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"Miracle Man" Joao De Dues and his coming to Ireland

Saskia

A few days ago I saw the second full colour ad for him in a newspaper this month claiming that he has "healed 11 million people in 30 years". Now this is a very big claim to make even for someone in an occupation that can have more than a few sceptics. Have you heard of him or even know of someone who went to one of his seminars? Somewhere in the ad I noticed "no payment required". Hmmmmmm :rolleyes:

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Beruthiel

Saskia wrote:

claiming that he has "healed 11 million people in 30 years"

on the planet he comes from maybe.
blessed be the holy gord

jobonar

Saskia wrote:

"healed 11 million people in 30 years".QUOTE]

thats a very big claim to be making alright. have nevered heard of him but by the sounds of it he's a bit of a looney toon!

Slaanesh

I have a bit of a story.

My father passed away a few years back from MND(Motor Neurons Disease).
A few months prior to his death, my mother and father went to see Joao in Brazil. I am as sceptical as the next person. What my parents told (and showed) me still amazes me to this day. They have a small enough complex over there, the quality of life is quite basic. You do not pay for the service; however one can make a donation of any size.

The following recap is off the top of my head ... Joao performs 2 types of surgeries, visible and invisible. The visible takes place in front of a seated audience where volunteers go in front of Joao and get miraculous procedures performed. I say 'miraculous' because Joao tends to use a scalpel with no anaesthetic for his operations. The invisible operations take place in a spirit room where people with all sorts of maladies meditate and use the healing energy in the room.

At first I thought, what a load of phooey. But then they showed me the recording of what happened there. An elderly lady walked up in front of Joao (he speaks no English), he takes down her top and makes an incision below her breast and pulls out what a lump or growth. I'm thinking, "sure this could all be trickery". Out of the blue, my mother is up on the stage. She still doesn't really know why she got up, she wasn't sick that she knew of. She never told anyone anything about her. Joao made an incision in her scalp and squeezed out a cist, I couldn't believe my eyes! Mum said she only felt minor discomfort, he used no anaesthetic at all. He then stitched it with a needle and thread.

I could very well turn around and say, "What use was he? My dad is still dead and nothing will bring him back." When my dad came back from Brazil his limp was more pronounced and he was in a wheelchair at the airport. I was quite disheartened but my Dad seemed to be in great spirits and gained a new outlook on life. I think Joao prepared him for the inevitable. I think we still have the video at home.

If you have any questions feel free to PM me.

Sleepy

The guy uses a scalpel for his 'surgeries'?

For the love of Jeff, how did this guy get a visa? He sounds even more dangerous than the regular bible-belt faith "healers"...

These people are parasitic, feeding off the fear of others and selling them false hope. As you've just told us Slaanesh, the guy made your father's condition worse but sold him enough hope to lift his spirits. I don't mean to be cruel, but how do you know that your father's life wasn't in fact shortened by this 'surgery' he had performed upon him.

If this type of stuff worked, it would stand up to clinical investigation. The facts are that it doesn't. Read this month's Dubliner magasine for quite a good article on the subject. These are dangerous people and I would implore any boards.ie user to disuade any friend or family member from attending these theatres of false-hope should they be considering it.

Slaanesh

There was a documentary on him on RTE. He has been investigated by all sorts of doctors. Nobody can explain it.

My Dad being worse when he came back was just the nature of the disease and it's progression over time. I'm not trying to explain it, I just think that there are things out there that just can't be explained. All my opinion.

Beruthiel

Slaanesh wrote:

Nobody can explain it.

the brain is a powerful thing, much of it has yet to be fully explained. I have no problem believing that you can 'think' yourself better with some illnesses if the power of suggestion is strong enough and you are the type of person who is susceptible to that kind of thing.
As for him taking parts out of people, I'm betting he goes to the nearest butcher, buys some scraps and hides them up his sleeve, et voila

Slaanesh

Beruthiel wrote:

the brain is a powerful thing, much of it has yet to be fully explained. I have no problem believing that you can 'think' yourself better with some illnesses if the power of suggestion is strong enough and you are the type of person who is susceptible to that kind of thing.
As for him taking parts out of people, I'm betting he goes to the nearest butcher, buys some scraps and hides them up his sleeve, et voila

I have no problem it if ended up being only a placebo affect. Anything that made my Dad more comfortable I would accept. How about "don't knock it on the head till you've tried it.". Go look for the experiece, maybe it will open your eyes maybe it won't. You don't have to get your head chopped open or anything.

Gordon

Beruthiel wrote:

blessed be the holy gord

How may I serve you my child?

humanji

Beruthiel wrote:

the brain is a powerful thing, much of it has yet to be fully explained. I have no problem believing that you can 'think' yourself better with some illnesses if the power of suggestion is strong enough and you are the type of person who is susceptible to that kind of thing.
As for him taking parts out of people, I'm betting he goes to the nearest butcher, buys some scraps and hides them up his sleeve, et voila

That's exactly what he does and what the others like him do. It's all slight of hand and very disturbing that so many people will risk their lives thinking that he's donig anything but screwing them over. And the reason he doesn't need to charge is that rich people with little sense will pay huge amounts of money to him to get his "powers" to help them, so he doesn't have to charge the poorer people as he's already loaded.

Slaanesh

jomanji wrote:

That's exactly what he does and what the others like him do. It's all slight of hand and very disturbing that so many people will risk their lives thinking that he's donig anything but screwing them over. And the reason he doesn't need to charge is that rich people with little sense will pay huge amounts of money to him to get his "powers" to help them, so he doesn't have to charge the poorer people as he's already loaded.

But surely you're only guessing? To this day I'm skeptical but I'm not just going to say "he's a con artist" until I can prove it.

humanji

I've seen a couple of programs on this sort of thing and read the odd article. When you see how it's done it's quite impressive and difficult to point out what exactly they're doing, but it is a con. They're preying on peoples desire to believe the impossible because of the fear of death.

Beruthiel

Gordon wrote:

How may I serve you my child?

you wish

you'll have to excuse my spelling mistake
Holy Gourd

Sleepy

Slaanesh wrote:

But surely you're only guessing? To this day I'm skeptical but I'm not just going to say "he's a con artist" until I can prove it.

Not one case (that's one case of a 'healing', not a 'healer') has withstood the kind of peer review any normal branch of medicine must undergo before it can be deemed to be a medical treatment rather than quackery. While you claim sketicism you'll still recommend that people give this stuff a try using the standard "just because it can't be explained doesn't mean it doesn't work" line of the faith healer.

Ever watched an episode of Derren Browne's "Trick of the Mind" or his "Messiah" seires? During an episode of the latter he posed as an evangelical who had the power to convert people to christianity simply by touching them. He performed this 'miracle' on an entire room of atheist through the power of suggestion and NLP. The difference between the conmen and Derren Browne is that he admits that it's no more than a manipulation of the mind and showmanship (and undoes the damage he's caused afterwards).

You might ask what harm can someone easing the pain of the terminally ill do, or what harm can be had by giving people hope. I'd answer this with the facts: people have died unnecessarily by attending these 'miracle men' instead of seeking conventional medecine which could have cured them and it's incredibly cruel to give a terminal patient's family false hope of a recovery when they should be using what little time they have to say goodbye.

Slaanesh

Sleepy wrote:

You might ask what harm can someone easing the pain of the terminally ill do, or what harm can be had by giving people hope. I'd answer this with the facts: people have died unnecessarily by attending these 'miracle men' instead of seeking conventional medecine which could have cured them and it's incredibly cruel to give a terminal patient's family false hope of a recovery when they should be using what little time they have to say goodbye.

I understand where you are coming from. MND is incurable and my dad's case was rapid, died within 10 months from diagnosis. He did have a nice holiday to Brazil, I don't feel angry that he didn't get cured. Joao is not recognised by western medicine because they can't explain him. Alot of the time when they have a terminally ill patient they have been known to suggest Joao. That is what happened with my Dad.

I am not blindly following what this man does, I find it intriguing and I like to think that current science does not have an answer for everything. It could be bad to give people false hopes but my parents went in with an open mind. Sure Mum might have had some hopes but my Dad was the biggest skeptic.

Gordon

Slaanesh wrote:

Joao tends to use a scalpel with no anaesthetic for his operations.

I hope he uses sterile equipment as Psychic Surgeons tend to be quite messy with the blood that gets sloshed around.

(nice Freudian slip tho Bru!)

Sleepy

Slaanesh wrote:

I like to think that current science does not have an answer for everything.

That's exactly the desire that gives these guys business. Of course science can't explain everything, however it can explain that these guys are shysters preying on the sick and desperate.

Do you not think that your mother being given false hope (as well as being convinced she'd been cured of something herself) was an extremely cruel thing to do to a woman in her position at the time? Presumably your parents made some kind of donation to the guy as well, so I'm amazed that it doesn't make you angry to see that your parents were taken advantage of in this situation. Maybe you can brush these things off easier than me but personally I'd be livid.

Gordon

Here's the guy's Wiki entry

Slaanesh

I think I'm a bit close to this to reply indifferently and find past emotions coming up so I hope you don't mind if I step away from this.

Cheers.

Sleepy

Gordon wrote:

Here's the guy's Wiki entry

The TALK page is worth a read, the article has been written by a follower of De Dues.

Sleepy

Slaanesh wrote:

I think I'm a bit close to this to reply indifferently and find past emotions coming up so I hope you don't mind if I step away from this.

Cheers.

Of course not. Sorry if I opened old wounds, I can get a bit worked up on topics like this.

Sean7

Fair play to you for talking about it man, I'm sure it's still a touchy subject.

Myself I'm quite skeptical and I can't help but reminded of Man on the Moon where Andy Kaufman see the "Miracle Healer" guy pick up a bloody thing and realises how the trick is done because he knows its not real it's loss whatever psychological effect that it might have had on other people

armitage_skanks

I know of someone there (brazil) at the moment. Im deeply skeptical of faith-healers, but acknowledge that
1) The healing power of belief can be very strong
2) Not all these guys are in it for the money (many genuinely believe they can do what they claim)

If some good comes of it, and the people seeking treatment arent fleeced, i dont have any particular problem with it. I would worry about the 'physical operations' this guy does though, ive seen a video on his website of him prodding away at someones eye with a scalpel.

fits

Don't know much about this subject and am generally a total sceptic about these things. I saw the True Lives documentary on him last year. They were in the company of a researcher from Harvard medical school, who was there to prove it was all phoney.

They showed footage of the surgery.. Guy from Harvard was amazed that noone seems to get infections after this unsterile surgery. I find this mad too, I mean infection is a huge problem in hospitals. Anyway, he said afterwards that he has no way of explaining it, but healing definitely does occur. It may be the power of the brain, but is that a bad thing???

Joau does nothing but this 7 days a week I believe, and lives as a pauper, so he doesnt benefit financially or anything.

Sarky

Saskia wrote:

"healed 11 million people in 30 years"

Either he's a complete and utter fraud, or Jesus was a lazy git.

Saskia

Im also sorry if I opened old wounds Slaanesh. I notice his email contact is to Saint John Of Gods. They must be the ones paying for the newspaper ads one would presume.

joejoem

Slaanesh wrote:

I have a bit of a story.

My father passed away a few years back from MND(Motor Neurons Disease).
A few months prior to his death, my mother and father went to see Joao in Brazil. I am as sceptical as the next person. What my parents told (and showed) me still amazes me to this day. They have a small enough complex over there, the quality of life is quite basic. You do not pay for the service; however one can make a donation of any size.

The following recap is off the top of my head ... Joao performs 2 types of surgeries, visible and invisible. The visible takes place in front of a seated audience where volunteers go in front of Joao and get miraculous procedures performed. I say 'miraculous' because Joao tends to use a scalpel with no anaesthetic for his operations. The invisible operations take place in a spirit room where people with all sorts of maladies meditate and use the healing energy in the room.

At first I thought, what a load of phooey. But then they showed me the recording of what happened there. An elderly lady walked up in front of Joao (he speaks no English), he takes down her top and makes an incision below her breast and pulls out what a lump or growth. I'm thinking, "sure this could all be trickery". Out of the blue, my mother is up on the stage. She still doesn't really know why she got up, she wasn't sick that she knew of. She never told anyone anything about her. Joao made an incision in her scalp and squeezed out a cist, I couldn't believe my eyes! Mum said she only felt minor discomfort, he used no anaesthetic at all. He then stitched it with a needle and thread.

I could very well turn around and say, "What use was he? My dad is still dead and nothing will bring him back." When my dad came back from Brazil his limp was more pronounced and he was in a wheelchair at the airport. I was quite disheartened but my Dad seemed to be in great spirits and gained a new outlook on life. I think Joao prepared him for the inevitable. I think we still have the video at home.

If you have any questions feel free to PM me.

Thats crazy.

There seems to be a longing in Ireland for an alternative like this. The population seems to find it easy to believe that there are alternatives to medical science.

Spiritualism is common now, not just a hippy item as it was. Its nice to see.

Ivan was here a few weeks ago