-be deceased, and robs religion of the only virtue that it could be claimed it has - the modification of the behaviour of its adherents to the betterment of society.

I've thought the same thing of last-minute conversions myself, but I guess I was asking you what you'd think of an actual true conversion at the last minute. Can you allow for that possibility in your thinking? I'm not talking about someone whose intent is 'I've got to get into heaven by the skin of my teeth so I'll do this and at least get in the gate.' But like I said, I doubt God is fooled. Presumably he doesn't need my opinion on who deserves his mercy.

I have a feeling heaven will have a surprising variety of unexpected people!

> B]5uspect[/B I think a form of Zahavi's handicap principle may be applied here [...] in sexual selection. Handicaps are
> biologically expensive so any one who can survive with such a handicap must otherwise be quite strong. Of course this
> leads to the development of false handicaps to cheat the system.

I'm not referring to biological or sexual selection, but memetic selection -- the christianity-meme has (considerably, I think) enhanced its own reproductive fitness by making it no longer necessary for people infected with it to have to do anything at all. All you've to do is to believe something uncritically, which is pretty easy to start with, and, er, that's it.

Well, that's not quite true. Most of the modern variants of the christianity-meme contain a strong "propagate me" rule which kicks in and does incur a biological cost. Though that's obviously of little use if you're a death-bed convert

robindch wrote:

> B]5uspect[/B I think a form of Zahavi's handicap principle may be applied here [...] in sexual selection. Handicaps are
> biologically expensive so any one who can survive with such a handicap must otherwise be quite strong. Of course this
> leads to the development of false handicaps to cheat the system.

I'm not referring to biological or sexual selection, but memetic selection -- the christianity-meme has (considerably, I think) enhanced its own reproductive fitness by making it no longer necessary for people infected with it to have to do anything at all. All you've to do is to believe something uncritically, which is pretty easy to start with, and, er, that's it.

Well, that's not quite true. Most of the modern variants of the christianity-meme contain a strong "propagate me" rule which kicks in and does incur a biological cost. Though that's obviously of little use if you're a death-bed convert

I agree, but what I was trying to say was that the Zahavi's handicap principle may be useful in explaining many fundalmentalist religous traits. Spending huge sums on megachurches, self abuse etc show that people can do potentially damaging things to your normal life but can show the extent of your faith more.
It is if their religous practices are a handicap because they devote so much time and effort into it and yet still lave normal lives. It gives the meme greater copying fidelity since the practice is easier to copy. I think the growth of fundalmentalism shows this somewhat.

FullOF**IT wrote:

they said that my da was in hell because he didnt go to mass

BrianCalgary wrote:

People like that I think are going to have to answer for their actions.

FullOf..IT wrote:

Sapien wrote:

Apparently he was a non-practicing Protestant. So, presumably, he was baptised at birth but had no religious involvement or interest in adulthood. Correct me if I'm wrong, FullOf..IT.

You have it about right... he didnt practice christianity.

BrianCalgary wrote:

Sapien wrote:

[BrianCalgary] believes that people who die as non-christians go to Hell.

This is correct.

You condemn people for saying something which you believe to be true. They have the courage of their convictions, you do not. If you cannot stomach the conclusions that your faith asks you to come to, and cannot bring yourself to declare them openly, you should reconsider your position. Your religion teaches you that countless people die and go to Hell everyday. If you cannot acknowledge one specific instance of this happening, you have not accepted the consequences of your faith. In other words, you do not have real faith.

Dades

Sapien wrote:

You condemn people for saying something which you believe to be true.

Perhaps there is a time and place for saying what you believe to be true.

The Atheist wrote:

Perhaps there is a time and place for saying what you believe to be true.

Agreed. I would think that a forum devoted to discussion of those beliefs is a good place, and when one is asked about ones beliefs is a good time.

Excelsior

Sapien wrote:

Why not? You are in possession of the salient facts. Have the courage of your convictions.

I guess this passes for reasonable discourse in your corner of the world Sapien but I suspect if the interaction between you and BrianCalgary took place in person over a pint you sould show a considerably larger degree of respect. I guess this applies to you well.

He is displaying the courage of his Christian conviction when he refuses to speculate on the eternal destination of any individual save himself. Christ's foundational teaching with regards expressing Christian love towards others is to consider all moral questions through the spectrum of the plank and the toothpick. BC cannot assess another man's destination because that is the work of God alone, and as a Christian who seeks to honour God, he would resist the temptation to de-God by passing judgement.

All he needs to know is that with the many planks in his eyes compared to yours, it is by Grace that he is saved.

The original poster is righeously upset by the actions of these fundamentalists. Cheap attempts to score points off the moderator in this context sadly paints you in a similar light as the doorbell ringers.

Excelsior wrote:

I guess this passes for reasonable discourse in your corner of the world Sapien but I suspect if the interaction between you and BrianCalgary took place in person over a pint you sould show a considerably larger degree of respect. I guess this applies to you well.

Charming. I have personally known many christians, Excelsior, of varying degrees. I have never, ever pulled a punch - in person or otherwise. I have few compunctions - but consistency and integrity are among them. I have not been disrespectful.

Excelsior wrote:

He is displaying the courage of his Christian conviction when he refuses to speculate on the eternal destination of any individual save himself. Christ's foundational teaching with regards expressing Christian love towards others is to consider all moral questions through the spectrum of the plank and the toothpick. BC cannot assess another man's destination because that is the work of God alone, and as a Christian who seeks to honour God, he would resist the temptation to de-God by passing judgement.

You may construct polyclausal sentences and evoke quaint metaphorical devices, but you are no more convincing that Brian. Few christians of his cast will shirk from describing those hypothetical categories of people who are destined for Hell. He has said that one who dies a non-christian will go to Hell. Judgement, of the bleakest, deepest kind lies at the heart of his faith - of any faith. Damnation. To inveigle this fact by losing oneself in the writhing, indistinct vagaries of fluffy, new age theology is to display cowardice.

If someone asks you the question: If my father died having not accepted Christ as his Saviour, would he now be in Hell? - you should say what you believe. Or are the mechanics of Salvation not so clear?

Excelsior wrote:

The original poster is righeously upset by the actions of these fundamentalists. Cheap attempts to score points off the moderator in this context sadly paints you in a similar light as the doorbell ringers.

I don't think you really consider my motivations in pursuing this issue cheap. If you do, that's regrettable, but perhaps you are not in a position to approach this topic rationally. As I said, I considered his response to the OP to be hypocritical, and his subsequence evasion of the question, and now yours, pusillanimous. I have no desire to make friends in this forum - as a gay occultist that's hardly an option - but I do determine to extend to its posters an honest perspective and the unbending benefit of my analysis.

Leaving Sapien's bracing straightforwardness aside, I do think he has a valid point.

> he refuses to speculate on the eternal destination of any individual save himself.

Most of the christians who post to this forum hold that you can only get to heaven by "accepting christ as saviour". At least one poster (I won't mention names) told me some months back that I'll be spending eternity away from Christ, by which I presume he means I'll be spending it in hell. This is hardly a pleasant thing to say to somebody one doesn't know, but I really don't mind; you're all nice guys!

And anyhow, you can't have it both ways -- either one believes that somebody is in hell according to the facts as presented and in accordance with one's beliefs, or one doesn't believe it and I really can't see what the hassle is in saying what one believes. 'specially since we have another thread going where some posters are declaring themselves willing to be murdered rather than deny the results of their beliefs!

A stranger afternoon than normal on boards.ie

Sapien wrote:

You may construct polyclausal sentences and evoke quaint metaphorical devices, but you are no more convincing that Brian. Few christians of his cast will shirk from describing those hypothetical categories of people who are destined for Hell. He has said that one who dies a non-christian will go to Hell. Judgement, of the bleakest, deepest kind lies at the heart of his faith - of any faith.

This is where you misread Christianity. Neither judgement nor damnation are at the heart of the faith.

Salvation is at the heart of the faith. It is what drives us to do what we do. We care about the eternal salvation of others.

Secondly, only God can be the judge. As a Christian I will engage in a discussion with anyone to determine where I think they may be headed. But to pass judgment on someone who we don't know is definitely not on. The folks at the door did that, for anyone to decry such actions and then to repeat the same action would be hypocritical.

Sapien wrote:

If someone asks you the question: If my father died having not accepted Christ as his Saviour, would he now be in Hell? - you should say what you believe. Or are the mechanics of Salvation not so clear?

Salvation is quite clear, it comes by your faith in Christ by the grace of God. But I just don't get why you would insist on passing judgement on someone you would have never met?

He could have made a deathbed confession of sin and acceptance of Christ without anyone ever knowing, but he and God. Which means that we just don't know.

robindch wrote:

Most of the christians who post to this forum hold that you can only get to heaven by "accepting christ as saviour". At least one poster (I won't mention names) told me some months back that I'll be spending eternity away from Christ, by which I presume he means I'll be spending it in hell. This is hardly a pleasant thing to say to somebody one doesn't know, but I really don't mind; you're all nice guys! And anyhow, you can't have it both ways -- either one believes that somebody is in hell according to the facts as presented and in accordance with one's beliefs,

The fact are incomplete. We don't have th eopportunity to ask the final question. That being what condition whre you in at the moment of death. This is clearly in the purvey of God and the subject alone.

Now if you Robin where to ask me; if I were to die today (perish the thought You would be missed by all here) where would I go? We could have the discussion. The OP's father though, it is impossible to engage in such a chat.

robindch wrote:

or one doesn't believe it and I really can't see what the hassle is in saying what one believes. 'specially since we have another thread going where some posters are declaring themselves willing to be murdered rather than deny the results of their beliefs!

The beliefs have been stated, but they don't seem to be accepted.

robindch wrote:

A stranger afternoon than normal on boards.ie

"tis what makes the Irish what they are.:)

BrianCalgary wrote:

This is where you misread Christianity. Neither judgement nor damnation are at the heart of the faith.

Salvation is at the heart of the faith. It is what drives us to do what we do. We care about the eternal salvation of others.

But salvation from what? You can claim doing x and y will result in salvation but you must be equally clear about not doing these things mean.

BrianCalgary wrote:

Secondly, only God can be the judge. As a Christian I will engage in a discussion with anyone to determine where I think they may be headed.

I reject the idea of any kind of religion. Whatever my reasons for doing so - do you think that I am going to Hell? Or at least on on that path?

5uspect wrote:

But salvation from what? You can claim doing x and y will result in salvation but you must be equally clear about not doing these things mean.

Salvation from sin. Not doing these things result in eternal seperation from God. That seperation is described and is called Hell.

5uspect wrote:

I reject the idea of any kind of religion. Whatever my reasons for doing so - do you think that I am going to Hell? Or at least on on that path?

If you have not accepted Christ as your saviour then that is the path you have chosen. You have made the choice to follow your own path. That path is leading you where? I know that since my path is the one that Christ has prepared for me, and that He is leading me. It will lead tomy desire which is eternal communion with God. Called Heaven.

> The beliefs have been stated, but they don't seem to be accepted.

No, as I said, for me, they are insane, though I do accept that you accept them. And I'm interested in hearing what you have to say about your beliefs. And it's proving difficult!

Cutting to the chase:

Without justifying myself and starting another discussion, I'm hereby stating that I have no intention whatsoever of saying on my deathbed, or anywhere else, whatever words are thought by you to allow me, while still alive, to avail of "salvation" after I die. Does this mean that you think that I will (a) stay alive after I die? and (b) if I do, that I will burn in hell for all eternity?

Yes or no for each of these two queries, please!

robindch wrote:

Without justifying myself and starting another discussion, I'm hereby stating that I have no intention whatsoever of saying on my deathbed, or anywhere else, whatever words are thought by you to allow me, while still alive, to avail of "salvation" after I die. !

robindch wrote:

Does this mean that you think that I will (a) stay alive after I die?!

You will suffer a second death. Revelation 20:11-15

robindch wrote:

and (b) if I do, that I will burn in hell for all eternity?

Yes or no for each of these two queries, please!

You will suffer eternal torment in the lake of fire. From the same passage as above.

If you refuse to ever accept Christ as your saviour.

Although I will be praying for you.:)

It would perhaps sound less condemnatory if you put "I believe that..." in front of each of the above condemnations. Remember we're talking about a belief here, not a fact!

Anyhow, it don't say nuthin' in there 'bout "salvation". Just that people are going to be judged according to what they've done. And working back through the logic of your own particular interpretation, people must therefore be put on this earth to do one thing, and one thing only, leaving the rest of their lives as pointless wool-gathering.

Doesn't sound like much of a life to me!

> Although I will be praying for you.

Very kind of you, but pointless, because I'll be either melted (how do you melt a ghost?), dead or otherhow beyond rescue, won't I?