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What's the story with needing a license for having a trailer?

frobisher

I'm just applying for my driving test online and the form gives me the regular B option and an EB option for having a trailer.

What's the story with this? Is it a seperate test with which I'm not allowed tow a trailer?

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leeroybrown

Offhand (although I'm not 100% sure) I thnk that a full B license is a requirement to apply for EB. Also, a driver on a full B license can tow a trailer as long as it weighs less that 750Kg and the total laden vehicle weight (including trailer) is less than 3500Kg.

John R

yep, you need a full licence for the category before you can get a provisional for the trailer.

Silvera

You can tow a trailer on a B licence provided -

The gross vehicle weight of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3500kg.
(i.e. not retricted to a max trailer weight of 750kg).

Otherwise an EB licence is required.

Litcagral

John R wrote:

yep, you need a full licence for the category before you can get a provisional for the trailer.

Except in categories A and W.

fits

Silvera wrote:

You can tow a trailer on a B licence provided -

The gross vehicle weight of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3500kg.
(i.e. not retricted to a max trailer weight of 750kg).

Otherwise an EB licence is required.

what is the gross vehicle weight of the trailer? Is it the maximum laden weight of it? (I'm thinking about horse trailers here, have never figured out the law on this)

Litcagral

fits wrote:

what is the gross vehicle weight of the trailer? Is it the maximum laden weight of it? (I'm thinking about horse trailers here, have never figured out the law on this)

Gross weight = trailer + load (i.e. horsebox+horse)

fits

sorry to be blond, but is it
trailer plus maximum (recommended by manufacturer) load?
or just trailer plus load?

I'd say this law is often broken

BrianD3

It's maximum design gross vehicle weight that counts. So if you have a trailer that *could* carry X amount that is the figure you need to use. Not the actual laden weight of the trailer at the time you're towing it

For instance. kerb weight of a Toyota Landcruiser probably around 2000 kg
max d.g.v.w with passengers and cargo probably around 2700 kg
Kerb weight of a double horsebox probably around 700 kg?
Max design g.v.w probably around 2500 kg

So you cannot drive the above combination on a B licence even if you are pulling an empty hosebox and the Landcruiser just has the driver aboard. Because the figures you use are 2700 + 2500.

BTW in the example above it may be illegal to tow a 2500 kg d.g.v.w horsebox with a 2000 kg kerb weight Landcruiser From transport.ie
"the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle"

I am a little confused about this - what if Toyota say the the vehicle can tow x amount. Is this legally binding? What happens if Toyota's recommended max weight is different than the weight calculated using that quote I got from transport.ie

colm_mcm

I think it goes on the actual weight at the time?

fits

Is this a european wide law? and is it at all enforced here by either the gardai or insurance companies?
I'm beginning to think a non-hgv 2 horse lorry would be a better option.

BrianD3 wrote:

It's maximum design gross vehicle weight that counts. So if you have a trailer that *could* carry X amount that is the figure you need to use. Not the actual laden weight of the trailer at the time you're towing it

For instance. kerb weight of a Toyota Landcruiser probably around 2000 kg
max d.g.v.w with passengers and cargo probably around 2700 kg
Kerb weight of a double horsebox probably around 700 kg?
Max design g.v.w probably around 2500 kg

So you cannot drive the above combination on a B licence even if you are pulling an empty hosebox and the Landcruiser just has the driver aboard. Because the figures you use are 2700 + 2500.

BTW in the example above it may be illegal to tow a 2500 kg d.g.v.w horsebox with a 2000 kg kerb weight Landcruiser From transport.ie
"the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle"

I am a little confused about this - what if Toyota say the the vehicle can tow x amount. Is this legally binding? What happens if Toyota's recommended max weight is different than the weight calculated using that quote I got from transport.ie

bigfeller

Silvera wrote:

You can tow a trailer on a B licence provided -

The gross vehicle weight of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3500kg.
(i.e. not retricted to a max trailer weight of 750kg).

Otherwise an EB licence is required.

Silvera,

Could you post a link to where you got this info? If what you say is true (and I hope it is!!) then I won't have to do the EB licence. Otherwise I always understood it as the trailer must not be above 750kg and the and the weight of the trailer and vehicle can not be above 3500 - for an E licence!

Kermitt

The above is correct with the weight restrictions. As for the Landcruiser example, they are certified by Toyota to tow 3500kg with a BRAKED trailer. The problem arises with an unbraked trailer, then the weight sould be less than 80% of the unladen weight of the towing vehicle. (NB Most horseboxes/Ifor williams trailers etc are Braked)

If BrianD3's example were true then nobody would be able to tow horseboxes... but clearly every day you see them behind smaller cars (Forester, Passat etc) quite safely and legally.

Basically if you need to tow a horsebox, check the GVW on the stamp of the drawbar- then check the GVW of your towing car, and add them up. If it's less than 3500kg, you can fire ahead on a B license.

bigfeller

So, as the GVW of mine is 3050kg (even with the gear I carry it's nothing near that!) and the trailer is (approx) 1000kg I'm looking at an EB? Damnit!!

BrianD3

Kermitt wrote:

but clearly every day you see them behind smaller cars (Forester, Passat etc) quite safely and legally.

Are they though? When I ask people about the certified towing weights (braked and unbraked) for their vehicle most haven't a clue. The way it works in Ireland seems to be - if a vehicle can manage to pull a trailer at all then it must be safe and legal. Some drivers even brag about how heavy a trailer they managed to tow with their Fiesta diesel or whatever.

AFAIK the max braked towing weight for my Laguna is 1300 kg. Yet every day of the week I see similar size cars towing trailers that obviously weigh more than 1300 kg

Are these towing weights stated by the manufacturers legally binding?

Basically if you need to tow a horsebox, check the GVW on the stamp of the drawbar- then check the GVW of your towing car, and add them up. If it's less than 3500kg, you can fire ahead on a B license.

Well if it's a double horsebox then the ones I've seen are plated for 2500 kg. This means that there is no possibility of towing one legally on a B licence as you'd need to find a car which would tow the box legally and safely AND had a max d.g.v.w of <1000 kg.

Litcagral

For what it's worth The Rules of the Road state:

" if the trailer exceeds 750kg in laden weight or half the laden weight of the drawing vehicle (whichever is less) it must be fitted with brakes".

BTW has anyone here ever done a EB driving test. I have it by default from doing larger vehicle tests but I never heard of anyone doing a car and trailer test.

Incidently, there are no facilities for testing in category ED. I applied for it and got it without doing a test (obviously already had passed D first).

bigfeller

Does anyone know if I apply for a EB licence and get a provisional am I allowed to tow greater loads if I display L plates? Will I need to have a full EB holder with me? Why is there nowhere on line I can find this stuff. Oasis doesn't seem to have it!!

Litcagral

bigfeller wrote:

Does anyone know if I apply for a EB licence and get a provisional am I allowed to tow greater loads if I display L plates? Will I need to have a full EB holder with me? Why is there nowhere on line I can find this stuff. Oasis doesn't seem to have it!!

Try

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZSI352Y1999.html

Kermitt

BrianD3 wrote:

AFAIK the max braked towing weight for my Laguna is 1300 kg. Yet every day of the week I see similar size cars towing trailers that obviously weigh more than 1300 kg

Are these towing weights stated by the manufacturers legally binding?

Well if it's a double horsebox then the ones I've seen are plated for 2500 kg. This means that there is no possibility of towing one legally on a B licence as you'd need to find a car which would tow the box legally and safely AND had a max d.g.v.w of <1000 kg.

This is where things get a little grey when it comes to the law. The towing wieghts supplied by manufacturers are the maximum that they will certify that vehicle to tow safely. But it's not to say that those cars can only tow trailers with a GVW less than that amount (1600kg in your case as in many cars that size) It refers to the actual weight they can tow. I don't think those weights are legally binding from a license point...(though from a road safety point you could beg to differ) I think regardless of vehicle/trailer combination (within reason) If the Gross Vehicle Weight of the combined unit exceeds 3500kg you're on to an EB.

BrianD3

Kermitt wrote:

This is where things get a little grey when it comes to the law. The towing wieghts supplied by manufacturers are the maximum that they will certify that vehicle to tow safely. But it's not to say that those cars can only tow trailers with a GVW less than that amount (1600kg in your case as in many cars that size) It refers to the actual weight they can tow. I don't think those weights are legally binding from a license point...(though from a road safety point you could beg to differ) I think regardless of vehicle/trailer combination (within reason) If the Gross Vehicle Weight of the combined unit exceeds 3500kg you're on to an EB.

AFAIK you can go up to 4250 kg on a "B" if your trailer has d.g.v.w of <750 kg As for the rest of your post, this is my understanding too. I think

From a licence point of view it's the max design gross vehicle weight (i.e what they could carry) of the trailer and towing vehicle that count. That's pretty straightforward but for the fact that many trailers are homemade and nobody knows the spec. It's probably technically illegal to tow a trailer that doesn't have the weights stated on a plate on the hitch

From a "max towing weight recommended by the manufacturer" point of view it does seem to be the actual weight of the trailer. Eg it could be perfectly acceptable to use a Mondeo to pull an empty horsebox but not a full one

But then there's the statement from transport.ie. Nowhere does it say that this only applies to unbraked trailers. It just says that the max d.g.v.w of the trailer must not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle. In the above example, you could not tow even an empty horsebox with a Mondeo or with many jeeps for that matter. If your Horsebox had a max design weight of 2.5 tonnes there'd be maybe 1 or 2 jeeps on the Irish market that would have a kerb weight greater than this. Normal Landcrusiers, Pajeros etc. would not be heavy enough.

Anyone confused now?

Personally I think this whole thing needs to be clarifed. I'd also be in favour of a basic roadworthiness test for trailers as many are in a diabolical state. Any trailer that doesn't pass its test is illegal to use on a public road. At the moment very few trailers have working lights and I have seen several wheels fly off trailers and demolish whatever they hit.

Litcagral

BrianD3 wrote:

AFAIK you can go up to 4250 kg on a "B" if your trailer has d.g.v.w of <750 kg As for the rest of your post, this is my understanding too. I think QUOTE]

Just to add to the confusion:

6. (1) A combination of vehicles which consists of a drawing vehicle and a trailer shall, for the purpose of these regulations, be regarded as a vehicle:—

(a) in category B where the drawing vehicle is in category B and the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle and the total design gross vehicle weight of the combination does not exceed 3,500 kg,

Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations 1999

Kermitt

BrianD3 wrote:

That's pretty straightforward but for the fact that many trailers are homemade and nobody knows the spec. It's probably technically illegal to tow a trailer that doesn't have the weights stated on a plate on the hitch

This is very true - Even I must admit to being guilty here. We have an 8x4 twin axle trailer at home that I tow from time to time with my golf. I'm sure the car wouldn't be able to safely tow the trailer at full capacity but I only ever use it for moving a bit of timber or the like. Legally it satisfies the requirements at 550kg unladen,(and its braked). but I'm always concerned that the law will pull me some day for it and try to do me. As far as I'm concerned its safe otherwise I wouldn't do it. It might get to the stage where you need a license to tow anything other than a single axle trailer.

BrianD3

Litcagral wrote:

Just to add to the confusion:

6. (1) A combination of vehicles which consists of a drawing vehicle and a trailer shall, for the purpose of these regulations, be regarded as a vehicle:—

(a) in category B where the drawing vehicle is in category B and the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle and the total design gross vehicle weight of the combination does not exceed 3,500 kg,

(b) in category B, C1, C, D1 or D where the drawing vehicle is in category B, C1, C, D1 or D, respectively, and the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer does not exceed 750 kg,

I enquired about this before and was told that it is 3500 kg total OR <=750 kg for the trailer. In effect, any "B" licence holder can drive any "B" vehicle with a <=750kg d.g.v.w trailer attached. Eg a big Ford Transit (3500 kg d.g.v.w on its own) can tow a little trailer <=750 kg. That's where the 4250 kg comes from.

Now I'm wondering does the above statement "design gross vehicle weight of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle" only apply to those towing with a B licence or does it apply to EB as well. This seems more like a vehicle safety issue than a licensing issue which is why i'm wondering.

The more we delve into this the clearer it becomes that there are thousands of people out there driving around with a) trailers too heavy for the towing vehicle b) a B licence when they need EB. Presumably this could have implications for insurance?

PS I tow myself (big but light trailers) and am alright with my B licence.

PPS many people out ther have EB without ever having done a trailer test. Because EB used to be awarded automatically when you did your car test. I think this rule was changed sometime around 1990-1992

Hotblack Desiato

I think it's worded more clearly here.
http://www.transport.ie/roads/licensing/licence/index.asp?lang=ENG&loc=1836#Towing_a_Trailer

Department of Transport wrote:

Towing a Trailer

If you hold a category B licence and wish to tow a trailer you may do so provided
(1) the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle and the combination does not exceed 3500 kg or
(2) the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer does not exceed 750 kg.

If you wish to tow a heavier trailer you must hold a category EB licence.

The holder of a driving licence in category C1, C, D1 or D may tow a trailer provided the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer does not exceed 750 kg. Categories EC1, EC, ED1 or ED (depending on the towing vehicle) must be held in order to tow trailers in excess of 750 kg.

Presumably all of this is further qualified by the manufacturer's specified towing weight for your vehicle.

fits

It sounds like its safest for me to do the EB as I got my license in 99. I'm more worried about insurance than anything else... Cant see the gardai ever having the will to enforce such vague regulations.

Either that or get a nice little 3 and a half tonne horse truck.

cast_iron

It can't be stated any clearer than that in ninja's post.
Basically if your trailer weight including load can carry >750kg, you need an EB licence. With a horse box, i think you'll be over the limit on this alone.
I know of a few people with the EB licence, all in the equestrain business.

Strange thing is, you can be licenced to drive a forty foot artic (including trailer, obviously), but still can't drive a car and trailer!

BrianD3

cast_iron wrote:

It can't be stated any clearer than that in ninja's post.
Basically if your trailer weight including load can carry >750kg, you need an EB licence.

Or if the total d.g.v.w is >3500 kg

Strange thing is, you can be licenced to drive a forty foot artic (including trailer, obviously), but still can't drive a car and trailer!

I believe EB is awarded automatically with EC and EC1 so once you do an artic test you can drive an EB category combination. Not sure if the same is true for ED and ED1

Litcagral

BrianD3 wrote:

Or if the total d.g.v.w is >3500 kg

I believe EB is awarded automatically with EC and EC1 so once you do an artic test you can drive an EB category combination. Not sure if the same is true for ED and ED1

Yes, EB and EC1 are granted automatically after passing EC.

While there is a test for ED1 there is none available for ED - if you apply for it (and obviously already have D) they have to grant it (and then automatically ED1) to you.

Silvera

I first found out about the situation re towing on a 'B' licence when I was doing a bit of research into using an A-frame/Tow Dolly/Car Transporter some years ago via UK websites/literature.

Apparently, when the new (current) driving licences were being negotiated in Brussels in the mid-late 1980's they wanted to restrict holders of 'B' licences to tow a trailer of 750kg only (i.e. average domestic car trailer).
However, the UK authorities objected to this and insisted on the current (up to 3500kg combination) in order to allow people to tow caravans, small car transporters, etc without having to sit a seperate driving test.

So we can thank the UK authorities for getting this option for all of us !

I wrote to the Dept of Environment some years ago and have the (up to 3500kg comb) rules in writing (although they worded it backwards in the letter .... "750kg only OR 3500kg combo"!)

Incidentially, the current driving licences were introduced in 1989 - I had one of the old-syle papare licences for one year in 1988.

P.S. - Does anybody still have one of the old paper licences lying about ?

gstonesmx5

i have B and EB for work and ha do the test last year so just to repeat what has been siad.

there are only 6 vehicles that can tow 3.5 ton legaly.
land rover defender
land rover discovery
range rover
nissan patrol gr manual only
toyota landcruiser amazon.

your car/jeep manual will have the towing capacity of your car/jeep listed in it some where.
the garda are alowed to weigh you if they think you are over loaded and they have some weigh points around the country.
you insurance will be void if you are using your car/jeep outside its means (eg.overloaded,etc.)

on a B licence if your car/jeep weight + trailer weight + trailer contence = less than 3.5 ton you are ok.
if the total is more than 3.5ton you need an EB.
with an EB you can tow (trailer+contents=upto3.5) a max of 3.5ton.

its better to get the licence on the offchance an dits good to get good habbits from the start.

good luck