Hobbes wrote: canadian guy who was detained in the US (only flying through the country to get to another), sent to another country to be tourtured and after months was released without charge. His crime? Asking a stranger to co-sign a lease who was in the same place as him when getting an apartment.
Hobbes wrote: Although the US government have denied it
bonkey wrote: Careful now. All these nasty comments about bacon will have people calling you anti-Semitic
Harsh times call for harsh measures. We must fight these terrorists home and abroad, and sometimes, some of us must sacrifice our principles in true pragmatism so that the majority may safely follow theirs. America is a light in the darkness, a symbol of freedom, democracy and equality, and you damned europeans should just be thankful that we are around or you would all be speaking german right now.
Memnoch wrote: America is a light in the darkness, a symbol of freedom, democracy and equality, and you damned europeans should just be thankful that we are around or you would all be speaking german right now.
Sand wrote: Thats crazy talk. Theres no such thing as Al-Queda. We must strive to home and abroad, to find these non-existent terrorists so we can surrender to them and try to adapt to how our moral masters dictate - grow beards, force women back into the kitchen, preferably wearing a sheet. This "alleged" desire to carry out massive attacks on our cities is clearly a lie spread by the nefarious neo-cons, these brave young freedom fighters - if they exist at all - wish only to liberate themselves from our cruel and evil depradations such as McDonalds! Because at the end of the day, its Americas fault. America is clearly the worst country in the whole world. Americans are basically to blame for everything. Polution? America. Famine? America. Poverty? America. Tsuanamis? America. China/India buying up all the oil? America. U.N. being useless? America. Israel not wiped off the map yet? America. Chechnya? America. Tieniemen Square? America. USSR not winning the Cold War? America. Didnt get a parking spot this morning? America. They should just be grateful they have us Europeans here to remind them what a mess of things theyre making. Seriously though, Gitmo is enough. Given its apparently a medieval torture dungeon complete with ogre last I heard - I also heard disturbing rumours about detainees being taught to read and stuff like that, but I assume thats hysterical sensationalism - what are they doing in these black sites thats worse than the hellhole Gitmo apparently is?
Thing is though, America are supposed to be the good guys. And the good guys don't get to play with the nasty spiky torture things and the like - that's only for the bad guys. If you claim to uphold freedom, you can't take someone and stick them in a camp for four years without charge, or hide them in Poland. You've gotta play by the rules. Even if it means you're handicapping yourself. That's how the good guys play.
Sand wrote: Well in the case where nasty spiky torture things were used, Abu Gharib, the soldiers involved were charged and convicted and the officer who was supposed to be running the show was demoted. And in the case of Gitmo, that hell on earth where detainees are supposed to be having their toenails ripped out - actually they do things like teach people how to read and do their prayer calls and so on and so forth. So you see, I do feel that A) The Abu Gharib fallout demonstrated to any soldier or whoever else that if prisoners are mistreated they will be prosecuted, and to officers that they will be held responsible for any mistreatment in their facilities and The reports on Gitmo painting it as some sort of death camp were a little over the top, hence these reports of secret CIA camps (the CIA has secret facilities, whod have thunk it, next youll be telling me they have people working for them that dont say they work for the CIA) are only the next subject of hysterical sensationalism. The worst Ive heard coming out of Gitmo is that when the most non-compliant are interogated that theyre insulted, belittled, humiliated and put under tremendous emotional strain. That is standard run of the mill techniques for interrogating fanatics who dont want to tell you what they know. Its not a pleasant experience for the person undergoing it but its not meant to be. And its a far cry from spiky torture instruments you describe.
Sand wrote: Look at that case of the British soldiers which collapsed recently, they were accused of going into a town, beating a teenager to death, attacking a woman and various other crimes. This would have been hyped up as showing the evil crimes of the coalition forces - except when it came to trial there was no body, no grave, no proof showing any of the accused soldiers were even in the town, and several of the witnessess admitted they had lied about what they had seen so as to claim appearance fees in the court, and eventually claim blood money from the UK. The judge directed that given the above there was no way any of the men could be convicted. So theres a lot of claims about misdemeanors on the part of the "good" guys, that usually doesnt hold up to the light of day. It is however a mark that they are the good guys that such claims are investigated and punished as appropriate. So again, I get a little cautious about believing every detention facility is an orwellian nightmare, every coalition soldier is a redneck Texan who spends his patrols shooting up civillians for ****s and giggles, and so on and so forth.
Sand wrote: Also, on your point about upholding freedom and locking people up for 4 years - actually the US can lock up people for as long as they want, technically until they die of old age without charge. If Al Queda is fighting a war against the US, which they claim, then any of their "soldiers" taken prisoner do not have to be released until the end of hostilities, which will never happen as Al Queda and Co will never sign a peace deal with the US. All perfectly above board too.
Wicknight wrote: Hobbes do you have a link to that post (search isn't working for me for some reason)
Sand wrote: actually they do things like teach people how to read and do their prayer calls and so on and so forth.
The reports on Gitmo painting it as some sort of death camp were a little over the top,
hence these reports of secret CIA camps (the CIA has secret facilities, whod have thunk it, next youll be telling me they have people working for them that dont say they work for the CIA) are only the next subject of hysterical sensationalism.
The worst Ive heard coming out of Gitmo is that when the most non-compliant are interogated that theyre insulted, belittled, humiliated and put under tremendous emotional strain.
Also, on your point about upholding freedom and locking people up for 4 years - actually the US can lock up people for as long as they want, technically until they die of old age without charge. If Al Queda is fighting a war against the US, which they claim, then any of their "soldiers" taken prisoner do not have to be released until the end of hostilities, which will never happen as Al Queda and Co will never sign a peace deal with the US. All perfectly above board too.
As far as I know, no sharp pointy torture implements were actually used in Abu Ghraib, just humiliation and abuse. Similar to what is used in Gunatanamo, I believe - emotional torture is still torture.
Doesn't mean they didn't do it... But yes, I mainly agree here. I just want to point out that the boy they were accused of killing WAS actually killed - just not necessarily by them.
But then, certain rules which the US are not applying would apply - the rules concerning the treatment of prisoners of war.
If it is such a wonderful place why then are a large number of the immates on hunger strike then?
And which inmates are they teaching to read? Those children they have detained? You know, the ones that aren't actually charged with anything, just happen to be related to some of the prisoners.
Your right in those regards. However 2-3 years ago the US did mention they were building gas chamber to execute those they find seriously guilty (or whatever term). Considering the trials are far from fair, what name would you call the place? Happy funcamp?
Exporting of tourture has been going on for years and has been reported by the Press worldwide for a number of years in relation to Gitmo. The previous link I just gave gives 1 incident. Hard to believe you can be detained without rights by the US in an US airport (more then one incident with this), but it happens.
From how I read it you have no problem with people being detained in cages without rights and reasonable tourture without being charged of any crime.
AQ and co... AQ are independant of the and co, and lumping the two together just helps to futher abuse peoples rights in the name of fighting terror.
Memnoch wrote: Harsh times call for harsh measures. We must fight these terrorists home and abroad, and sometimes, some of us must sacrifice our principles in true pragmatism so that the majority may safely follow theirs. America is a light in the darkness, a symbol of freedom, democracy and equality, and you damned europeans should just be thankful that we are around or you would all be speaking german right now.
Sand wrote: Maybe they have a really strong belief in their cause? Wouldnt be the first time terrorists went on hunger strike.
A detention facility, a lot of US prisons have nearby means of execution. Theyre still usually called prisons as opposed to death camps.
Well with all that evidence it should be easy to get a conviction then shouldnt it?
It smashed the IRA in the Free State/Republic and helped protect our democracy.
Do you have a shorthand version of the above
Sand wrote: Well with all that evidence it should be easy to get a conviction then shouldnt it?
lili wrote: do those people in gitmo have laywers for defend their rights?
Hobbes wrote: Its been common knowledge that CIA were exporting people to Uzbek to be torture some time back. What has changed now?
America is a light in the darkness, a symbol of freedom, democracy and equality, and you damned europeans should just be thankful that we are around or you would all be speaking german right now.
Capt'n Midnight wrote: http://robinrowland.com/garret/2005/11/waterboarding-is-war-crime.html this Blog describes "Waterboarding" which the US have admited to using. Of course the Waterboarding the US uses is the good kind that coerces terrorists into revealing only genuine info that prevents attacks. The other kind of Waterboarding, while technically exactly the same, is bad. The Japanese used it in WWII on innocent civilians who had taken no parth in an attack (by special forces) yet the civilians confessed. These false confessions don't happen with the good kind. Also the bad kind of Waterboarding is a capital offense, the Japanese involved were executed for war crimes. This also doesn't happen with the totally different good kind of Waterboarding even though it's technically the same as the bad kind.
You make it seem like America saved the world single handedly.America sat back in both world wars for a few years and watched, thanks to its geographical position. Russia and Britain did most of the work against Germany.
Any reason you don't apply this reasoning to what the US is doing to its suspects, but do apply it to the critics of said policy?
As for the torture, of course it's still going on. It'll go on as long as people are willing to give up their freedoms in return for "safety" from something that is both highly unlikely to happen to them, and almost impossible to prevent. Not worth it, in my opinion. I'd rather take the risk than give up protection from torture and the shelter of the law.
Also the CIA transported prisoners to places that practice PHYSICAL Torture. Which is Clearly Illegal and a Barbaric and Criminal Act.
Countries have renditioned people many times before. I doubt you were out with placards denouncing the capture of Nazi war crinimals by Mossad in South America - or who knows, maybe you were. As Rice pointed out, the taking of Carlos the Jackal to France was challenged in court and the challenge was defeated.
As for these places that practised torture, have you been listening to the testimony in Saddams trial? Apparently human beings were fed into mincing machines in his jails. Woops, instead of human beings, I meant nobody. Because as we all know Saddam was a threat to nobody.
