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Fan upgrade log and heat problems

L31mr0d

I had this posted in another thread, but i've deleted it and started a new one as its on a seperate topic.

I had a free day yesterday so decided to install two Zalman fans (CNPS9500 LED, VF900-Cu) I got in Peats, and like all things with this computer, one thing led to another and I ended up spending 5 or 6 hours on the thing as some problems arose, and other things got ammended.

First off it took ages to clean the 6800 Ultra as there was loads of thermal paste on it, the acetone and a few Q-Tips did the job though, I was worried about the adhesive thermal pads for the VGA RAM as they would be hanging upside down in my case when the thermal paste melted and there would be nothing holding them on, but I guess Zalman know what they are doing. Also, if you look at the pictures it says "6800 GT" below the nvidia chip, wtf??? this is an ultra, do they use the same chip as the GT?

All in all the VGA setup turned out a lot smaller than I had expected, and the precision engineering of all the copper fins and pipes looks excellent.

Next was onto setting up the behemoth 9500, which just fits inside my ATX case, with about maybe an inch clearance from the side. Previously I had had an 80mm fan on the window blowing air on top of the AMD heatsink and fan, but now it wouldn't fit. Being a window mod this was easily rectified by cutting a new piece of perspex and positioning the fan lower down away from the 9500. I decided to not etch this piece of perspex so I could see into the case.

At this point I cut 2 holes in the side panel to allow for the fan controls supplied with the zalmans to be placed on the outside without having the cables running along the outside of the case.

Other changes I made this time around:
1. Added a 40GB Maxtor IDE HDD in one of the CD ROM bays to backup pictures and important files
2. Cut out some holes with my dremel at the bottom of the front panel to allow air to get the 80mm fan at the bottom of my case (you can see the blue glow of the fan through the holes in the last picture), I also cut out the grill in front of this fan (forgot to take a picture)

Before:

After:

Oh and also, my temps have not actually fallen at all although there is a big decrease in noise from the machine. My temps have actually gone UP??? My temp range before was 31'c - 41'c for my CPU, now it's 35'c - 45'c on the same settings??? Is there a settling period for the paste before it becomes 100% effective?

Right now i'm idling around 40'c, but I think this might be due to the extreme humidity around where i'm living today.

My questions are:
1. Would moving the side fan from over the CPU to below the VGA have caused this jump in temps?
2. What temperature drop should I expect with a Zalman 9500?
3. How much thermal paste is too much? I used the whole tube provided and spread it thinly over the die with a credit card.
4. I have the 9500 positioned at the moment so that its blowing towards the exhaust fan, would positioning it so that it is blowing towards the 120mm fan of the PSU be better?

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gline

L31mr0d wrote:

My questions are:
1. Would moving the side fan from over the CPU to below the VGA have caused this jump in temps?
2. What temperature drop should I expect with a Zalman 9500?
3. How much thermal paste is too much? I used the whole tube provided and spread it thinly over the die with a credit card.
4. I have the 9500 positioned at the moment so that its blowing towards the exhaust fan, would positioning it so that it is blowing towards the 120mm fan of the PSU be better?

1: possibly, youd have to try both positionings to know

2: i would have thought you could get about 10degree drop, it is supposed to be a savage cooler, was reviewed on www.custompc.ie afair

3: a whole tube is too much, pea sized blob spred evenly over the surface is sufficent, it is only used to fill in the microholes on a chip

4: i would think that the way you have it is best, once again trial and error

Cuddlesworth

The less thermal paste the better, although I think your temps might be lower than your think. A64s have the thermal probe to one side so better coolers that make great contact in the centre tend to show higher temps.

DemonOfTheFall

Actually a grain of rice sized blob should be sufficient. Pea sized sounds way too much.

Is the CNPS set to full blast fan speed ?

If your previous temperature range was 31' to 41' you can't really expect lower than that with any air cooler... Crank up an overclock and the Zalman should come into its own.

gline

DemonOfTheFall wrote:

Actually a grain of rice sized blob should be sufficient. Pea sized sounds way too much.

Is the CNPS set to full blast fan speed ?

If your previous temperature range was 31' to 41' you can't really expect lower than that with any air cooler... Crank up an overclock and the Zalman should come into its own.

i meant a small pea

certainly not a whole tube of thermal paste :eek: that is probably why your temps are higher

TomCo

Does anyone remember seeing that pic on some review site where the reviewer basically put a layer of icing on the cpu?

Edit: Ah, there we go.

Spread the thermal paste evenly on the processor's surface. Use a flat spatula (or a large flat tip screwdriver)
to achieve an even and thin layer of the compound.

hopeful

gline wrote:

i meant a small pea
certainly not a whole tube of thermal paste :eek: that is probably why your temps are higher

Remember...Less is more....Thats what my wife reassures me

Matthewthebig

oh dear lord

gline

TomCo wrote:

Does anyone remember seeing that pic on some review site where the reviewer basically put a layer of icing on the cpu?

Edit: Ah, there we go.

Spread the thermal paste evenly on the processor's surface. Use a flat spatula (or a large flat tip screwdriver)
to achieve an even and thin layer of the compound.

even that pic looks like too much, you can apply less then that with good results

TomCo

gline wrote:

even that pic looks like too much, you can apply less then that with good results

That was the point, its WAY too much.

Maybe I have to put smiles after all my posts

Starting now.

poggy

that guy paid for the tube and was gettin his money's worth:D

that should do at least 4 processors if not more

L31mr0d

TomCo wrote:

Does anyone remember seeing that pic on some review site where the reviewer basically put a layer of icing on the cpu?

Edit: Ah, there we go.

Spread the thermal paste evenly on the processor's surface. Use a flat spatula (or a large flat tip screwdriver)
to achieve an even and thin layer of the compound.

Crap

that is EXACTLY what mine looked like. It was a small tube of paste, only about the size of a pea came out, but it covered the whole top of the die like in the pic, when I put the heatsink on none of it came out the sides so it was spread pretty thin. Does someone have a pic of what it should look like, I thought it had to form a conductive seal between the heatsink and die? Surely it would need to cover all of it to do this?

L31mr0d

Ok just found this article. Is the method stated in it ok, or would I need to spread out the thermal compound with a credit card?

Would of helped before application though... man you should of seen how much I applied to the VGA die, I used, again, the whole tube (the instructions in the zalman manual where very vague, it just said "Apply thermal compound") and the VGA die is 1/4 the size of the AMD64 one :eek:

I guess i'll have to go get some more thermal paste and redo. Where is a good stockist of the stuff, and which is the best? Artic Silver?

Oh and theres a funny thing happening with my temps now. My CPU is hitting 40'c idle, but its only going up to 42'c on full load??? Could the sensor be malfunctioning or something?

TomCo

I wouldn't use a razor though, I've heard horror stories (those in the know know what I'm refering to).

For the cpu you can put a little dot of paste in the middle and let the heatsink spread it out when you put it on or spread the paste finely with something rigid approx the width of the area to be applied - like a credit card. The paste should be as thin as possible, you hinder the heat transfer by having too thick a layer. Remember its only supposed to fill any micro imperfections in the surface, the heatsink should connect with the surface of the cpu in places not just to the paste. Not sure if I worded that right but you get the idea.

gibbon75

L31mr0d

What's your plan with the factory Ultra cooler?
Do you want to keep it?

L31mr0d

probably going to hold onto it for the mo, i'd probably consider putting it back on the 6800 Ultra and keeping the zalman fan for my next card.

Anyway, off to get some paste... i'll post pics of the die just to be sure I got it right.

L31mr0d

ugh

went into the city today, what a nightmare, fighting my way through myriads of loud spanish kids, alll the ATMs where empty and it was HOT.

I go into peats, look around for a bit, couldn't find any thermal paste on the shelves so i ask the guy behind the counter. I tell him I need "some thermal paste, some thermal pads, and a southbridge heatsink" he goes "we had the thermal pads and heatsink but they are sold out and the guy who orders them is on holiday", I ask can I at least place an order for them, but "the guy who does that is on holiday", so after that he says they have some Artic Silver 5 compound, and confirms this with the guy beside him (great), he rummages for all of 10 seconds, then comes back and says "sorry we are all out of stock the guy who orders them will be in next week" *count to 10 walk away*

Go to ripoff maplins, and the best I could find was something called "Antec Formula 5" so I just bought it to get out of there. Anyway I looked it up on the internet and compared it to the best that Arctic Silver has out at the moment, and they are EXACTLY the same specs, which makes me wonder if Antec are just marketing the same stuff as Arctic Silver under another name.

My question now is, what is the RIGHT way to apply this?
There doesn't seem to be a right or wrong way, some places say place a rice grain ammount on, some say a pea, some say just put a blob in the middle and then press down the heatsink to spread it, some say spread it with a razor blade. This Antec stuff says to "put my finger in a plastic bag and use that to smear it onto the heatsink first then put that on the cpu?" So what is the most efficient way of doing it?

DemonOfTheFall

Credit card for the win!

Just apply it slowly in tiny amounts, spreading out with a credit card. Keep adding more till you have enough to put a thin film over the whole die.

gline

DemonOfTheFall wrote:

Credit card for the win!

Just apply it slowly in tiny amounts, spreading out with a credit card. Keep adding more till you have enough to put a thin film over the whole die.

should do the trick

hopeful

Just my 2c

I have always just placed a rice grain sized bit of TIM in the centre of the die and then attached the heatsink.
If applying to a heatsink that does not apply much pressure (like a NB sink) then I would spread the TIM with a credit card.
If I'm using a heatsink that I've not used before I would do a test fit with TIM but then take off the heatsink to ensure proper contact. Then I clean off the die and heatsink, reapply and refit.

Cuddlesworth

hopeful wrote:

Just my 2c

I have always just placed a rice grain sized bit of TIM in the centre of the die and then attached the heatsink.
If applying to a heatsink that does not apply much pressure (like a NB sink) then I would spread the TIM with a credit card.
If I'm using a heatsink that I've not used before I would do a test fit with TIM but then take off the heatsink to ensure proper contact. Then I clean off the die and heatsink, reapply and refit.

Ditto, the pressure just forces the tim outwards. Its how I get the best contact with my storm.

L31mr0d

Ok well i've been busy over the weekend but I had a free hour today to replace the paste. This stuff by antec is like tar or something, which I suppose is a good thing. Anyway heres a photo of how much I put on the die, and thats all.

and heres a photo of the die after its spread out. I used my Mensa card to spread it (about all its good for) I had to clean off the previous TIM so used the card to scrape it off, I then cleaned it with the acetone I have, little did I know the acetone would eat right through the barcode on the card. Ironic that I would do something so stupid with something thats supposed to show that i'm smart

Funny thing now is, my temps have dropped, but only to 34'c from 38'c, which is the temperature I expected from using the silver TIM from reading around reviews. I'm puzzled that i'm seeing no temperature drop due to the 9500. Either AMD release amazing heatsinks with their CPUs or i'm consistantly doing something wrong. It says to wait 200hrs :eek: for the paste to reach full effectiveness. Has anyone any experience with silver TIM, does anything get any better after 200 hrs?

gline

L31mr0d wrote:

Has anyone any experience with silver TIM, does anything get any better after 200 hrs?

not really

Dman_15

L31mr0d wrote:

Also, if you look at the pictures it says "6800 GT" below the nvidia chip, wtf??? this is an ultra, do they use the same chip as the GT?

GT's have the second small DIE below the main square one.

Ultras don't. Apart from that the only difference is clock speeds. BFG probably ran short of Ultra's and overclocked and picked their best GT's and sold them as ultras

TomCo

True, I believe there were difficulties in manufacturing the ultra model in large quantities.

L31mr0d

wait, ok my one DOES have the second small die? Is it the GT then, just with an Ultra BIOS? How would I be able to check for sure. I did buy it on ebay so they could of just got a GT and put an Ultra heatsink on it.

One good thing thats come out of these fans, is that i'm now able to overclock the vga to 450/1140 from 400/1100. The Ultras are horrible OC'ers as far as I can gather, so i'm glad with whatever I can get, before I usually had to underclock it to around 380/1000 because I would start to get artifacts. Now it runs smooth, and gives me an extra 5fps in most games (it matters)

I'm thinking the location of the side fan is whats causing the problem. My CPU is showing no signs of cooling down, in fact its gone back up to idling at 40'c. This rise is due in part to the temperature lately, but i've seen no drop at all from what I was getting before this new heatsink. The only change i've made apart from the cpu heatsink and fan was to move the side fan from over the cpu to below the vga, which is probably whats allowing me to get such a good OC on the vga and not on the CPU. I've no option for putting it back where it was as it won't fit, unless I mount another one on the outside of the case. So I guess i'll give it a few days burn in, then attempt an OC on the CPU, and try and break the 3Ghz barrier on air (damn you conzy), i'm hoping maybe these temps are somehow inaccurate. If I get any BSODs, i'll know they aren't

BTW: Found these 2 little apps yous might find handy
http://www.thecoolest.zerobrains.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=65
http://www.thecoolest.zerobrains.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=137

gline

40 degrees idle isnt the end of the world in this heat we are having, i wouldnt be too worried about that.

try getting some better case fans with more cfm if u want lower temps

L31mr0d

ok this might seem like a n00b mistake to make, but i'm learning.

I'm using Systool with samurize on the desktop to view the CPU temps. At present its showing the CPU Socket temperature at 37'c and no other temp. When I go into Systool, it shows another CPU temp that I hadn't noticed before which is the "CPU Diode Temperature", which at present is 26'c, and remains constantly 10 degrees lower than the CPU Socket temp even under stress (ran OCCT for 30 then CPUburn for 10)

What is the difference between these 2 temps and which is the most accurate. When you's read the CPU temp are you reading the socket or the diode temp?

L31mr0d

Yeah so turns out it doesn't matter anyway.

I've been at 2.8Ghz for the last few months prime stable with my 3700+ and was waiting to get a new CPU cooler before pushing it anymore. My temps have finally settled around 35'c at 2.8, so I tried pushing the clock a little higher for the CPU, I turned everything else down (the RAM divider set to 1:2 and the HyperTransport to x1) and kept the CPU multi at 11.

The best I could get was from a HTT of 255Mhz to 258Mhz prime stable @ 1.6v (giving me 2.84Ghz). Anything past that and it stays prime stable for only 5 minutes. The funny thing is my temps haven't really changed at all, at full load i'm maxing out at 48'c. My Tcasemax is at 59'c so I should be able to push it a little more, but I can't seem to get it stable.

Is there something i'm doing wrong or have I hit the CPUs limit? Could my mobo be the problem, as I thought as long as the CPU wasn't overheating you could continue to push it?

gline

L31mr0d wrote:

as I thought as long as the CPU wasn't overheating you could continue to push it?

loads of factors it could be

maybe mobo or that is the limit of the cpu

awhir

TRY motherboard monitor i find it really good you can also get some other progra,s to work with it.