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To Die or Not

The Gnome

After much discussion and debate I've found the following question to provoke some interesting answers. To this end I shall put it you humble folk of After Hours.

Would you die for a cause knowing that the actions that resulted in your death would make the world in general a better place for those left behind (loved ones, family, friends etc)?

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Joseph

TomCo wrote:

Heh, No.

rofl

PS: Deaddude agrees.

The Gnome

Dragan wrote:

Once again , and not to be picky, but the way you describe it is that you save your loved ones and humanity benefits as a result.

Exactly, so my next question would be. Is there any major difference between 'saving your loved ones and humanity benefits' and 'saving humanity and your loved ones benefits'?

Dragan wrote:

I feel you would need to seperate the two points,

a) would you die to save your family but they would hate you for it and humanity would prosper.

b) would you live and have your family live, but humanity as a whole would suffer.

I agree on some levels because my initial question could be broken down into a lot of varying questions.

But as I put it originally I purposely left out any judgement by those left (be they family or general public). You would be dead, your family could hate you because you died, they could love you because of what you have done for them, the public could love you for the same reason or they might not even know your name. You will never know, all you know is the world will be a much better place.

Dragan wrote:

You can't have bait without a hook afterall. The option you give of "you die and everything is better for everyone" would be a yes answer for 90% of people if they were confronted with it.....but only if the option of them living would result in cataclysm for the rest of the world.

I agree, but what if there was no disaster, what if you kept on just living knowing you missed your chance to improve things?

Dragan

The Gnome wrote:

Exactly, so my next question would be. Is there any major difference between 'saving your loved ones and humanity benefits' and 'saving humanity and your loved ones benefits'?

For me yes, putting one before the other emphasis the importance of it to you. Lets say family is first, this is basically selfish, you are more worried about your own family than the rest of humanity. If humaity comes first, then this is basically selfLESS because you are more concerned with the bigger picture that the obvious benefit to your own, and apparent benefit to the rest of the world.

At least, thats my take on it.

The Gnome wrote:

You will never know, all you know is the world will be a much better place.

Then yeah, straight way i would go for it....after you are dead thats it...your done. i would easily give up any benefit i could see for myself of being alive, for the total benefit towards humanity. It is not a question of anything for me other than scale. If i don't know then i have nothing to fear, and nothing to worry aboutl

The Gnome wrote:

I agree, but what if there was no disaster, what if you kept on just living knowing you missed your chance to improve things?

People do this everyday. But my point as above remains. I still maintain the option given is simple, because it's all good, with no bad. We die, so we don;t know any better but our last moments are filled with thoughts of the good we are doing.

As such, the choice is not difficult.

I am very much enjoying over conversation actually, one of the best i have had on here in a little bit, so cheers!

L31mr0d

If its a situation where i'm told that I have to choose who dies, myself or a loved one, i'd choose myself. You wouldn't feel alive inside knowing you chose to kill someone you loved rather than yourself. Like Dragan said, its better dying happy, knowing you are saving someone else.

If its on the matter of dying for my country in a conflict of some sort than no, I wouldn't put my life on the line to become a statistic. I would, however, die for my faith, thats not to say i'd kill for my faith, more so that if I was threathened with giving up my faith or dying, i'd choose to die. If you have a faith in God, you accept that life and death are relative, and that God is the only being that has control over who should live and who should die.

So my priorities would be for dying (what a weird topic?)
1. God
2. Loved ones
3. Humanity

whiskeyman

TomCo wrote:

You can't do anything by being dead, much better to be alive and make a difference.

Unless you're a rap artist..... you can still release stuff and watch your music sales rocket!

Chakar

Well it would depend but I would put my life on the line for the Republic of Ireland if we were invaded by a foreign force.

Also the usual family blah blah..

Unearthly

Hands up who wanted to be Bruce Willis at the end of Armageddon

\o.:(

The Gnome

KTRIC wrote:

I'd say feck that, I'm not missing Top Gear on Sunday

Top Gear? You sicken me.

Dragan wrote:

For me yes, putting one before the other emphasis the importance of it to you. Lets say family is first, this is basically selfish, you are more worried about your own family than the rest of humanity. If humaity comes first, then this is basically selfLESS because you are more concerned with the bigger picture that the obvious benefit to your own, and apparent benefit to the rest of the world.

At least, thats my take on it.

Again, exacty. So people, who even believe they are being selfless by saving their family/loved ones are ultimatly selfish in their goals. This is why I find it so interesting, even when people make the choice to die they can still be selfish. A concept, I think, many in the world don't grasp.

Dragan wrote:

Then yeah, straight way i would go for it....after you are dead thats it...your done. i would easily give up any benefit i could see for myself of being alive, for the total benefit towards humanity. It is not a question of anything for me other than scale. If i don't know then i have nothing to fear, and nothing to worry aboutl

If you could know, whould it change you mind?

Dragan wrote:

People do this everyday. But my point as above remains. I still maintain the option given is simple, because it's all good, with no bad. We die, so we don;t know any better but our last moments are filled with thoughts of the good we are doing.

As such, the choice is not difficult.

I wouldn't say it's all good. There's a very real possibilty that those you left behind will be devasted by you loss. I would agree that some people make the choice to not make a difference everyday but very few of those choices are on the scale I'm talking about.

Dragan wrote:

I am very much enjoying over conversation actually, one of the best i have had on here in a little bit, so cheers!

Me too

TomCo

whiskeyman wrote:

Unless you're a rap artist..... you can still release stuff and watch your music sales rocket!

So true, the next 2Pac album feature Biggie should be out any day now.

Dragan

The Gnome wrote:

If you could know, whould it change you mind?

I do not think so, but it would make me see things differently, and make me spend my last few moments being bitter if i thought they would not appreciate it. I would like to say that i am above such a reaction but i am only human afterall. Even if i knew, and if that knowledge was that no one would care, i would like to think that i would still be able to do what needed doing.

Then again, if i am tested that way tomorrow, then maybe i will buckle, though i would like to think i would not!!

The Gnome wrote:

I wouldn't say it's all good. There's a very real possibilty that those you left behind will be devasted by you loss. I would agree that some people make the choice to not make a difference everyday but very few of those choices are on the scale I'm talking about.

Once again, i would look at it as being a case of scale. I have no doubt that my parents, family and friends would miss me, at least i hope they would!!! However, better to deal with my death than whatever destruction the world would endure other than that.

Death is as much a part of life as anything else, i would think that most of the people i know are well adjusted enough to see that, and while my death would sadden them, i do not think it would devastate them. I have no doubt that it would feel that way at the time, but they would mend, because they would all sit around thinking how pissed i would be at them for not getting on with things.

The know that should i ever go without being able to say goodbye to think of me fondly, treat each other right and LIVE for fu*k sake!!!!

Compare that with dealing with the entire mass destruction on mankind, in whatever form that should take....and i think the economies of scale are pretty clear!!!!

The Gnome

Dragan wrote:

Then again, if i am tested that way tomorrow, then maybe i will buckle, though i would like to think i would not!!

Very true, ultimatly we can say what we like but we'll probably never know what we'd all really do... until the revolution is at hand...

Dragan wrote:

Once again, i would look at it as being a case of scale. I have no doubt that my parents, family and friends would miss me, at least i hope they would!!! However, better to deal with my death than whatever destruction the world would endure other than that.

Ok, lets modify the scenario slighty. Say the current situation of the world is bad, a war for example, the war could end at any time and things could eventually sort themselves out but then again maybe not. Now you have the "Choice", will you take it and die or wait and see? Again the betterment of life is certain but now the possibility of disaster isn't.

Dragan wrote:

Death is as much a part of life as anything else, i would think that most of the people i know are well adjusted enough to see that, and while my death would sadden them, i do not think it would devastate them. I have no doubt that it would feel that way at the time, but they would mend, because they would all sit around thinking how pissed i would be at them for not getting on with things.

The know that should i ever go without being able to say goodbye to think of me fondly, treat each other right and LIVE for fu*k sake!!!!

True and at this level I suppose the dilemma become far more personal. Some peoples families wou;d be devasted by their loss no matter what and others proud of the sacrifice.

L31mr0d wrote:

I would, however, die for my faith, thats not to say i'd kill for my faith...

This is another interesting perspective, can I ask why you'd die but not kill?

Dragan

The Gnome wrote:

Ok, lets modify the scenario slighty. Say the current situation of the world is bad, a war for example, the war could end at any time and things could eventually sort themselves out but then again maybe not. Now you have the "Choice", will you take it and die or wait and see? Again the betterment of life is certain but now the possibility of disaster isn't.

Ah, another curve ball.

I would look at that me giving my life could stop the war early, even if it is just a second early....but with that second i could willingly give my life and save the life of an innocent who would not die otherwise then it would be worth doing.

I am not trying to be a saint here, it should be noted that i would also kill another person, were the same result guaranteed.

Lothaar

I have always maintained (to myself) that in a situation like this I would unquestioningly sacrifice myself. Now, if me dying made things worse for my loved ones - but better for the rest of humanity - I would have a different perspective. There's a school of thought that says there is no such thing as altruism, that even the greatest sacrifice is motivated by 'selfishness' (eg protecting your family, your blood/genes). If my family and loved ones were to suffer from my death, then I would rather live.

Dyr

I'm sure i would, i mean i'll sacrifice myself for my team mates when im playing DOD and that's pretty much the same.

The Gnome

Dragan wrote:

Ah, another curve ball. I would look at that me giving my life could stop the war early, even if it is just a second early....but with that second i could willingly give my life and save the life of an innocent who would not die otherwise then it would be worth doing.

I am not trying to be a saint here, it should be noted that i would also kill another person, were the same result guaranteed.

[Voice=German Psychoanalyst]Very interesting.... [/Voice]

[Deleted User]

Depends on a lot of things, some of which most of you would not spend a lot of time pondering when it happened. For example, you're watching the telly, someone breaks into your house and assaults your child.

"Help! Help! Dad! Mom! Scream! Cry!"

Response A: "Well, let's see..." Parent observes child getting beaten, pulls at chin. "Should I rescue my kid... hummmmm... Well, if I do, I might get hurt or even die... hummmm... Then again, I love them and could not live a happy life knowing that I let them be hurt or die... hummmm... What should I do?"

Response B: "Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!" Parent immediately counter attacks not thinking about their own safety.

Lothaar

Doing it because you couldn't live with yourself if you *didn't* is a disgrace, IMO. You're only considering the effect it has upon you.

On the subject of parents' reactions: let's say somebody was about to shoot your child. Would you throw yourself in front of them to take a bullet? Even if you knew the gunman had more bullets and could still shoot your child?

The Gnome

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

Depends on a lot of things, some of which most of you would not spend a lot of time pondering when it happened. For example, you're watching the telly, someone breaks into your house and assaults your child.

"Help! Help! Dad! Mom! Scream! Cry!"

Response A: "Well, let's see..." Parent observes child getting beaten, pulls at chin. "Should I rescue my kid... hummmmm... Well, if I do, I might get hurt or even die... hummmm... Then again, I love them and could not live a happy life knowing that I let them be hurt or die... hummmm... What should I do?"

Response B: "Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!" Parent immediately counter attacks not thinking about their own safety.

As I said it's not a single life or a few lifes that at involved.

Deer

I was watching a certain movie on Sunday with a hangover regarding earth being attacked by aliens. One of the characters was in the exact same situation as the one your proposing and ended his life and saved humanity. He was a parent and left his children behind.

With regards to world at war, stay and see how things happen or end your life now - are you proposing that at any point that you choose to die that the war will be over?

Because if it's a wait and see situation and you can make your choice at any time I think I'd wait and see.

The Gnome

Deer wrote:

I was watching a certain movie on Sunday with a hangover regarding earth being attacked by aliens. One of the characters was in the exact same situation as the one your proposing and ended his life and saved humanity. He was a parent and left his children behind.

With regards to world at war, stay and see how things happen or end your life now - are you proposing that at any point that you choose to die that the war will be over?

Because if it's a wait and see situation and you can make your choice at any time I think I'd wait and see.

For that example it was 'make it then or never' situation.

Deer

Die then.

InFront

Im not sure what is m,eant by making the world a better place, I wouldnt end my life to improve the NASDAQ or for the imporvement of clean energy methods, etc.

But if I believed that ending my life would somehow bring about change in the world and/ or be an important benefit for humanity then yes I would definitely do it. That is to say, if my death could do more good than all of my efforts in life, I would defininely end my life. Most people would, no? Imo the whole point of life is that you do try your best to leave the place in better order than how you found it. If the best I could do for the world were to end my life then so be it. It would be a moral imperative

Cant imagine what circumstances or whatever, its just hypothetical.

[Deleted User]

The Gnome wrote:

As I said it's not a single life or a few lifes that at involved.

OK, how about this? You are poor and cannot afford to go to university in the USA. You apply for loans, but the money is still not enough to survive. You try to find work, but lack the necessary skills or opportunities to obtain part-time employment while a student, and such jobs after taxes do not pay enough to make a difference. You hear about the $20,000 USD sign-on bonus, plus educational benefits for joining the US Army, Navy, Marines, or Air Force to defend your country against all foreign and domestic enemies for 3 years (Now that's a lot of people you are defending and may risk your life for!).

You go to the recruiter and express your worries about being sent to Iraq and maybe die there. Of course, the recruiter tells you that it's very unlikely that you will be posted there, and furthermore, the US President proclaimed that the "War was won!" a couple years ago, and the risks have really been exaggerated in the press. You sign up. You go through boot camp for the US Marines in Camp Pendelton then off to Twenty Nine Palms for desert and Middle Eastern City training. "But, but, but..." you plead. "The recruiter assured me..." After being posted to Bagdad, your squad on routine patrol is ambushed and your are sent home to your parents in a box.:eek:

Deer

I think the context of the discussion is that by dying you would prevent an apocaplyse type event and save the world and humanity and would you do it.

The Gnome

InFront wrote:

That is to say, if my death could do more good than all of my efforts in life. Most people would, no?

Apparently not. Roughly half have said they wouldn't.

InFront wrote:

Cant imagine what circumstances or whatever, its just hypothetical.

Exactly, that why I'm trying not to give too many details. The circumstances are up to the individuals imagination.

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

OK, how about this... ...parents in a box

That would be dying for a country, changing nothing. I'm talking about dying for humanity changing everything.

[Deleted User]

The Gnome wrote:

Would you die for a cause knowing that the actions that resulted in your death would make the world in general a better place for those left behind (loved ones, family, friends etc)?

You have not seen the recruitment advertisements in the USA? I'm overseas right now, and everyone gets bombarded with them. Bring "Peace, freedom, and the American Way!" to the people of the world.

TomCo

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

OK, how about this? You are poor and cannot afford to go to university in the USA. You apply for loans, but the money is still not enough to survive. You try to find work, but lack the necessary skills or opportunities to obtain part-time employment while a student, and such jobs after taxes do not pay enough to make a difference. You hear about the $20,000 USD sign-on bonus, plus educational benefits for joining the US Army, Navy, Marines, or Air Force to defend your country against all foreign and domestic enemies for 3 years (Now that's a lot of people you are defending and may risk your life for!).

You go to the recruiter and express your worries about being sent to Iraq and maybe die there. Of course, the recruiter tells you that it's very unlikely that you will be posted there, and furthermore, the US President proclaimed that the "War was won!" a couple years ago, and the risks have really been exaggerated in the press. You sign up. You go through boot camp for the US Marines in Camp Pendelton then off to Twenty Nine Palms for desert and Middle Eastern City training. "But, but, but..." you plead. "The recruiter assured me..." After being posted to Bagdad, your squad on routine patrol is ambushed and your are sent home to your parents in a box.:eek:

Solution - Join the Navy.

The Gnome

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

You have not seen the recruitment advertisements in the USA?

On the contrary I'm well aware of them but you are talking about a specific real life event where the outcome is uncertain. The question I posed is hypothetical with a certain outcome.

InFront

Im trying to think of anyone whose choice to die has ever benefitted humanity... cant think of one, though surely there must be. Anyone else think of any?

EDIT: Hitler? Although he was as good as caught when he decided to end it all

That isnt to say that the need wont arise at some stage.
I cant wait until the Revolution comes.

Siogfinsceal

are you outta your tree -hell no