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The Athanasian Creed?

L31mr0d

‘the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.’

Thus the Trinity, the Father be God, Jesus be God, and the holy spirit be God, yet there be not three Gods but only one God? This idea has puzzled me for years and I would appreciate some input into understanding it. I mean at 1 Corinthians 14:33 it says "God is not a God of confusion.", yet the whole idea of the trinity seems to be shrowded in confusion as to how it can exist, the complete lack of the word trinity or any other triad reasoning in the bible is also confusing as there doesn't seem to be any actual mention of these 3 being one either, or a word for describing these 3 together?

Can some one explain to me how it is believed that the father, the son and the holy ghost are viewed as one entity in Catholicism yet there is no mention of them being one in the bible?

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babyvaio

L31mr0d wrote:

‘the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.’

Thus the Trinity, the Father be God, Jesus be God, and the holy spirit be God, yet there be not three Gods but only one God? This idea has puzzled me for years and I would appreciate some input into understanding it. I mean at 1 Corinthians 14:33 it says "God is not a God of confusion.", yet the whole idea of the trinity seems to be shrowded in confusion as to how it can exist, the complete lack of the word trinity or any other triad reasoning in the bible is also confusing as there doesn't seem to be any actual mention of these 3 being one either, or a word for describing these 3 together?

Can some one explain to me how it is believed that the father, the son and the holy ghost are viewed as one entity in Catholicism yet there is no mention of them being one in the bible?

Trinity is simply the mystery that has never been resolved. It doesn't exists in the Bible itself. It is a human invention. Romans had a triple pagan god so they had to adopt the idea of triple god and that's exactly what they did when they accepted the Christian faith. The problem is that Jesus himself never called those people Christians (Christ simply means the anointed one, the appointed one and nothing else but that, which simply means God's Prophet and nothing more than that and nothing less than that).

Read this chapter from the Bible:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054968921

What about the 1st commandment? Hear O Israel, there is no god but One God? (It didn't say triple god, not threee in one, did it?)

Another misinterpretation of the Bible when people try to "proove" Jesus' "divinity" - none can come to the Father except thru me. Now what does that mean? Let's be a bit more logical - Jesus didn't say (anywhere in the Bible BTW) - I'm God, I created you, therefore worship me. What it means is that if you follow him as God's Prophet, you learn how to properly worship God (that is the same way Jesus himself worshipped God, like he prayed, lived his life obeying God's rules, etc.). A servant is not God. God does not eat. God does not pray. God does not worship himself.

Even the so-called "Father's prayer" is so simple to understand. To whom they pray there? To Jesus? Of course not. To Holy Spirit? Of course not. To God Almighty? Of course. Whose Kingdom? Thy kingdom, not mine kingdom, not our kingdom. Whose Will? Thy Will, not my will, not ours, etc.

My advice would be that you ask Vatican themselves and the pope himself. But I can assure you that you will get even more confused, 'cos they're not able to explain their own invention (not the current Vatican, but Vatican from 4th century).

God didn't create disorder, but people did, that's what people do. Just because the pagan Romans wouldn want to leave the idea of 3 gods, they had to mix the pagan belief and the teachings of God's Prophet Jesus, so they took Jesus, kicked out one of their pagan gods (or all three if you like, it doesn't change much of something that's already confusing) and pronounced that he is God's son.

By whose authority BTW? By God's Authority? Of course not. If they think so, let them give us some proofs for that. But they can't, because even the basic word as such - the trinity - is nowhere to be found in the whole Bible.

BTW, 25of of December was taken from their pagan belief. That's not the birthday of Jesus, that's the birthday of somebody else. Heretic? Indeed. Very. Totally.

Furthermore, the so-called Holy Spirit was none else but angel Gabriel, the very same angel who appeared to Mary, and who appeared to many God's Prophets, the one who brought God's Revelations before Jesus and after Jesus. Simple as that.

robindch

> the father, the son and the holy ghost are viewed as one entity in
> Catholicism yet there is no mention of them being one in the bible?

See the recent posting on the suppression of the Arian Heresy and the acceptance of the Nicene creed written by Athanasius of Alexandria and the similarity of the christian trinity to various pre-existing Egyptian religious trinities.

> I would appreciate some input into understanding it.

On my side of the fence, the trinity is understood to have evolved and propagated simply *because* it cannot be understood. Recall that most religions require people to believe things without any evidence and applaud the people who do. It's a simple step from there to see how why believing things that are meaningless could be seen as doubly honorable.

hairyheretic

babyvaio wrote:

Romans had a triple pagan god so they had to adopt the idea of triple god and that's exactly what they did when they accepted the Christian faith.

The Romans had an entire pantheon of gods and goddesses. Who is this triple god that you're refering to? I'm not familiar with that, though I have seen triple aspect goddesses in different pantheons.

Mrs. MacGyver

This creed is in the book of common prayer in the C of I tradition. As hairy heritic said, i also dont know where the triple god concept came from and i've studied philosophy and theology, i would like to know out of curiosity though, thanks.

babyvaio

Quoted from Wikipedia.com

Whoever wants to be saved should above all cling to the catholic faith.

Whoever does not guard it whole and inviolable will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith: We worship one God in trinity and the Trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the divine being.

For the Father is one person, the Son is another, and the Spirit is still another.

But the deity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, equal in glory, coeternal in majesty.

What the Father is, the Son is, and so is the Holy Spirit.

Uncreated is the Father; uncreated is the Son; uncreated is the Spirit.

The Father is infinite; the Son is infinite; the Holy Spirit is infinite.

Eternal is the Father; eternal is the Son; eternal is the Spirit:

And yet there are not three eternal beings, but one who is eternal;

as there are not three uncreated and unlimited beings, but one who is uncreated and unlimited.

Almighty is the Father; almighty is the Son; almighty is the Spirit:

And yet there are not three almighty beings, but one who is almighty.

Thus the Father is God; the Son is God; the Holy Spirit is God:

And yet there are not three gods, but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord; the Son is Lord; the Holy Spirit is Lord:

And yet there are not three lords, but one Lord.

As Christian truth compels us to acknowledge each distinct person as God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten;

the Son was neither made nor created, but was alone begotten of the Father;

the Spirit was neither made nor created, but is proceeding from the Father and the Son.

Thus there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three spirits.

And in this Trinity, no one is before or after, greater or less than the other;

but all three persons are in themselves, coeternal and coequal; and so we must worship the Trinity in unity and the one God in three persons.

Whoever wants to be saved should think thus about the Trinity.

It is necessary for eternal salvation that one also faithfully believe that our Lord Jesus Christ became flesh.

For this is the true faith that we believe and confess: That our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son, is both God and man.

He is God, begotten before all worlds from the being of the Father, and he is man, born in the world from the being of his mother --

existing fully as God, and fully as man with a rational soul and a human body;

equal to the Father in divinity, subordinate to the Father in humanity.

Although he is God and man, he is not divided, but is one Christ.

He is united because God has taken humanity into himself; he does not transform deity into humanity.

He is completely one in the unity of his person, without confusing his natures.

For as the rational soul and body are one person, so the one Christ is God and man.

He suffered death for our salvation.

He descended into hell and rose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

At his coming all people shall rise bodily to give an account of their own deeds.

Those who have done good will enter eternal life,

those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith.

One cannot be saved without believing this firmly and faithfully.

babyvaio

Now if you read carefully the text I quoted in the previous post, you will find many obvious contradictions. I don't want to be the first one to point them out, but if nobody does, I certainly will.

Just for instance, check this out.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten;

the Son was neither made nor created, but was alone begotten of the Father;

the Spirit was neither made nor created, but is proceeding from the Father and the Son.

Now how is it that they are equal? Son begotten, yet equal to God? The Spirit proceeding from the father and the son, yet equal? Equal as how exactly, equal as what?

BTW, nobody, and I mean nobody from the day one till now solved this mystery, not even the popes themselves.

babyvaio

Since English is not my mother tongue I have to aks you guys whose mother tongue English is to clarify this for me please.

Isn't begetting a form of creating or making?

I mean, if that is so, then the son was obviously created.

Please post your answers, I'm very curious and I want to have a bright and clean picture about this. Thanks.

Dades

The bible (or any ancient religious text) was not originally written in english anyway, so the point is somewhat moot.

"Beget" like any other term has been translated and re-translated already - possibly between languages that don't even share a common word. That might explain some inconsistencies.

babyvaio

The Atheist wrote:

The bible (or any ancient religious text) was not originally written in english anyway, so the point is somewhat moot.

"Beget" like any other term has been translated and re-translated already - possibly between languages that don't even share a common word. That might explain some inconsistencies.

I'm well aware of what you're saying, but that puts the whole Bible on the test, rite? And probably, well, the outcome wouldn't be so clean I guess... :cool:

But the text posted up there is not the Bible, but the text of the Athanasian Creed (Quicunque vult) which is a statement of Christian doctrine traditionally ascribed to St. Athanasius, Archbishop of Alexandria, who lived in the 4th century (taken from Wikipedia BTW).

So it goes way after the 1st century...

Wibbs

babyvaio wrote:

I'm well aware of what you're saying, but that puts the whole Bible on the test, rite? And probably, well, the outcome wouldn't be so clean I guess... :cool:

From a historic/translation point of view all religious texts are up for debate on the double points of translation/interpretation. Individual faith is the decider.

As robindch points out all religions look for faith in things the faithful can neither see nor often understand. The trinity part is in the same area as water into wine, parting the red sea, divine revelation etc. One mans messiah is another mans heretic. Again whatever floats your boat.

T-1111111111111

It looks that Jesus defeated/denied the Athanasian Creed document himself.
Read this:

John 14:28 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

This means that they are not equal, right??

Also, I still remember that verse where the it is said that Jesus is God's servant. In the same verse God is mentioned as a completely different person and it is obvious that One is The Creator of Jesus (Almighty God) and the other is Jesus, His prophet and servant.

Simple as that. THere u go.

BrianCalgary

babyvaio wrote:

Since English is not my mother tongue I have to aks you guys whose mother tongue English is to clarify this for me please.

Isn't begetting a form of creating or making?

I mean, if that is so, then the son was obviously created.

Please post your answers, I'm very curious and I want to have a bright and clean picture about this. Thanks.

The word translated 'beget' in Matthewn 1 comes from the Greek word 'gennao' which means 'to be born' or 'of women giving birth to children'.

It is interesting to note that in the genealogy of Christ, through Joseph, it states how one man begat another man, but when it gets to Joseph it says the following:
Matthew 1:15
And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob; 16And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

It doesn't say that Joseph begat Jesus. Which is in line with the teaching that Jesus was inacarnate by the Holy Spirit.