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C Haughey

darkman2

The man himself..... My question is was he actually a good leader behind the corruption. He did do some good things and I kinda feel just a tad sorry fror him now:rolleyes: (awaits onslaught:( )

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junkyard

No, but I'd sat there's an EU grant available.:)

Esel

Cork wrote:

How was the rest of Ireland is screwed?

See my post on page 1 of this thread!

Cork

CJH has settled his taxes. He was not in power for the majority of the 80's. That was a FG/Labour government that doubled the national debt.

CJH's biggest achievement was to turn this country around.

He introduced social partnership & since then this country has enjoyed employment.

Sure, he has had failings.

But I believe he has been more positive than negative.

We should probably erect a big statue

Dingle (An Daingean) have beat us to it.

Esel

Cork wrote:

CJH has settled his taxes. He was not in power for the majority of the 80's. That was a FG/Labour government that doubled the national debt.

CJH's biggest achievement was to turn this country around.

He introduced social partnership & since then this country has enjoyed employment.

Sure, he has had failings.

But I believe he has been more positive than negative.

Dingle (An Daingean) have beat us to it.

Where can I get a pair of those rose-tinted glasses? They seem to do a good job at keeping reality at bay.:rolleyes:

Cork

esel wrote:

Where can I get a pair of those rose-tinted glasses? They seem to do a good job at keeping reality at bay.:rolleyes:

Reality is that the tribunrerals did not proove that Haughy did favours for one brown cent of monies he got.

Such donations were wrong. That said, he was not the only TD in reciept of donations from individuals.

[Deleted User]

Im no fan of CJ but in fairness the woman of the keegans that lost her two kids in the stardust did say he was the only politician that ever made time for them to this day and did call a tribunal of investigation the day after the tragedy.

casanova_kid

Cork wrote:

How was the rest of Ireland is screwed?

CJH took donations from individuals such as Dunne. Many politicians did the same.

Yet Haughy brought in Social Partnership, Free Travel For Oaps, Succession Act, Temple Bar, Knock Airport, Did up Government Buildings, etc.

CJH should not have taken private donations. Granted.

But the guy was one of this country's best politicians.

Wasn't actually around myself, but i heard Irealnd was pretty **** back then. Emigration and all that.

Hagar

Deleted User wrote:

Im no fan of CJ but in fairness the woman of the keegans that lost her two kids in the stardust did say he was the only politician that ever made time for them to this day and did call a tribunal of investigation the day after the tragedy.

What was the outcome? And what happened to the Stardust owner, Mr Butterly?

Butterly also happens to be name of one of the biggest growers around the North County Dublin area which was then a Fianna Fail stronghold.
But there's no implied connection there of course.:rolleyes:

is_that_so

I think a lot of what is being spewed here is known as "revisionism". As I posted elsewhere go and read about the man (or see DublinWriter's post) and what he did, especially what was done long before many posters here were even dreamt of.
What will haunt him more than any ill feelings or abuse here is the fact that his legacy has been destroyed by his own corruption. TBH some of the comments here say more about what the posters themelves represent.

If you have so much of a need to vent your spleen on an 80 year old man, ask yourself where your priorities in life are.

He did some good things, a lot of bad things and he will be dead sooner rather than later.
He killed no-one , committed no appalling crimes but was a very corrupt man.

FIN

junkyard

To get to be the biggest fish the trick is not to get caught. I think in fairness Haughey got off very lightly for his sins considering he got so much money for nothing, better men have been sent to jail for a long time for less.

Capt'n Midnight

is_that_so wrote:

If you have so much of a need to vent your spleen on an 80 year old man, ask yourself where your priorities in life are.

He did some good things, a lot of bad things and he will be dead sooner rather than later.
He killed no-one , committed no appalling crimes but was a very corrupt man.

FIN

He killed no one, just like no-one has been killed in the current health crisis. IIRC a human life is worth €1 million to the bean counters as an amount of money to spend to prevent a death. On that basis the money wasted by FF in the Haughy... Also 1979 driver license amnesty, it's clear that the standards of drivers and traffic law enforcement has something to do with our appaling death rate. And the wonderful N-road imporvements, like the one in Mayo that stoped at the edge of Mr Flynns constituency, how many deaths have been caused by diversion of resources in like manner ?

When Poland was invaded by the Russians in 1939 something like 22,000 Polish officers were killed. Far less were killed in the Nuremberg Trials, though Stalin had recomended executing over 50,000 Germans as an example. I've wondered if Yugoslavia would have been any different had any of the perpretrators of the killings actually feared justice. - Unless there is some disincentive to being dishonest we can only expect more of this sort of thing. Going after an 80 year old is not a matter of justice it's about prevention too.

Just because you don't hear about corruption don't mean it ain't happening now. Most of what happened in the past was only revealled far too late.

On another note - he didn't declare a holiday after the Rumania match in the world cup, when the country more or less shut down anyway, but did borrow a lot of stuff from the national museum around the same time for personal use.

Esel

Let us also acknowledge that Adolf Hitler did a lot of good things for Germany. He had the autobahns built, he restored national pride etc. This is in no way to imply any similarity between Hitler and Haughey, just to point out that there are always pros and cons to every situation.

Maybe it's the difference between the words 'implicit' and 'explicit'. Not sure if Hitler explicitly killed anyone (apart from during his service in the First World War). Words he spoke; orders he gave on the other hand....

How many other corrupt people (not only politicians) are there here who luckily do not have a Ben Dunne in the wings waiting to bring down the house of cards? Circles within Golden Circles within . . . . ad nauseam.

Where is the 'vomiting' smilie when you need it?

The_Minister

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

He was a gun-runner,

Please explain.

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

He took money out of Brian Lenihans liver transplant fund. Whatever about shafting the public "Health cuts hurt the old, the sick and the handicapped", doing it to your own is really low even by any standards.

Has that been proven?

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

b/ Because of their financial policies we lost a decade and a much of a generation - most of the NRA infrastrcuture could have been build them for a tiny fraction of the price, providing employment and the celtic tiger would have paid for it. Instead we got the M50 toll bridge and people spending the equlivant of a day per week sitting in cars.

We didn't have the f*cking money to build them .

Esel

Firespinner wrote:

Please explain.

Has that been proven?

We didn't have the f*cking money to build them .

1. Google 'Arms Trial'.

2. Proven - as in 'in a court of law' - maybe not. Accepted as fact - yes.

3. We (the people aka the State) didn't have the money (aka the tax revenue) - because there was such rampant, condoned tax evasion happening.

[Deleted User]

Hagar wrote:

What was the outcome? And what happened to the Stardust owner, Mr Butterly?

Butterly also happens to be name of one of the biggest growers around the North County Dublin area which was then a Fianna Fail stronghold.
But there's no implied connection there of course.:rolleyes:

I understand what your saying that cj and butterly may have been scratching each others backs and maybe thats true i honestly dont know but the outcome of the whole tragic business was none of haugheys doing.

haughey you could see from the archive footage was genuinely distraught by the whole tragedy and as far as im concerned he did go by the book in trying to investigate the matter. I know i probably sound like a haugheys PR man but i like to call a spade a spade. I dont like the way rte presented the documentary of him making him out to be some sort of powerful leader. Personally i never liked the look of him. Haughey once said tighten your belts whilst he loosened his own.

I just think he done more for them families then a certain mr smug smiley face himself who is from the north circular rd nearby or there and there abouts am i right?

on the subject of EB i would like nothing more then to see him brought to justice over that tragedy and personally if he was to open his business in my village in co tipperary i wouldnt take stuff for nothing from him but thats another topic for another day

Sleepy

4Xcut wrote:

Did you actually just say that the man deserves cancer?

Yes. Yes I did.

DublinWriter

casanova_kid wrote:

Lining your own pocket while the rest of Ireland is screwed, He deserves no sympathy from the public.

If so, neither do the rest of us!

meditraitor

Cork wrote:

CJH is not responsible for people commuting to work. .

Thats right, but the problems with our transport network come from the fact that he did not invest in public transport therefore increasing the pressure on our roads due to an increase in personal transport.

Cork wrote:

He was responsible for the IFSC, Temple Bar, social Partnership, Government Buildings etc..

The Idea's for the IFSC and temple bar were not FF Idea's! Similiar measures to the IFSC(centralised financial hubs) and temple bar(investment in tourist centre's within city) had been in use in most other major european cities for 10-20 years before they were introduced into dublin, if anything FF were a bit slow on the uptake.

Cork wrote:

Compare this to the list of Achievements of say Enda Kenny?.

Was he taoisach at any stage?

Cork wrote:

CJH should have not taken money from individuals. TDs of many other political partys did likewise..

He was comitting crimes, and he was the leader of our government, nuff said

Cork wrote:

I think Haughy achieved much that said - he had his faults.

He achieved little and had many faults,

DublinWriter

meditraitor wrote:

The Idea's for the IFSC and temple bar were not FF Idea's! Similiar measures to the IFSC(centralised financial hubs) and temple bar(investment in tourist centre's within city) had been in use in most other major european cities for 10-20 years before they were introduced into dublin, if anything FF were a bit slow on the uptake.

Wrong. Where and when? Examples on a postcard please.

I can't believe I'm defending CJH *buries head in hands*

[Deleted User]

DublinWriter wrote:

Wrong. Where and when? Examples on a postcard please.

Have to echo that. I'm sure the knowledge that the IFSC concept was common everywhere was news to the international companies that have moved billions and billions through there in the past 15 years... What other EU countries had an equivalent?

meditraitor

DublinWriter wrote:

Wrong. Where and when? Examples on a postcard please.

I can't believe I'm defending CJH *buries head in hands*

ConorFF74 wrote:

Have to echo that. I'm sure the knowledge that the IFSC concept was common everywhere was news to the international companies that have moved billions and billions through there in the past 15 years... What other EU countries had an equivalent?

The history of financial hubs shows that there was no central financial city until London and Paris emerged as financial centers in 1870, even though many cities provided financial service, including Amsterdam, Berlin, Florence, Frankfurt, Genova, Hamburg, London, Milan, New York, Paris, Philadelphia, Rome, Turin, Venice and Zurich. In 1870, London and Paris began to emerge as the financial hubs, with London remaining an international financial center through World War I, when Paris gave way to London after France was occupied by Germany. After World War I, New York challenged London, competing until the Great Depression. In later stage of the Great Depression, New York surpassed London and held its position as the dominant financial center until the World War II. However, when America implemented ‘Regulation Q,’ which set a ceiling on bank deposit interest rates, enormous deposits were moved overseas. London gained the momentum to restore its position driven by the growth of the euro-dollar and euro currency markets. Recently, Frankfurt, home of European Central Bank (ECB), claimed its function as a financial hub and reinforced its status with the introduction of the euro (Kaufman, 2001).
The success of the financial hubs has depended upon factors such as transportation hub, political capital, commercial centers, headquarters of a central bank and war. Kindleberger (1974) emphasized that financial centers are developed for trade and financial transactions and operations are concentrated into a specific region.....

And the fact that it was DERMOT DESMONDS idea also comes into play here,

Charlie Haughy my hole, he was a liar and a thief and thats all he will ever be...

is_that_so

Ken Whittaker, Garret Fitzgerald, CJ Haughey (early years-pre 1970) Sean Lemass, Donogh O'Malley, Brendan Corish and a few more who escape my mind were key figures of the sixties who helped drag Ireland into the 20th century.
If blaming the current ills of the country on an ailing but unquestionably corrupt individual makes you feel good then who am I to argue. In the meantime I'd recommend "Transformation of Ireland" by Diarmuid Ferriter for some much needed perspective ;given that is seriously lacking in some of the posts here.

[Deleted User]

meditraitor wrote:

The success of the financial hubs has depended upon factors such as transportation hub, political capital, commercial centers, headquarters of a central bank and war.

That's all well and good and the history of financial hubs informative but absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking. I was specifically referring to the tax reliefs given, particularly in corporation tax for foreign companies, which insured that billions of euros of financial transactions were routed through Dublin. As for it being Dermot Desmond's idea, that may be true - Socialism wasn't Joe Higgins idea, does that makes his work somehow less legitimate or worthy of ridicule?

nesf

Sleepy wrote:

Yes. Yes I did.

Cop on mate. Don't be posting antagonistic insensitive crap like that on here.

Cheers.

[Deleted User]

Hagar wrote:

What was the outcome? And what happened to the Stardust owner, Mr Butterly?

Butterly also happens to be name of one of the biggest growers around the North County Dublin area which was then a Fianna Fail stronghold.
But there's no implied connection there of course.:rolleyes:

So are you saying that Haughey 'got to' Ronan Keane, who chaired the Stardust Enquiry? Or that he introduced the Criminal Damages legislation decades before predicting that one day it would help a friend?

It gets deeper. Pat Rabbitte is based in Dublin, as is Twink and Larry Gogan. Do you think they could all be involved too? My God, you must not be able to sleep at night with the conspiracies that flow from your hilarious theory 'X and Y were both in North Dublin, there MUST be a link'...

Whatever about respecting Haughey, would have thought the Stardust victims deserve a bit more respect than some conspiracy theorists using it to make cheap points on a political forum. If you think Mrs. Keegan was wrong in her opinion about CJH, fair enough, but let's not wade through your fantasies either...

Hagar

Deleted User wrote:

Twink and Larry Gogan. Do you think they could all be involved too?

Christ were they at it too?

Seriously though, I was associated with the growing industry in North Co. Dublin for 13 years and without going into specifics I can tell you I personally know of serious cash payments, favours done in return, serious favours I might add. OK unless I want to put my neck and Boards.ie into a legal noose here I can say no more, but trust me, I am not lying.

Cork

meditraitor wrote:

The Idea's for the IFSC and temple bar were not FF Idea's! Similiar measures to the IFSC(centralised financial hubs) and temple bar(investment in tourist centre's within city) had been in use in most other major european cities for 10-20 years before they were introduced into dublin, if anything FF were a bit slow on the uptake,

Others may have talked about it but CJH delivered it.

Facts are CJH did this country some service. He prevented Dessie O Malley from becoming leader of FF. He did up Government Buildings. He pushed the IFSC & Temple Bar Projects etc.

No decisions taken by him have been linked to payments.

He should not have taken donations from others. He was not the only politician to do so.

4Xcut

dbnavan wrote:

maybe when FG actually get into power, you can compare them!

yeah and when jesus christ runs for taoiseach we can hold CJH up against him and compare. But we all know that's not going to happen:D

mountainyman

Conor 74
It is not fair to ask if Ronan Keane had been got at as if this were a rhetorical question as we are unable to discuss the matter because of the nature of this country's libel laws. It is characteristic of Haughey to appoint his cuckold to chair such an inquiry and characteristic of Keane that he accepted.
MM

Slutmonkey57b

I'd have to echo the comment that if anyone deserves cancer, it's Haughy. Here is a man who was the ultimate personification of "cute hoor" corrupt Ireland - a man who bought a private island, a massive estate, set up his son with a helicopter business operating out of Dublin Airport, and spent £1,000 on a shirt at a time when his salary wouldn't cover a tenth of his expenses, and he had no other registered business interests. If his corruption doesn't bother you, then think of it like this: what he was actually doing was going to the irish people, reaching into their pockets, and taking what little money they had for himself. Maybe not a lot of each person, but enough. If half the money that had been thrown around in bribes and direct corruption in the 70's and 80's had gone into the places it was supposed to be going, then we wouldn't have the massive infrastructural deficit we have today. Don't forget the M50 was originally supposed to be built in the 70's. Had it been, it wouldn't have been the disaster it is today - we'd have been expanding an existing road, not trying to squeeze a new one in around massive unplanned, unstructured housing estates.

If you're expecting me to give him kudos for ridiculous parish-pump vanity projects like Knock "international" Airport - a scheme to bring an international airport to a place where there was no demand for one except from a Catholic priest who had deluded notions of the number of flocking pilgrims - then you're going to be waiting a long time.

If you're wondering why he was never roasted in the tribunals, the answer is simple: He cried off with a doctors' note stating he was bedridden, on the verge of death, and incapable of answering questions, only to stage a miraculous recovery after being excused! Nothing like the Guinness Trial's famous "Oh I've got Alzhimers I can't testify, thank you very much yer honour, oh look miraculous recovery thank the lord" situation - more cute hoor Irishness if ever there was one.

Also don't forget that the people implicated in the tribunals are all small fry - as one legal commentator noted in the Phoenix, if ever you wanted to guarantee the big names would be protected, then the tribunals were a godsend.

As for the credit for the celtic tiger - the credit for that goes to an organisation called Enterprise Ireland - the much vilified civil servants who organise and promote Ireland to business abroad, not to the cute hoor corrupt politicians who do little but reinforce the idea that this is a third world tinpot country with their antics. Massive (and under EU regulations technically illegal) 10-year corporation tax amnesties and grants are what brought Intel, Microsoft and Dell here - not the bull spouted about Ireland's well-educated workforce (how did we get such a well educated workforce from people educated in the starved 80's system I wonder?) or phony politicians standing round for photoshoots.

And if you're forgetting what the man was really about;
Arms Trial.
Where else would you get a gun-runner thrown out of cabinet in disgrace elected to prime minister? And you want me to give him credit?