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The proper use of roundabouts

DubTony

Tonight I was accosted by another driver. Here's the story.

I came down Ballycullen Rd to the roundabout. There was a car on the "outside lane" of the roundabout with the right indicator on. I was going straight through (staying on Ballycullen Rd) so took position in the left lane. As the traffic cleared I proceeded onto the roundabout with the other car beside and slightly behind me. I stayed in lane, i.e. to the left, indicated a left turn just after the first exit and carried on down Ballycullen Rd. The other car exited the roundabout at the same point and was still beside / behind me. He braked (he had to) and blew his horn. All the way down Ballycullen Rd he flashed his lights and blew his horn. When I stopped at the lights at Firhouse Rd., he got out of his car and gave me an earful about cutting him up on the roundabout. I told him to get a copy of the rules of the road. (By the way, I haven't even looked at one of those in about 8 years) The lights changed and I turned right and went down Firhouse Rd.

That's it. Just to be clear where I'm coming from, here's how I see how a roundabout should be used. And I'm talking about the single lane roads that go into a 2 lane roundabout with four exits.

If I'm turning left, I position on left with left indicator on from some point further back.
If I'm going straight I position on left and indicate left as I pass first exit.
If I'm going right, I position on right with indicator on from some point further back. I indicate left as I pass second exit.

The only time I should be positioned on the right lane is to turn right unless there are signs to indicate otherwise.

Am I right?

Tony

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seamus

wideband wrote:

Seamus...you must always "Give way from your right".....if seen this so often with muppets flying up the inside trying to bet you through the exit and end up pushing you over to the wrong lane.

Yes, *from* your right, not *on* your right. Someone in a right-hand lane is *on* your right, not coming *from* your right.
By your logic, if someone collides with you while they merge into your lane from your right, you are at fault. Similarly, you must also allow oncoming traffic turning right in front of you (i.e. turning across your lane) to turn cos they have right of way.

Eh, no. Traffic travelling in the same direction must yield to any other traffic in the lane they want to enter. When you exit a one-lane roundabout, the exit lane is the left-hand lane. Anyone in the right-hand lane must yield to traffic already in the left-hand lane.

Now we may be misunderstaning eachother here, but what I get from your posts is that you believe that traffic in the right-hand lane on a roundabout always has right-of-way over traffic in the left-hand lane, when both vehicles are going straight.

(Also, I wasn't quoting you as wrong, simply pointing out that the rules of the road doesn't explicitly state whether your or causal are right or wrong)

wideband

Seamus

....we are arguing the same point

......you'd have to laugh at it as we were just going a round in circles

regards

seamus

Ah, I see where I got thrown off now.

Although, you're still wrong to say Causal is wrong, because there exists an interpretation that says he could be technically right (the second one I did). Unless someone wants to start posting legal documents

causal

wideband wrote:

Casual,
when a road approaching a roundabout breaks into two lanes Both left and right lanes can travel straight through......You say

causal wrote:

"ONLY IF there are also two exits on the second exit!!"

OMG...i hope i done meet you on the road...you are so wrong casual :eek:

Oh dear. I think you should have a look at the attached picture (if I attached it right!), from the July 2001 (17th reprint) of the rules of the road.
For the record please recall that I also qualified my statement by boting exceptions "where road markings dictate otherwise".

would you please remark my post now, tks casual

Sorry, not this time. But I will if you agree with me

causal

seamus

causal wrote:

Oh dear. I think you should have a look at the attached picture (if I attached it right!), from the July 2001 (17th reprint) of the rules of the road.

Well, you see this is why I didn't scan it and put it up. The roundabout configuration is the same in all three pictures, leaving us to the conclusion that just because there are two lanes in that picture, you can't assume that you can only go straight from the right-hand lane in those circumstances. That is, the text below the picture doesn't directly corroborate what the picture seems to tell us.

causal

Agreed.
"conditions dictate otherwise" is suitably vague.

There's also the anomoly of: is that straight thorugh; or is that second exit; - these two are often not equivalent.

Shane™

Sorry i'd just like to add to what my father was getting at, I was talking to him about this today, and he's under the impression that if you call up a day before your test and ask them to clarify the first exit, second exit, or beyond 180° rule they won't be able to clarify it, therefore they will make sure you pass!

That's what he believes, said that he called the Dept. of the enviroment and a few other places and couldn't get an answer, don't know if he's right, but it's not clear by any means. :eek:

DubTony

therecklessone to DubTony wrote:

I'm slightly confused.

You say the other car was in the outside lane, but when you entered the roundabout in the left lane he ended up beside and slightly behind you. If he was in the outside lane, he was in the left lane. How did he end up beside you? Did he change lanes to avoid you?

Was the other driver complying with road markings as he approached the roundabout, remaining in the outside lane for a legal exit on the right?

Outside lane = right lane (not left)
His was positioned beside the traffic island in the middle of the road. I pulled up at the kerb slightly ahead of him.

He was in the right lane with right indicator on. I pulled up beside him without any indicator on. I entered just before he did. I stayed to the left, he stayed to the right. I exited at exit 2 staying at the kerb. He exited at the same exit but had to brake to prevent running into the side of me.

His indicator at the entrance to the roundabout indicated he was going on to exit 3. Roundabout is a simple 4 roads (crossroads type) roundabout. We both kept in lane on the roundabout

Hope that clears things up.

Tony

therecklessone

DubTony wrote:

Hope that clears things up.

Tony

Does indeed. Initial confusion came from:

DubTony wrote:

There was a car on the "outside lane" of the roundabout with the right indicator on.

I thought he was on the roundabout when you arrived at your entrance, and I didn't realise you both entered at the same point.

You were 100% in the right.

Victor

therecklessone wrote:

No they don't. I have the Feb 2002 version of the Rules of the Road open beside me, and the only mention of going straight ahead in the right hand lane is as seamus quoted above. Check it out.

Does this actually exist or is it simply the XXth reprint of the 1993 one where Brendan Howlin does the introduction?

therecklessone

Victor wrote:

Does this actually exist or is it simply the XXth reprint of the 1993 one where Brendan Howlin does the introduction?

Sorry, its the 18th reprint of the 1993 version.

Rew

There's a roundabout in Waterford thats sign posted at "Modified Trafic Layout" and the road marking pretty clearly mark out that all trafic going left is to be in the outside land and all other trafic (straight through or right) is in the right lane. Its a stupid way to do things as it confuses the **** out of people who may not see the road markings (heavy trafic for example).

Im curious what people have to say about this:
quite commonly in when im Driving around dublin I come accross junctions with 2 lanes on one side and one on the other. Iv seen the straight lane marked as the the left, the right and both at various junctions. Amount of close calls iv seen and had at these is mental. Basicly 2 cars hitting a singel lane at the same time isn't going to work. Iv had horns blasted at me for merging in ahead of other traffic and other times people are very decent at let you in. Seems to me to an accident waiting to happen in alot of places.

causal

DubTony wrote:

His indicator at the entrance to the roundabout indicated he was going on to exit 3. Roundabout is a simple 4 roads (crossroads type) roundabout. We both kept in lane on the roundabout

For sure his indicator, and possibly lane position too, were incorrect.

The only questionmark I have is over your lane position (beside him) is because there are no road markings to suggest a second lane. Also, there is only a single triangle (signifying yield right of way) road marking - which might suggest only one vehicle should be there.
BUT...
For those who don't know the roundabout it has a very wide entrance - you'd fit two and probably three cars at the yield line. It is the ususal situation that two cars will stop at the yield line and take there respective exits.
So...

According to the road markings you could argue that there should only be one vehicle at the yield line.
According to common sense, traffic management, and common usage there should be two vehicles at the yield line.

I'm inclined to think you acted correctly Tony.
Against him at a minimum are incorrect signalling, improper use of the horn, and possibly incorrect lane position (too far right if he intended a 2nd exit). If he had hit your car then add to that failure to yield right of way; and probably careless driving.

Of course the real worry is he thought he was soooo right and you were soooo wrong that he got out of his car to remonstrate. So he'll probably keep on doing it until he learns the hard way and takes some innocent driver with him

Beware the righteous, or is there such a word as the wrongeous !!

causal

DubTony

causal wrote:

The only questionmark I have is over your lane position (beside him) is because there are no road markings to suggest a second lane. Also, there is only a single triangle (signifying yield right of way) road marking - which might suggest only one vehicle should be there.
BUT...
... It is the ususal situation that two cars will stop at the yield line and take there respective exits.
So...

According to the road markings you could argue that there should only be one vehicle at the yield line.
According to common sense, traffic management, and common usage there should be two vehicles at the yield line.

And that's one of the serious issues that keeps coming up on the forum. Bad lane marking, and bad road construction. A solicitor friend of mine told me that in a situation like I described where there is an accident that goes to court, a judge will often ask what the usual traffic flow is like on that road. A Garda would tell him that usually there are 2 lanes of traffic created and so the judge would make his decision based on that information. This really is not good enough. It's actually unfair to people who don't have a clue.

Rew mentioned a signposted roundabout in Waterford and I already pointed out the one at Spawell. If all roundabouts were signposted in this way, it would be easy to determine who was "in the wrong". Having said that, maybe there are enough signposts around the place alrady.

I do admit I was technically incorrect in creating a second lane. The roundabout itself has no road markings so is technically one lane all round. To be honest, I can't even say that if I didn't know the area I wouldn't have done the same thing. With a right indicator on and road positioning indicating a right turn was imminent, I'm sure I'd have handled it the same way.
Maybe that advanced driving course my wife's been going on about is a good idea. Every little helps.

RicardoSmith

I think even if you are in the right, proving it by having an accident is dumb. Give way to all the morons. Hopefully two of them will meet at the next roundabout.

Gary ITR

Agh jesus I'm so sick of people driving arseways around roundabouts. We need one of those infomercial things like what we had in the 80's aabout road safety

Lennoxschips

I hate those roundabouts with multiple lanes. When going 3/4 around the roundabout you have to change lanes at the second exit, and the people in the outside lane (who shouldn't be there) never let you in.

corktina

cant be bothered to read four pages but just to point out there is no such thing as "right of way". There are circumstances where you should "yield" to other cars but you have a duty to avoid a collision which means you do not have right of way over another vehicle.

in this case, if you were "slightley in front" of the guy in the other lane entering the roundabout, you should be the same coming out of it.....(the other guy was incorrect in signalling right btw.....giving the false impression that he was going on to turning 3 or 4 +

bungeecork

Alun wrote:

... swears blind that their driving instructor told them that it was allowed to indicate left entering a roundabout when you planned on taking the second exit ......

As every roundabout is different, if even slightly, could this be the one golden and unambiguous rule: always indicate when leaving a roundabout?

Would that make the instruction in the quote above incorrect?

If I got to a roundabout, yielded, looked at traffic on my right and saw a car approaching my road and indicating to the left, then to me that car is indicating that it's leaving the roundabout via my road so I can drive out in front of it.

corktina

bungeecork wrote:

As every roundabout is different, if even slightly, could this be the one golden and unambiguous rule: always indicate when leaving a roundabout?

Would that make the instruction in the quote above incorrect?

If I got to a roundabout, yielded, looked at traffic on my right and saw a car approaching my road and indicating to the left, then to me that car is indicating that it's leaving the roundabout via my road so I can drive out in front of it.

you are correct, only don't drive out in front of anyone unless you are sure it is safe to do so.....

There may now be more roundabouts per motorist in the Republic than NI. For years it was the other way round but with the spate of road building down there roundabouts seem to be cropping up all over the place - and often where previously in NI there wouldn't have been any.

Given that the RoI builds roads to UK guidelines it seems these have changed substantially since the period of major road construction up here 30/40 years ago. It seems that in the intervening period policy has altered to deliberately place more roundabouts on bypasses. Many of the older bypasses up here simply have standard T-junctions where even a busy B road leaving the bypassed town joins the new trunk/main route. Whereas the latest design down there (and I'd imagine up here if any where built) always places roundabouts at these confluence points.

It's probably due to safety as a roundabout is in effect a traffic calming device allowing traffic from the lesser road to join the main route much more safely.

GreeBo

causal wrote:

Oh dear. I think you should have a look at the attached picture (if I attached it right!), from the July 2001 (17th reprint) of the rules of the road.
For the record please recall that I also qualified my statement by boting exceptions "where road markings dictate otherwise".

Sorry, not this time. But I will if you agree with me

causal

From that scanned pic from the rules book I would say that both lanes can go straight if there are two lanes in the exit.
If not the right hand lane muxt give way until the left hand lane is clear.
But good luck expecting that to happen:(