Forget Gitmo?

But that wasn't why the U.S. & its allies invaded was it?

And no one fought WW2 to free the victims of Nazi concentration camps. People would still say the war, with its horrific atrocities that far, far outweigh anything so far in Iraq, was justified by the destruction of Nazism.

The claims of what weapons Saddam had at his disposal have been shown to be clearly wrong. It was an illegal pre-emptive strike when it wasn't required & this is why the invasion was wrong- not because Saddam was a great guy or anything.

The intervention in Kosovo was just as illegal as the Iraq war. Pre-emptive strikes are by neccessity done without warning, and based on intelligence that can be wrong and is often poked full of holes later.

I was not following politics or was aware at the time.I think Carlos the jackal and this situation are highly different.

Of course. Theres a statute iof limitations on this stuff afterall.

America is the most disgusting propaganda hyping, mis-information spewing, spin doctors around.

Well thats a balanced perspective I could spend many an hour debating with, but lets not and say we did.

To be honest Sand, if it weren't for the fact that Eichmann's execution happened about two and a half decades before I was born, I would have been opposing it. No matter what someone did, the reason some people are the good guys and some people are the bad guys is because the good guys follow the law.

Eichmann followed the law. The law said jews were subhuman and should be treated as slaves, all possible economic value wrung out of them, and then murdered with the greatest efficiency. The law is a tool to achieve good governance. It is not in itself good, so it is not the difference between "good" and "bad" guys. If the law was followed, Eichmann would have died peacefully in his bed, mocking every single victim of the Nazis. Is that a "good" outcome?

If you give up freedom, equality, liberty, your legal system, your morals, just so you can defeat the bad guys, you're not a good guy any more.

"We have become too civilized to grasp the obvious. For the truth is very simple. To survive you often have to fight, and to fight you have to dirty yourself. War is evil, and it is often the lesser evil."

I think something that people fail to grasp is that there is a war going on. Maybe panzers arent rolling through the Ardennes and bombers arent levelling Coventry, but there is actually a war going on. The first step in defeating the other side is actually finding them, which requires prisoners to be taken and interrogated. These guys are usually fanatical so an appeal to their human decency isnt all that effective, and they do their best to hide in open sight so people are going to be arrested in error. This is a risk in any intelligence based effort, even policing where innocent people have been jailed. We dont demand the end of policing in response to that. But were not dealing with guys from Cork who confess to killing 11 year old kids out of sheer guilt.

Rice has justified rendition on the proccess that the suspects are often from non-American backgrounds and that it was determined that non-Americans would be better at interrogating them, understanding the suspects culture better than someone born in Wyoming might. Thats her stated reasoning, and it makes some sense.

There has been little verified evidence of torture - certainly despite apparent reams of evidence no one has taken a court case or won afaik. If someone was delivered to be tortured by the US then why arent they suing for tens if not hundreds of millions? They would certainly find immense Democratic support looking for an angle to annialate the Republicans. Whilst I dont deny the possibility that torture is or has occured (there has been at least one death in Afghanistan by a US "merc" who was afaik investigated and punished, which would undermine the view that its somehow policy to torture) theres no convictions that show, yep, US policy. Indeed convictions in the cases like Abu Gharib were investigated by the US and punished by the US - the photos only became public halfway through the investigation. Yeah, again there seems to be controversy over what the US means by torture and what the EU means by torture, but Im a little less than willing to jump on board the hype train with the same people who brought you Gitmo: Belsen Returns!!!!

And the US has not given up anything actually - indeed its politicians and judges have continued to intervene in both Gitmo and more lately in the case of renditions and alleged CIA evil doing to ensure those values remain intact.

Sand wrote:

There has been little verified evidence of torture - certainly despite apparent reams of evidence no one has taken a court case or won afaik. If someone was delivered to be tortured by the US then why arent they suing for tens if not hundreds of millions? They would certainly find immense Democratic support looking for an angle to annialate the Republicans. Whilst I dont deny the possibility that torture is or has occured (there has been at least one death in Afghanistan by a US "merc" who was afaik investigated and punished, which would undermine the view that its somehow policy to torture) theres no convictions that show, yep, US policy. Indeed convictions in the cases like Abu Gharib were investigated by the US and punished by the US - the photos only became public halfway through the investigation. Yeah, again there seems to be controversy over what the US means by torture and what the EU means by torture, but Im a little less than willing to jump on board the hype train with the same people who brought you Gitmo: Belsen Returns!!!!

And the US has not given up anything actually - indeed its politicians and judges have continued to intervene in both Gitmo and more lately in the case of renditions and alleged CIA evil doing to ensure those values remain intact.

No proof? If it looks like a duck and acts like a duck and quacks like a duck. Chances are its a duck. They have refused to submit them selves to the International criminal court. They have refused to pass anti-torture laws.
They have denied access to these secret prisoners. It is Obvious they are torturing people.

And the Abu Gharib scandal? It is obvious that they recieved the orders from the top. The Pentagon was well aware of what was going on. They are the ones that gave the orders whether directly or indirectly.

There have been many accusations against America of torture. But who is taking the fall? Who are the scapegoats?The soldiers and mercenaries. Most were aquitted(the ones that took the blame).Many soldiers that complained were silenced and sentenced.

Not to mention all the hired mercenaries that were hired by America. Its like a mob leader orders his hitmen to torture. His hitman may be caught but never traced back to the mob leader. He always keeps his hands clean but doesn't mean he is innocent.

P.S. America's legal system is heavily coruptted, regardless of what you see.

wiseone- why don't you just join Al Q already?

No proof? If it looks like a duck and acts like a duck and quacks like a duck. Chances are its a duck.

Yeah, and if Saddam developed WMD before, used weapons of WMD before and it looks likes hes developing them again, chances are he has WMD?

P.S. America's legal system is heavily coruptted, regardless of what you see.

Yep, probably it is to some degree. Irelands legal system is corrupt as well. Practically any system is corrupt to some degree. Unless youve carried out an extensively researched paper comparing corruption on an objective level throughout the world then your claim isnt useful.

Sand wrote:

Yeah, and if Saddam developed WMD before, used weapons of WMD before and it looks likes hes developing them again, chances are he has WMD?

I see you cant refute the logic I provided. I will refute yours though.
Saddam has never developped WMD. It recieved WMD(Chemical) from places like Russia and the USA. The Iraq/Iran war was supported by the USA and so was the use of chemical weapons at the time. America backed Saddam's war since there was an Islamic revolution going on in Iran calling America the great satan. So of coarse it would be in America's best interest to silence Iran. America also gave Iraq technology to build a super gun that Israel later destroyed. Including a Nuclear power plant.

Looked like he was developing WMD again?You care to show proof? Powell stated in an address that the sanctions were working and Saddam did not have the capability to produce WMD. The CIA and MOSSAD also claimed Saddam did not have WMD. Although we know a special ops unit was made to cherry pic info and present a case for war. Lets talk about America's witnesses that Saddam had WMD. Chalabi a known crook(Defrauded Jordan of 300 million) that was exiled and defected to America. Or lets talk about the forged documents from Britain that Saddam aquired uranium from Africa?

Therefore the facts point to the fact that Iraq did not have WMD. And as we know, this proved to be true. There are NO WMD in Iraq.

Yep, probably it is to some degree. Irelands legal system is corrupt as well. Practically any system is corrupt to some degree. Unless youve carried out an extensively researched paper comparing corruption on an objective level throughout the world then your claim isnt useful.

When you understand that America has more lawyers than the whole world put together? You will see that the legal profession is big business in the USA.

I see you cant refute the logic I provided.

Yep I did. If you disagree with the logic underlying the invasion of Iraq then your "guilty cos I think they are" spiel is a tad inconsistent on the burden of guilt. Anti-Americanism can be defined as an unfavorable predisposition towards the United States, which leads individuals to interpret American actions through negative stereotypes.

When you understand that America has more lawyers than the whole world put together? You will see that the legal profession is big business in the USA.

Im almost tempted to ask for a source on that, but why do I care? If they had 283 million lawyers they might all be wonderful civic minded public defenders or they might be all 80s style corporate attack dogs whacked out on cocaine. Oh no wait, I forgot. You think theyre corrupt, therefore they are corrupt.

wiseonetwocents

Dont you know we need all those lawyers for all the criminals and drug dealers we have?

You know what i loved and thought was deliciously ironic about the footage of Condi answering questions in Europe about torture....

A black women faced with all these white overprivaleged men throwing accusations at her without any evidence. Deja vu. For christs sake Rosa Parks in barely dead a month!

Hobbes where did you come up with that? If US airports are all international land then how come you can't smoke in JFK or LaGuardia?

If the torture indeed did happen, do you think its worse or less than what Irish christian brothers have done?

Sand wrote:

Yep I did. If you disagree with the logic underlying the invasion of Iraq then your "guilty cos I think they are" spiel is a tad inconsistent on the burden of guilt. Anti-Americanism can be defined as an unfavorable predisposition towards the United States, which leads individuals to interpret American actions through negative stereotypes.

No you did not refute the Logic in regards to the fact that it is more than obvious that America is torturing prisoners. The info I supplied is common knowledge.

You cannot just post a link and think that everyone falls under that stereotype.lol. I have good reason to have a unfavourable disposition towards the United States.

Im almost tempted to ask for a source on that, but why do I care? If they had 283 million lawyers they might all be wonderful civic minded public defenders or they might be all 80s style corporate attack dogs whacked out on cocaine. Oh no wait, I forgot. You think theyre corrupt, therefore they are corrupt.

Its not only them that is corrupt. Its the whole Country. Thats why they need all the lawyers.And even with all those lawyers, crime is running rampant. Why? Because crime is big business in the state. The courts are full
of offenders.

It is in their best interest to keep the crime going. Dont you think. But we wont get into that will we?

lazydaisy wrote:

You know what i loved and thought was deliciously ironic about the footage of Condi answering questions in Europe about torture....

A black women faced with all these white overprivaleged men throwing accusations at her without any evidence. Deja vu. For christs sake Rosa Parks in barely dead a month!

Ah the voice of reason.

What the hell has skin colour got to do with anything here?

What lack of evidence? There is evidence of transport of prisoners through international airspace without authorisation. The nature of this transport, the origin and destination and ultimately the fate of these prisonors is the crux.

Rice is an elected official Its her JOB to answer these questions. Your remark is just plain stupid.

Hobbes where did you come up with that? If US airports are all international land then how come you can't smoke in JFK or LaGuardia?

I think he meant before immigration. You are in international territory up until you declare yourself to US immigration officals. Homeland Security can and have intercepted and detained people travelling to the US before the hit immigration.

From there, they are not subject to US federal law (something the federal system itself has expressed concern over). They are not obliged to offer you any rights.

An irish person of middle eastern ethnicity was held for several days in this manner without cause or explanation.

If the torture indeed did happen, do you think its worse or less than what Irish christian brothers have done?

Oh dear sweet jesus. :rolleyes: This is worse than your opening comment.

Yes it is. While the similarity of abuse of power is apparent, the level and measure of abuse of power is not even on the same level. Nor are the options open to the victims similar.

Apart from anything else. You're using child abuse by christian brothers as an argument to condone torture?

Sometimes I'm glad I was educated in Ireland.... and I went to a christian brothers school!

wiseones2cents wrote:

No you did not refute the Logic in regards to the fact that it is more than obvious that America is torturing prisoners. The info I supplied is common knowledge.

While I don't dispute the probability that America is torturing prisoners, there is a certain uneven approach to any suggestion that any accusations or sanctions be made without actually gathering hard evidence first.

I mean, its all very well to say, the US is detaining and torturing people without trial or evidence and then push forward with accusations without evidence ourselves.

The way things are moving now, the senate is slowly distancing itself from the White House. I'd be surprised if the US were still in Iraq this time next year. I don't think Bush will be ousted, but I would imagine he won't get willy nilly senate backing in future.

You cannot just post a link and think that everyone falls under that stereotype.lol. I have good reason to have a unfavourable disposition towards the United States.

Care to enlighten us here?

When you say "The United States" what exactly are you implying? The People, the Government, Both, Neither? Which?

Its not only them that is corrupt. Its the whole Country. Thats why they need all the lawyers.And even with all those lawyers, crime is running rampant. Why? Because crime is big business in the state. The courts are full
of offenders.

Lets not throw stones lest we smash our glass houses. Apart from the widespread corruption in Irish law enforcement, courts and politics (have you watched the news today on the Justice Minister), our corruption has a far more "real" feeling to us than US corruption does for most americans.

The thing people fail to realise is that this corruption has absolutely no impact on the vast majority of US citizens.
Southern and central US (or "Jesusland" as its sometimes referred to) are far less bothered by US foreign plicy than the coastal cities. Why should they care - they don't travel much or see many non-nationals bar those who go to work there?
In some places, the war has been a good thing, unemployment is down, people have opportunities for training and education they didn't have before.

By and large the Bush administration has done well by them.
As Kavanagh said "Gods make their own importance".

It is in their best interest to keep the crime going. Dont you think. But we wont get into that will we?

Well I'd imagine thats the pointof corruption anywhere.

No you did not refute the Logic in regards to the fact that it is more than obvious that America is torturing prisoners.

So wheres the convictions showing its policy....oh thats right, there are none. So its not more than obvious. Even obvious would be enough most courts, let alone more than obvious.

You cannot just post a link and think that everyone falls under that stereotype.lol. I have good reason to have a unfavourable disposition towards the United States.

Yeah, thats great - no need to delve too deeply into any troubled memories involving Americans tbh, Ill just accept that you have an unfavourable predisposition towards the U.S. which leads to you to interpret American actions through negative stereotypes, which was my point. You cant really disagree given the "Amerika iz teh Grate SaTaN!!!!" tone of your posts so far. Speaking of which...

Its not only them that is corrupt. Its the whole Country. Thats why they need all the lawyers.And even with all those lawyers, crime is running rampant. Why? Because crime is big business in the state. The courts are full
of offenders.

It is in their best interest to keep the crime going. Dont you think. But we wont get into that will we?

Yes please, if it will stop you going on about something that makes little or no sense and has little or nothing to do with the topic? I think if this thread goes on, Ill come back to your comment above to make a another point. Well see how it develops.

the_syco

bonkey wrote:

"if you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear"

Used to be one of those people, untill I noticed that they had a disliking to anyone who knew more about computer security than they do. Know an exploit? Don't tell the cops, or they may lock you up "cos why else would you know about the exploit, unless you reversed engineered, and thats illegal, huh?"

=-=

As for the spooks kidnapping the enemy, its been done since the cold war, except now they kidnap more than just the KGB (or FSB, whatever they call themselves).

Therefore the facts point to the fact that Iraq did not have WMD. And as we know, this proved to be true. There are NO WMD in Iraq.

Iraq DID have WMD. The US know this, as they gave Iraq them. The US, however, had no proof that said WMDs were destroyed.

the_syco wrote:

Iraq DID have WMD. The US know this, as they gave Iraq them. The US, however, had no proof that said WMDs were destroyed.

Link to any site that offers hard evidence of this please.

When did they have WMDs? What payload, what type, how recently?

lazydaisy wrote:

wiseonetwocents

Dont you know we need all those lawyers for all the criminals and drug dealers we have?

When you understand that the enormous multi billion dollar drug fighting beaurocracy's livelyhood depends on drugs being trafficed, the amount of profit being made by the lawyers and judges, and the CIA's hand in south American drug cartel's. You will know why there are so many drug dealers in America and with all those resources haven't been able to curb it.

Also thanks to Capitalism and poverty, many people are switching to drug dealing and prostitution. More money less hours.

You know what i loved and thought was deliciously ironic about the footage of Condi answering questions in Europe about torture...
A black women faced with all these white overprivaleged men throwing accusations at her without any evidence. Deja vu. For christs sake Rosa Parks in barely dead a month!

First of all. Comparing Condi to Rosa parks is dishonouring Rosa Parks.

No evidence? Where have you been? There is plenty evidence.Here's the newest info.

Investigator: U.S. Shipped Out Detainees
AP - 2 hours, 49 minutes ago
PARIS - A European investigator said Tuesday he has found mounting indications the United States illegally held detainees in Europe but then hurriedly shipped out the last ones to North Africa a month ago when word leaked out. Dick Marty, a Swiss senator looking into claims the CIA operated secret prisons in Europe, said an ongoing, monthlong investigation unearthed "clues" that Poland and Romania were implicated — perhaps

Now why would the CIA have secret prisons? TORTURE.

Oh Psi, what am I going to do with you? ... and they say Americans have no sense of irony.

My opening sentence was to wiseont2cents because he always talks about how many drug dealers mobsters and criminals are in america because of our nasty capitalism. Its called a joke.

My comments about condi - i was just illustrating an irony.

You're in international territory up until you declare yourself at immigration? You go through US immigration in Dublin and Shannon when coming from Ireland. Maybe if you ever left your insular little island you'd know that. You dont go through immigration in the US when you fly in from Shannon or Dublin.

WHen did I condone torture? Good lord psi. Maybe they should hire you to do the stoning and the inquisitioning.

And called me stupid, and made comments about my reasoning ability.

You are obnoxious. Just dont talk to me or respond to me again. You have no manners whatsoever.

psi wrote:

While I don't dispute the probability that America is torturing prisoners, there is a certain uneven approach to any suggestion that any accusations or sanctions be made without actually gathering hard evidence first.

I mean, its all very well to say, the US is detaining and torturing people without trial or evidence and then push forward with accusations without evidence ourselves.

The way things are moving now, the senate is slowly distancing itself from the White House. I'd be surprised if the US were still in Iraq this time next year. I don't think Bush will be ousted, but I would imagine he won't get willy nilly senate backing in future.

Actually proof is mounting, especially in Europe. Also The fact that America does not want to participate in the International criminal courts and does not want to pass anti-torture laws is a pretty good indication of its guilt.

Care to enlighten us here?

When you say "The United States" what exactly are you implying? The People, the Government, Both, Neither? Which?

I am talking about the American administration and the ones pulling its strings. I do not have anything against the American people in general although I am disappointed with the supporters of this Administration and the supporters of war.

And I also am against some of thier music and television that is corrupting youths world wide. You know. The ones that promote violence, immorality,
murder, gun play, swarming, cop killing, degrading women, disrespecting the law, opposing authority, drug use, drinking and driving, glorifying gangsterism, drug dealing,ect...should I go on? And this is supposed to be a GOD fearing nation? Could have fooled me.

Lets not throw stones lest we smash our glass houses. Apart from the widespread corruption in Irish law enforcement, courts and politics (have you watched the news today on the Justice Minister), our corruption has a far more "real" feeling to us than US corruption does for most americans.

The thing people fail to realise is that this corruption has absolutely no impact on the vast majority of US citizens.
Southern and central US (or "Jesusland" as its sometimes referred to) are far less bothered by US foreign plicy than the coastal cities. Why should they care - they don't travel much or see many non-nationals bar those who go to work there?
In some places, the war has been a good thing, unemployment is down, people have opportunities for training and education they didn't have before.

By and large the Bush administration has done well by them.
As Kavanagh said "Gods make their own importance".

We know coruption exists everywhwere but American coruption has been going International. Southern Americans are more brainwashed than brainwashed. What their ministers say goes. I went to A protestant site. I was talking to some folks. Dont know if they were Protestant, Evangelists,Methodists and born again Christians but they claim it was alright to sin because Jesus's death forgave their sins and freed them form the law.

Therefore they do not see a problem living in a country full of sin. Sort of reminds me Sodom,Gomorrah and Babylon...

They think the fact that they believe in Jesus is enough to save them. And you wonder why their country is messed up........

Plus like you said, much of thier lively hood depends on arms production.

Well I'd imagine thats the pointof corruption anywhere.

The only difference is most Christian majority nations are discreet about it. Not America.

Sand wrote:

So wheres the convictions showing its policy....oh thats right, there are none. So its not more than obvious. Even obvious would be enough most courts, let alone more than obvious.

The Convictions are coming. There are no convictions yet because the Americans are refusing to participate in International Criminal courts. And the Americans will not pass any Anti-torture laws.

I dont think Logic like:The U.S. has classified the prisoners held at Camp X-Ray as "illegal combatants" rather than prisoners of war, and claims that the protections afforded by the Geneva Conventions do not apply.

Were they not taken during war? Not even America's millions of Lawyers and corupt legal system would help them in a International court and they know it.

And the fact the CIA tried to cover up the death of an Iraqi who died during interogation. Kidnapped citizens from Italy.The fact that there is mounting evidence of secret prisons.

They evidence is there. We just have to figure how to bring to justice the people behind the world's most powerful Military without starting world war III.

Yeah, thats great - no need to delve too deeply into any troubled memories involving Americans tbh, Ill just accept that you have an unfavourable predisposition towards the U.S. which leads to you to interpret American actions through negative stereotypes, which was my point. You cant really disagree given the "Amerika iz teh Grate SaTaN!!!!" tone of your posts so far. Speaking of which...

Whether you accept it or not makes no difference to me. I am neither negative nor positive. I call it like it is. Aren't you going to post another link on explaning Anti-American behaviour?:rolleyes: No I dont see America as the great satan. It doesn't fit the qualifications. Though it fits the Qualifications of the beast in revelation.;)

please, if it will stop you going on about something that makes little or no sense and has little or nothing to do with the topic? I think if this thread goes on, Ill come back to your comment above to make a another point. Well see how it develops.

To you it makes little sense, Not to me.Your the one that stated politicians and Judges were intervening in Torture accusations and I said it means nothing. They are all corupt. If they weren't they would have hung bush a long time ago. It is clear he mislead the American people into war.

the_syco wrote:

Iraq DID have WMD. The US know this, as they gave Iraq them. The US, however, had no proof that said WMDs were destroyed.

The US DID have proof by the Information Saddam Disclosed to the weapons inspectors just before the war. And Hans Blix verified it.The Americans didn't believe him(or played stupid).

America had their mind set on invading Iraq. It was in the works even before bush took office.

the_syco wrote:

Iraq DID have WMD. The US know this, as they gave Iraq them. The US, however, had no proof that said WMDs were destroyed.

wiseonetwocents, I didnt compare Condi and Rosa Parks. And its not a dishonour anyway.

It is remarkable that Condi has broken through the glass ceiling. Even you have to admit that. Whether or not you agree with her politics.

All I'm saying seeing a black woman face a room full of interrogating over privaleged fat white men has certain resonances for Americans. But I guess you wouldnt know that, because what you actually do know about Americans is filtered through your agenda, and quite frankly sounds a little unstable.

What kind of justice are you seeking? Are there things you know about that you want to tell us? Things that will happen soon?

When you refer to Christian majority nations, who do you mean? And what are they discreet about? Their arms production or their corruption? I wasn't sure what you meant there.

Is MTV your main source of american culture? So I guess you know nothing about jazz, which was also accused of being full of sin by your sort, american literature, dance, etc etc. I guess you just watch Bruce Willis movies and listen to 50 cent. Right.

You strike me as someone who can't comprehend ambivalence. America is a bifurcated nation, it is prudish and licentious, religious and godless, all at the same time.

It was founded on crackpot religions and the right to practise them, those same religions that Europe found intolerable and still does. Nothing you say is a revelation to anyone about this.

Your just full of hellfire and damnation from what I can see.

the_syco wrote:

Iraq DID have WMD. The US know this, as they gave Iraq them. The US, however, had no proof that said WMDs were destroyed.

lazydaisy wrote:

Oh Psi, what am I going to do with you? ... and they say Americans have no sense of irony.

I dunno, mine is fine thanks.

My comments about condi - i was just illustrating an irony.

Don't see any particular irony there.

You're in international territory up until you declare yourself at immigration? You go through US immigration in Dublin and Shannon when coming from Ireland.

Nope, you pass a check with an US imm offical to make sure you're not on a list.

US immigration involves filling out temp visa or presenting your perm visa to US immigration and registering with the system...if you're a non national. This takes place at your first port of call upon entering the US.

Until this point, you're not actually officially on US immigrations system as being in the country and HS know this and exploit it.

Maybe if you ever left your insular little island you'd know that. You dont go through immigration in the US when you fly in from Shannon or Dublin.

Like most of your posts you make giant assumptions without any evidence.

Who said I am Irish or in Ireland?

Incidently you're wrong about not going through US imm. Visa waiver forms and customs declaration forms are only filled out in flight, not before you leave the airport.

WHen did I condone torture? Good lord psi. Maybe they should hire you to do the stoning and the inquisitioning.

That was me putting words in your mouth. You asked if the torture occured is it worse than CBS actions.

Whats the point of this. It could be argued you're defending (and hence condoning) US torture (if indeed it occurs). It was a rather poor commentry on the whole.

And called me stupid, and made comments about my reasoning ability.

No, I called your comment stupid and I commented on the lack of reasoning in your posts.

You are obnoxious. Just dont talk to me or respond to me again. You have no manners whatsoever.

I believe thats a personal insult.

And I shall respond to your posts as I see fit.

wiseones2cents wrote:

Actually proof is mounting, especially in Europe. Also The fact that America does not want to participate in the International criminal courts and does not want to pass anti-torture laws is a pretty good indication of its guilt.

Evidence is mounting, its not the same as proof.

It is pretty suspicious, I'll give you that, it may well be the US are opting-out of these laws because they are guilty of them.

On the other hand, it may be that their excuse is true, they may feel some of these pacts will compromise their security. I'll wait for the evidence before I go accusing anyone of anything.

I am talking about the American administration and the ones pulling its strings. I do not have anything against the American people in general although I am disappointed with the supporters of this Administration and the supporters of war.

Support is flailing and it was pretty much 50-50 to begin with.
The US administration is not america (despite what Bush would have you think) and more than Brussels is Europe.

And I also am against some of thier music and television that is corrupting youths world wide. You know. The ones that promote violence, immorality,
murder, gun play, swarming, cop killing, degrading women, disrespecting the law, opposing authority, drug use, drinking and driving, glorifying gangsterism, drug dealing,ect...should I go on? And this is supposed to be a GOD fearing nation? Could have fooled me.

Well wait a second. Thats business, its a very different thing. While I disagree with some of it I'd point out that IReland among other nations fuels the industry by popularising it. Just because something immoral is produced in the US does not make it a solely US issue. Ireland an dthe Irish people are just as much to blame.

We know coruption exists everywhwere but American coruption has been going International.

Thats a fair enough point, but its up to others to oppose it. The UK in particular panders far to readily to the US policies.

The only difference is most Christian majority nations are discreet about it. Not America.

Its pretty much off the point of the argument.

lazydaisy wrote:

It is remarkable that Condi has broken through the glass ceiling. Even you have to admit that. Whether or not you agree with her politics.

Means nothing. Condi is also in the oil business.

All I'm saying seeing a black woman face a room full of interrogating over privaleged fat white men has certain resonances for Americans. But I guess you wouldnt know that, because what you actually do know about Americans is filtered through your agenda, and quite frankly sounds a little unstable.

One again. means nothing. I know more about America than most Americans. I watch the news,follow their politics, TV and listen to the music and much more. Unstable? Far from it. Disgusted with certain aspects of American culture and war in Iraq? Definately.

When you refer to Christian majority nations, who do you mean? And what are they discreet about? Their arms production or their corruption? I wasn't sure what you meant there.

There are many. Though none are more anti-Christian than America. They are only a Christian nation in their own minds for the most part. They are corupt to the core and dont even realize it.

Is MTV your main source of american culture? So I guess you know nothing about jazz, which was also accused of being full of sin by your sort, american literature, dance, etc etc. I guess you just watch Bruce Willis movies and listen to 50 cent. Right.

I believe America made alot of great music back then. It is the music today I have a problem with. 50 cent is a bad role model for children. Bruce WIllis as far as I know hasn't made any unappropriate movies.

You strike me as someone who can't comprehend ambivalence. America is a bifurcated nation, it is prudish and licentious, religious and godless, all at the same time.

America is more bad than good and the badness is growing. Not the goodness.
Because they are corupting society at its base. The children.

It was founded on crackpot religions and the right to practise them, those same religions that Europe found intolerable and still does. Nothing you say is a revelation to anyone about this.

Maybe that is the problem. That is how Solomon's kingdom went down hill.

Your just full of hellfire and damnation from what I can see.

Fire does not only come from hell you know.;)

The forms you fill out in flight are for customs. Have you ever been through customs in JFK? If you have you know its a joke. Irish sausages are about the only thing they ever cared about and that was briefly, during foot and mouth.

US immigration does take place in Shannon or Dublin. Ask anyone who travels back and forth, they can verify this. You only need a temp visa or perm visa if you are staying over a certain amount of time, which I think is 90 days. Now, explain this please. When I dismebark in JFK off an Irish flight, all of the travellers go straight through to baggage claim and then follow through to customs, which we all pass through no hassle. I am back and forth alot and this is a consisitent procedure. It was the same diembarking at Newark when Aer Lingus used to land there.

I dont know that you are in Ireland or even Irish. But you did say you were educated there. There are also certain language patterns which would indicate to me that this is true. And prejudices, but we wont go into that.

Please dont put anything in my mouth.

You dont see the irony... am I suprised?

wiseone,

How many Americans do you know? Who are most Americans?

What other Christian majority nations do you mean?

America made a lot of goood music back when? Jazz is a contemporary genre, is still being made.

Do you like art? Do you read? Do you see theatre and dance? Do you like music? If you did then you would know the US produces more than pedephiliac videos of Brittany Spears. Im surprised that you like Bruce Willis movies, they tend to be full of the violence that you despise.

How can culture or art be moral or immoral? Its art. You sound like those bible belters who ban dancing in the local parish.

You keep talking in absolutist moral terms, like "more bad than good." This is doesnt really say much. WHat you think is bad, I may think is good and vice versa.

I have the feeling that you live with the David and Goliath archetype. Is this true?

Hobbes

lazydaisy wrote:

The forms you fill out in flight are for customs. Have you ever been through customs in JFK?

You are correct. However up until the point where you pass by immigration in the US you are considered to be in International Territory. There are reported instances of the US denying rights and detaining people who have landed in the US but not entered US soil as such. Some of these people were not even flying to the US but passing through.

What happens in Dublin is just paperwork and to keep people out who would cause a problem by the time they got there. Which is a throwback when every paddy was trying to get into the US. A lot of the immigration stuff is done at the embassy anyway.

Irish sausages are about the only thing they ever cared about and that was briefly, during foot and mouth.

Your not allowed import any foodstuffs. They have special sniffer dogs for such an instance.

Ask anyone who travels back and forth, they can verify this.

I've flown over 10 times to the US and close to 20 or so times while in the US. Do I count?

[Deleted User]

lazydaisy wrote:

You are obnoxious. Just dont talk to me or respond to me again. You have no manners whatsoever.

Take a week off for that.
The rule is in the charter-attack the post and not the poster.

lazydaisy wrote:

The forms you fill out in flight are for customs. Have you ever been through customs in JFK? If you have you know its a joke. Irish sausages are about the only thing they ever cared about and that was briefly, during foot and mouth.

You get two forms. A green Visa Waiver form (for an EU citizen) and a white customs declaration form.

You get them off the cabin crew and they are both filled-in in-flight.

US immigration does take place in Shannon or Dublin. Ask anyone who travels back and forth, they can verify this.

Again, I said there is a US Imm check, its not the same process as US immigration declaration in the US port of entry.

You only need a temp visa or perm visa if you are staying over a certain amount of time, which I think is 90 days. Now, explain this please.

EU (and the rich non-EU european states) have an agreement with US immigration to allow this. In order to comply, anyone staying on a recreation or non-earning visit to the US, fills in a Green Visa Waiver form. These are, as I said above, available in-flight and are presented at US immigration on disembarkment.

Up until that point, you are in no-mans land.

When I dismebark in JFK off an Irish flight, all of the travellers go straight through to baggage claim and then follow through to customs, which we all pass through no hassle.

You're with people who have US citizenship so.

I am back and forth alot and this is a consisitent procedure. It was the same diembarking at Newark when Aer Lingus used to land there.

Me too. What does that prove?

Lets ask the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey what the procedure is. You know, just in case I don't want to rely totally on your word.

Port Authority of New York and New Jersey wrote:

Immigration Procedures

Flight attendants will distribute an Immigration Arrival/Departure record form.
Every non-U.S. citizen except permanent residents in possession of a green card or Canadian citizens, must complete an Immigration form.
Visitors with visas fill out the white Immigration forms.
Visitors without visas fill out green visa-waiver forms.

Ahh but what do we do with these forms?

Lets ask the United States Government Visa office:

United States Government Visa office wrote:

Persons traveling without a visa on the Visa Waiver Program, will be enrolled in the U.S. Visitor and Immigrant Status Indicator Technology (US-VISIT) program at all airports and seaports, upon arrival in the U.S.

When you deplane, follow signs for non-citizen entry. At that location, a Department of Homeland Security official will interview you and verify all of your paperwork. See requirements for Entry into the U.S. Under the US-VISIT Program of the Department of Homeland Security, for most persons arriving in the U.S., there will be a fingerscan of the two index fingers and a photo will be taken. Once admitted, you will receive an immigration stamp and proceed to baggage claim and customs

"wander through with no hassle" eh? pfft!

I dont know that you are in Ireland or even Irish. But you did say you were educated there. There are also certain language patterns which would indicate to me that this is true. And prejudices, but we wont go into that.

Again, it shows what your assumptions get you. I'm American.

You dont see the irony... am I suprised?

Maybe, I'd also guess that you're using the Alanis Morisette definition of irony.