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Should Irish be optional after Junior Cert?

muesli_offire

Just heard Enda Kenny's remark that Irish should be an optional Leaving cert subject. Seems to make a lot of sense, as continental languages are more important. Any opinions? Also, why do leaving cert subjects like French, which is spoken by many millions of people all over the world, lack a literary bias while Irish does not?

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segadreamcast

SECTION: Ireland; Other Stories; Pg. 6

LENGTH: 276 words

HEADLINE: 62% believe Irish should not be compulsory

BYLINE: Mark Brennock, Chief Political Correspondent

BODY:
Almost two-thirds of voters believe Irish should no longer be a compulsory subject for the Leaving Certificate examination, according to a TNS mrbi survey conducted for Fine Gael.

Some 62 per cent believe it should become a subject of choice after the Junior Certificate, 34 per cent that it should remain compulsory and 4 per cent have no opinion. The proportion favouring the retention of compulsory status is highest among the 18 to 24 age group (52 per cent), followed by the 25 to 34 group (37 per cent). It falls to 30 per cent among those aged 35 to 54, 25 per cent in the 55 to 64 age group and 30 per cent among the over 65s.

The poll also shows more men than women favour the ending of compulsory status. Among men, 68 per cent believe it should be a subject of choice, 28 per cent that it should remain compulsory and 4 per cent have no opinion. Among women, 57 per cent believe it should be a subject of choice, 40 per cent that it should remain compulsory and 3 per cent have no opinion.

The telephone poll was conducted between November 15th and 24th, among 962 interviewees. It was taken immediately after Fine Gael proposed in a policy document that compulsory Irish be dropped from the Leaving Cert.

Responding to the poll, Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny said it "confirms my instincts in relation to public attitudes to the teaching and presentation of the Irish language in our schools". He called for a national audit to assess the level of usage of Irish, public attitudes to the language, and the potential for the language to develop.

He said Fine Gael would organise a conference next March to examine these issues.

LOAD-DATE: December 1, 2005

Now that's more like it. Albeit, by my own admission it's from an equally untrustable source with an equally vested interest. We need an objective survey - come on Independent/Times, do it!

SeanW

Seems I'm not the only one who thinks IndaKenny's been talking a lot of sense recently.

Polls find increase in FG support

04 December 2005 08:10
Fine Gael is continuing to gain support according to two opinion polls carried out for Sunday newspapers today.

One survey, conducted for the Sunday Tribune, finds support for Fianna Fáil has dropped by 4%.

The other, in the Sunday Business Post, shows a modest increase in those backing the party.

Advertisement

The Business-Post poll also says that Fianna Fáil leader Bertie Ahern is the most popular party leader with a 51% satisfaction rating.

There is little or no change in support for other parties.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1204/politics.html

So much for all the people who think FG are crazy traitors for wanting to dump Compulsory Gaeilge.

Grudaire

Well NoelRock thank you for some useful information. I can safely say that we will never know the wish of the mass's.

SeanW I do believe that it is your own fault that you where ignorant to the knowladge. perhaps trying reading yourself would help. Having read into many different topics on this boring irish history that you talk about it does get quite complicated. not just save our queen and tiocfaidh ar lá. However it is amazing that while you found the american system better while the irish system is rated higher, perhaps the system is not for all. I do find it scary that the system that you so praise is introducing creationism to the science classes. fiction is not fact i'm sure you agree.

Perhaps these poems are more then about learning, do you not find the insight facinating. everyone hated everyone. Everyone dies, and it's miserable. perhaps you don't care about your ancesters, but i do. and please clarify what the hell that second quote you have there means

ishmael whale

Cliste wrote:

perhaps you don't care about your ancesters, but i do.

I think the point is what justifies compulsory Irish. If you are interested in Irish, fine. If its an important part of your life, grand. But why should it be imposed on people who don't particularly value it?

GaryOR

I think the point has being lost actually, Enda announced that this policy/idea/proposal was supposed to improve Irish amoung the Irish in Ireland, and now the whole thing is just polarized into pro-Irish and anti-Irish.
Making Irish optional would probably be a good idea at a later stage, after teaching reforms are put in place and understanding and appreciation are improved.
Making Irish optional at this stage is like looking at the "problem" from the wrong end!!
From what I can see those who want to make Irish optional, want to, not out of wanting to progress Irish but in a sense get the boot in for all those "wasted hours" spent on it.
As Irish stands now making it optional would be a no brainer as they say and no body in their right mind would take it, and thats down to the way in which its taught not the language itself.
If Enda actually had layed out a comprehensive plan for its improvement (including it eventually becoming optional, after Junior Cert) over X ammount of years, instead of repeating old FG policy about its status, I think he might have swayed a few positive votes, and not just the "Myers brigade" which he has by the bucket load now.....

SeanW

In the US, the education system is run and funded by city authorities. That leaves a lot of room for variance. Where I was it was very good. It's like that, some places very bad some places very good. I just got lucky and I accept that. BTW I was never taught creationism, and that largely only happens in relatively small areas of the South mainly.

BTW they don't teach religion in US public schools. Anywhere. They do here though.

My second post clarifies that there are NOT

Justcoz wrote:

too many people who will fight for the cause. Myself included.

If there were, FG would not be gaining support. Perhaps the rise is in suport is down to other issues but if the Irish langauge and compulsory language had such a revered place in society, Enda Kenny's remarks would have been a major impediment. That it has not, in my view, speaks volumes.

perhaps you don't care about your ancesters, but i do.

>_< So we're back to the historical arguments again? So Irish was our language a few hundred years ago. Big fat hairy deal.

Most European languages descend from languages such as Latin and - further back - Sanskrit.
So why don't the French, Spanish, Swiss, have compulsory Sanskrit classes? Do they not care about their ancestors? Where are all the plastic patriots bemoaning the death of Latin?

If you're content that vauge references to 'our ancestors way way back' is adequate justification for the continuation of this, I have to dismiss that out of hand. I'd prefer the education system was modern, student focused (rather than "our ancestors were Irish-speaking devout Catholics") and built around the needs of young people in modern society than the menu of historical fantasies present today. We can look to the future, or live in the past. And if that future includes students choosing to learn Irish (which some would), so be it.

GaryOR wrote:

If Enda actually had layed out a comprehensive plan for its improvement

I have nothing whatsoever against keeping Irish language around in schools and improving the way it's taught. But that doesn't change the fact that there will be young people who'd rather learn a technology or do science experiments, drivers ed etc than Gaeilge.

ishmael whale

GaryOR wrote:

I think the point has being lost actually, Enda announced that this policy/idea/proposal was supposed to improve Irish amoung the Irish in Ireland, and now the whole thing is just polarized into pro-Irish and anti-Irish.

I don’t think you are correct to equate the position of supporters of compulsory Irish with people who support change. The Irish language teaching establishment has had generations to perfect its approach. However, compulsory Irish has insulated them from the need to engage with English speakers. If they manage to see off this threat, they go back to business as usual.

GaryOR wrote:

If Enda actually had layed out a comprehensive plan for its improvement (including it eventually becoming optional, after Junior Cert) over X ammount of years, instead of repeating old FG policy about its status, I think he might have swayed a few positive votes, and not just the "Myers brigade" which he has by the bucket load now.....

Agreed. Once the principle is conceded, there needs to be a proper phasing in. For example, if you are half way through your Leaving Cert course it would be plain disorientating to have the goalposts changed. But the objective of ending compulsion needs to be established.

GaryOR

"But the objective of ending compulsion needs to be established."

You talk about the compulsory side of it as the be all and end all, which it isn't, surely you would agree its introduction would only work after the results over many years taken from students from say baby infants through too leaving cert proved the "new teaching methods" actually provided them with fluency by the end of junior Cert (which it should).

Peanut

GaryOR wrote:

"But the objective of ending compulsion needs to be established."

You talk about the compulsory side of it as the be all and end all, which it isn't, surely you would agree its introduction would only work after the results over many years taken from students from say baby infants through too leaving cert proved the "new teaching methods" actually provided them with fluency by the end of junior Cert (which it should).

Should it?
Why should they be compelled to be fluent in it?
I have not seen even a single good reason to do this, and many reasons not to.
This is side-stepping the issue.

GaryOR

Peanut wrote:

Should it?
Why should they be compelled to be fluent in it?
I have not seen even a single good reason to do this, and many reasons not to.
This is side-stepping the issue.

Its the national language of this country, whatever your view on Irish, do you not think it would be ignorant of its people and its goverment to ignore its language. (By the way fluency in Irish isn't some sort of protest against English or those who hate Irish)
Fluency isn't some sort of magic place that cannot be reached its within all are reach, and as Irish men and women its are responsiility as a nation and a people to not just preserve but to promote that what makes us who we are.

i haven't seen any reasons against any potential personal benifits of fluency myself, i'm sure there are plenty, myself personally can't see anything negative with beng fluent in Irish.

I could be wrong but a "hate" of anything gives you a sort a tunnel view on the thing that you hate ,so the same goes for Irish, so any points made about its benfits as something to be proud of as a nation sadly falls on angry deaf ears

Peanut

I had thought of adding "If your argument is that it's the national language, then don't bother".

This has been gone through a million times already, but just to re-address your points :

- non-compulsory status does not mean ignoring the language.

- I don't believe it's our responsibility as a nation to ensure all are fluent Irish speakers. In fact, it's an absurd proposition.

- Speaking Irish does not make us what we are. I would like to see parts of our culture preserved, but not at the cost of my own personal development, thank you very much. Sorry if that seems selfish, but my primary responsibility is to myself, and not to a minority's nationalistic fetishes.

- There is nothing negative about being fluent in Irish. That's not the point being discussed.

- "..but a 'hate' of anything gives you a sort a tunnel view.." - this is true, next question, why do you think there are such widespread feelings? And they are widespread. Hint: It's not just because of the way it's taught.

ishmael whale

Can I first, in all honesty, say a word of thanks to Simu and the Moderators for allowing this thread to go on for so long. In fairness, the Gaeilge board is surely a place for people to share an interest in the language, rather than hold forth in English on what’s wrong with compulsory Irish.

I think Peanut is handling the points, so I won’t repeat. Just one little thought comes to mind.

GaryOR wrote:

You talk about the compulsory side of it as the be all and end all

Indeed, because it’s a relic of a mindset that gave a higher priority to language revival than it did to education. In the end it failed miserably, and you’d be better off without it. It seems to have some kind of iconic value to Irish language activists which I don’t understand. Remember, from my perspective you are the one who see the compulsory aspect as the be all and end all.

The Irish language teaching establishment simply has not got a proud legacy. If you want to understand why compulsion is anathema to so many, try Tom Garvin’s ‘Preventing the Future’ to get a perspective on where the view you are defending originated.

I don’t doubt that Irish, like any language, can be taught in a way that benefits students. But if you want to undo the harm done by your predecessors you have to do what they have never done – listen to what English speakers are saying. Remove the compulsion, because that makes the language a pure chore and allows teaching standards to be poor as there’s a captive audience. And teach the language in English medium schools as if it was a foreign language. Even now, Irish textbooks in English medium schools have their instruction written in Irish with the result that many parents have no idea what the object of the book is.

nesf

I completely agree with people that the present system of teaching Irish is what is the main problem. However, people seem to think that you can change such a system overnight. You can't. If Irish is kept as compulsory, then many students who are presently in the education system will suffer from the same issues as they would have 5 years ago. Change in the education system will show results in 10-15 years time. Let's face it, changes at primary level (where it needs to start) will take a long time to mature.

Irish should not be compulsory for the Leaving and there is no good reason why in the present climate of the "points race" that one should be forced to take a subject that you are terribly under-prepared for. I had to take an eight subject to allow me to not be effected by Irish and German. Languages were never my strong point (other than English I was a HC student in these) and frankly I was not happy with a subject that I wasn't at least averaging an B1/A2 in. The points orientated nature of the leaving encouraged this. I came out of secondary with a grudge against Irish since it was the only subject I had to take at Leaving level that I thought I'd never have a use for. It turned out that I do have a use for it but it's rare for this to happen tbh.

Change the leaving cert course and things will improve. Focus on language only until Junior (especially oral and aural) and things will definitely improve. But keeping it compulsory is pointless. If a student has a good command of the language after the Junior they will keep it on. It's easy points then. But if they don't have any command of the language, then keeping it compulsory will mean that they are just suffering and having their options limited.

Grudaire

"A people without a language of its own is only half a nation. a nation should guard its language more then it's territorys, 'tis a surer barrier and a more important frontier than mountain or river"
Thomas Davis

SeanW

I'm sure the Americans - and the Swiss in particular would care to disagree that they are only "half a nation" ditto for the Austria, Australia etc.

GaryOR

"I have not seen even a single good reason to do this, and many reasons not to."

Nut (Can I call you that), this is why I said I can't see anything negative about being fluent with Irish, a reason against being fluent is negative.

"non-compulsory status does not mean ignoring the language"

At this stage without any changes to the methods of teaching it does exactly mean that. It claims to slove any problem with the teaching of the language, as I said already the methods needs to change before we talk about making it non-compulsory

"why do you think there are such widespread feelings? And they are widespread. Hint: It's not just because of the way it's taught"

We all suffered because of boring irish classes, but its just immature to carry a hate for the language because of some "ball breaker" teacher or boring poem or book.

"Irish textbooks in English medium schools have their instruction written in Irish with the result that many parents have no idea what the object of the book is."

Whale (Can I call you that), Totally agree..

"minority's nationalistic fetishes" (national; my god what a dirty word)

anyway I wouldn't say I have "nationalistic fetishes" but I do believe that Irish is important if we are to be a seperate post-colonial people/nation and as a lanuage is the foundation of any genuine culture
but I'm not the person and this is not the place to try and convience others otherwise..

I think Neasa Ní Chinnéide has put it well here:

"What will stand out about us as a unique culture with its own special inspiration and characteristics? I am reminded of a conversation that I had a number of years ago in Tokyo. I was speaking about Ireland to a Japanese neighbour. 'But you hardly have a distinctive culture' she observed. I spoke of our literature - Yeats, Joyce, music and so on. She listened for a while. Then she said, 'Yes. But do you have a language?'"

Peanut

GaryOR wrote:

Nut (Can I call you that)

Sure you can

GaryOR wrote:

..this is why I said I can't see anything negative about being fluent with Irish, a reason against being fluent is negative.

Sorry I don't quite follow you here. I think you're side-stepping the issue again, the question is not Irish fluency and the merits or not of it, but whether it should be a forced "education".

GaryOR wrote:

"non-compulsory status does not mean ignoring the language"
At this stage without any changes to the methods of teaching it does exactly mean that. It claims to slove any problem with the teaching of the language, as I said already the methods needs to change before we talk about making it non-compulsory

Yes I agree the methods need to change. However I also strongly consider that the conscription into forced learning is a very bad idea, maybe not so much at primary, but definitely at post-primary level.

GaryOR wrote:

We all suffered because of boring irish classes, but its just immature to carry a hate for the language because of some "ball breaker" teacher or boring poem or book.

This is a specious argument. You are shying away from the point again.

The foremost issue is not with the teacher, or the coursework, although, like you say, there is much room for improvement here. It shouldn't bear repeating, but the fact that the only compulsory course for the Leaving Cert is also the most unused, unpractical and forced for blatant political short-sightedness is a glaring anomaly in the current education system.

Why would I not feel slighted by a system that screwed me around as a child? I don't suppose you understand how it feels to be powerless and struggling with something that you know is not one of your strengths, yet is required of you by the current system in order to progress further, yet has zero relevance towards the goal that you are working towards. It is completely nonsensical.

I have nothing against learning Irish, but please, give me a choice in the matter.
Split it up into separate modules, so those with a greater interest can choose all of them.

GaryOR wrote:

"minority's nationalistic fetishes" (national; my god what a dirty word)

Nothing wrong with national, that's why I added the more salacious term.

GaryOR wrote:

anyway I wouldn't say I have "nationalistic fetishes" but I do believe that Irish is important if we are to be a seperate post-colonial people/nation and as a lanuage is the foundation of any genuine culture
but I'm not the person and this is not the place to try and convience others otherwise..

Are you still fretting over colonialism? Do you long for a return to the days before there were English stores on the streets of our country?
I believe national identity transcends language, if you think it's weaker than that well that's your opinion I guess.

Your quote from Neasa Ní Chinnéide illustrates well the diverse nature of identity, the neighbour mistakenly ignoring music and (English) literature as parts of "Irishness" (whatever that is..).

tweety111

i dont agree at all that irish should be optional... we have spent millions of euro tryin to make awareness of our culture and language e.g tnag, conradh na geal, radio na gael, ect.. then we take about 10 steps backwards in sayin it should be optional irish is our countrys national language and beside been only spoken by 5% of the countries people we would be so much worse off if dont do it for the leaving.. its those 2yrs you begin to love the language and expree your point of view through irish. do we want to give d english d satifaction of gettin rid of irish completely..? what dont we have english optional instead.. with learning irish we learn d traditions and culture... Tir gan teanga tir gan ainm..

SeanW

Colonialism? Jeepers man that's ancient history by now. Do you actually remeber from your own experience the time when the Brits occupied us? I honestly doubt they give a toss what we do with Gaeilge.

do we want to give d english d satifaction of gettin rid of irish completely..?

This statement shows that you're a xenophobic racist. We haven't fought for Independence since the early 20th century but I suppose the insurrection still lives on in some of our hearts.

we have spent millions of euro tryin to make awareness of our culture and language e.g tnag, conradh na geal, radio na gael, ect

You mean we wasted millions of euro and very valuable terrestrial bandwidth on a pointless job-creation mechanism that survives only by hiring borderline pornstars, showing old spaghetti-Westerns, leeching popular stuff from other networks, and swallowing god knows how much annual subsidy. TNaG is joke. I can't comment on RNaG because I've never heard it.

what dont we have english optional instead

INSTEAD? Did you read this thread? Do you actually live in Ireland?

I was speaking about Ireland to a Japanese neighbour ... Then she said, 'Yes. But do you have a language?'

Dodges the central issue - it is possible to have a Very strong national identity without a unique language. The U.S. Switzerland, etc are just two examples I can think of off the top of my head. If we'd have had George Washington leading our revolution (against those evil Brits) instead of DeVelera, we'd be a hell of a lot better off now.

This is the key point: It is possible to have a very strong national identity without a national language. Several countries have proved it beyond doubt and I double-dare you to tell me otherwise.

Anyways, if you want to know why linguistic-fascism like yours is a bad idea, look at author Hugo Hamilton and the upbringing he had at the hands of an Irish language Nazi father.http://www.readinggroups.co.uk/guides/Recommended.aspx?id=25701&articleid=5252. So it looks like you're in good company. Simlar to pillocks who'd have no problem allowing Irish home sports games forced to go to Cardiff or someplace while Landsdown Rd is developed and Croke Park lies idle.

nesf

tweety111 wrote:

Tir gan teanga tir gan ainm..

Éire?

Anam my friend, anam.

Grudaire

SeanW wrote:

TNaG is joke.

It is possible to have a very strong national identity without a national language. Several countries have proved it beyond doubt

Simlar to pillocks who'd have no problem allowing Irish home sports games forced to go to Cardiff or someplace while Landsdown Rd is developed and Croke Park lies idle.

Firstly TnaG a joke? Yes because every other channel is better.....
RTE, TV3, The GOD cHANNEL, The Shopping channel.
Maybe if you watched TG4......

Please do name a country that has a very strong national identity, and more importantly why our language shouldn't be a part of our nationality.

thirdly tell me one good reason why the GAA should bail out the FAI a sport without a stadium, and with a management who hate the GAA, not to mention the biggest threat to the GAA. Besides Croke part does not lie idle that much, and the idleness serves as a break for the locals. Thirdly the will not actually get that much money for letting the stadium out.

simu

GAA and FAI matters not relevant here. Take it to some sports forum.

SeanW

Cliste wrote:

Maybe if you watched TG4......

Yeah as a matter of fact I do, quite frequently and when I do, I usually see either Westerns or stuff that was stolen from RTE Network 2. Like certain cartoons, pop music shows etc - used to be regular features on RTE 2 till TG4 got their hands on them and gaeilicified them.

Please do name a country that has a very strong national identity

I already have, The U.S.A has no language of it's own but it has a very strong national identity. Switzerland seems to be similar but obviously I know less about it.

and more importantly why our language shouldn't be a part of our nationality.

I'm not saying it shouldn't, I'm just saying it isn't. Not for me, and - bar one exception - not for anyone I know.

I just want to "live and let live" knowing that whatever happens to this archaic relic, Ireland will continue to be a strong country with a firm identity, while you seem to using the politics of fear to justify your compulsion to ram the Irish language down everyone's throat no matter how stupid and pointless it is.

Rós_Dubh

Well to be quite frank we wouldn't be in this situation only for the English did invade our country and penalised our language and our religion. Not forgetting taking our lands away from us and giving to English landlords or informers who 'took the soup'.
We all know about this I am sure but some want to 'let live'. Yes we can't be bitter for the rest of eternity, I know that, but we have to remember where all this came from.
Irish is growing stronger (oh yes it is!) and we should be proud of this! Also a bonus! The Irish language has been made an official language in the European Union. This is great for the Irish! To get a job in the European Union you need three European languages (so english, irish and french/german/spanish etc.) I agree with the 'tír gan teanga, tír gan ainm'. Infact in my household its our favourite saying. I love the Irish language and I try harder every day to get better and it fills me with pride.
Gaeilge is the 3rd ancient language in the world and we are the first to have a proper organised language with grammar etc.

I think this would be the worst time to make Gaeilge an uncompulsary language after the junior cert. The government has to change and improve the teaching of Irish in primary level and perhaps then consider changing it to uncompulsary. But to do it now would be treacherous to the language, it would wipe it clear for sure. I would agree if it was a choice subject and you could swap it for a European language like French (then i would be delighted) but not everyone would be.

I was dissapointed at the Fine Gael Enda Kenny to mention this as their policy if they were elected..

Hey and remember I am not trying to be offensive to anyones opinions.

Thóg an ghaoth léi
Scamall mór dubh
Is thosaigh sé ansin
Ag cur báistí go tiubh

anonymous_joe

Having just done the Leaving Cert, and Irish (at honours) I am in possession of loose and fairly bastardised Irish. Having just escaped the grip of secondary education, I feel able to comment on the matter.

Firstly, Enda Kenny says he wants it voluntary after Junior Cert. Voluntary. So you can still do it. After Junior Cert, allowing one 10 or 11 years of Irish. Again, hardly likely to kill the language.

Presumably if academic pressure was removed from the study of ár dteanga a greater affection for it would be fostered. I for one thorughly despised having to wreste with such a difficult language, knowing my future was in doubt if I failed to write a good enough essay on a **** poem as Gaeilge.

So, is ghrá liom mo theanga, agus dar liom, erm, feck it, just do what Kenny wants.

Rós_Dubh

Fair enough!
you brought your point across well 'anomynous joe'.
Up Kenny? Maybe but I need a bit more convincing on that subject...!

psicic

In my opinion, people should leave primary schools able to speak basic Irish, and that it should be optional for secondary school after the junior cert. Before I’m shot down, I want to clarify – this is to address the farce that is the current system and is a short-term view. Longer term, Irish should have parity of esteem with English and, if one is compulsory, then both should be.

The majority of students today have had abysmal tuition in Irish. They are not robots. You can’t just demand they each independently become fluent because it’s the right thing to do from a rosy, nationalistic point of view.

I believe the problem is at primary school and, without a foundation at that level, and without a compelling daily pressure on average individuals to use Irish, it’s a pointless waste to try and cram cúpla focail into students’ heads during an already stressful time such as the Leaving Cert. People realise that a lot rides on the Leaving Cert and it just breeds more resentment to include Irish in the syllabus in such a half-assed way.

The system at primary level is being reformed. Since the DES has only just gotten around to having proper textbooks printed and courses formulated for the SCG(the Irish exams primary school teachers have to take - only took 80 years for them to do this!:eek: ), and that the system is already crammed with sub-par teachers (with respect to the Irish language) I think that we can look forward to a whole generation of people who 1)enjoy the language and 2)are able to use it actively, but we can’t put unrealistic expectations on children definitely in the next 6-8 years.

As for waiting for the Government or the Civil Service to do something about it, I’m probably pointing out what most of you already know, but if you want more Gaelscoils at primary level or, indeed, second level, the government isn’t stopping you. It’s up to each Board of Management and the Patron of each school to decide its ethos and the execution of such. The DES and/or government has no direct function in either – they’ll still give cash to the schools regardless. It’s the schools and the PARENTS who decide this. We don’t have a comprehensive system like England, the State doesn’t have the only say in where and when schools are built.

If there’s a secret love of Irish ready to burst forth from the bosoms of the majority of parents in an area, well, have at it. Convert an existing school to Irish or get together and set up a school.AFAIK both are possible.

The point by Rós Dubh on the language being useful for getting a job in Europe is taken, but with two provisos; one, it isn’t official until 1st January 2007, so anyone thinking of using it in the next year will have to wait; two I’m sorry to say that most jobs advertised for European agencies can specify what languages they want employees to speak. Unless you’re talking about a general intake, which is territory I know little about because such an intake is so rare, Irish has a limited use in Europe, only 29 full-time positions requiring the language are to be created, and our Government, i.e. us taxpayers:rolleyes: , have to fund all costs relating to these posts and the use of Irish. So don’t expect an explosion of Irish speaking posts in Europe.

JustCoz

Haven't been on this thread in a while and was just reading some of the comments there.

I already have, The U.S.A has no language of it's own but it has a very strong national identity.

Sorry Sean W but waat a load of cr*p!! Have you ever been to America? I have on a number of occasions, actually worked as a waitress there, and as you know this allows you to meet alot of people. 95% of people would comment on my accent and claim that they were Irish in one way or another. Why? Because it means something to be Irish.

Are Americans patriotic? Yes. But why do most of them identify themselves as being "part Italian, part Greek, part Irish" whatever? Because the roots of their culture are not one iota as deep as ours. Alot of the people I met were really interested to hear that we had our own language and some of them even asked me to write down little phrases for them.

Why was it so interesting for them? Because they don't have a language of their own and this undermines their culture hugely in my opinion. i don't know a single Irish person who would identify themselves as being anything other than Irish, despite having grandparents from other countries. This is in no way because they don't want to be associated with the respective country but because it is enough to say you are Irish. For many Americans it is not enough to say you are American. Why the identity crisis? Because our heritage, language and culture are stronger and deeper than theirs.

And no the money spent on the revival of the Irish language is not a waste, because it has made a "dying" language (us Gaelgóirs know better) begin to grow in popularity again.

As a previous poster said, some LC students may want to make Irish optional but they would also love "compulsary tv watching" classes or "no homework days". The amount of middle-aged Irish people I have come across that are jealous of mo chuid Gaeilge and wish they could go back and learn it again is unreal. This is because with age, grow values

I agree with the 'tír gan teanga, tír gan ainm'. Infact in my household its our favourite saying. I love the Irish language and I try harder every day to get better and it fills me with pride.
Gaeilge is the 3rd ancient language in the world and we are the first to have a proper organised language with grammar etc.

We are on the same wavelength Rós Dubh. My knowledge of the Irish language makes me proud to be Irish. I think that some of these "anti-Gaeilge" posters should take a good look at themselves if they consider themselves truly Irish

nesf

JustCoz wrote:

My knowledge of the Irish language makes me proud to be Irish. I think that some of these "anti-Gaeilge" posters should take a good look at themselves if they consider themselves truly Irish

So by your "logic" a person isn't Irish as a child if they come from a family which does not speak Irish as it's first language.

Solid reasoning there mate. You've just made the vast majority of the country not Irish. I wonder if they agree...

hullaballoo

Right, this is a complete load of codswollop. Irish is our national language, like it or not. English is our most broadly spoken language and that makes logical sense--most of the world communicate through English media.

However, making Irish optional is singularly the most idiotic idea I've heard come from Fine Gael ever, and I don't have too much of a problem with their other policies.

We cannot make Irish optional, and continue to take ourselves seriously in Europe. We have only just managed to get the EU to accept Irish as an official language of the EU. If we made it optional in schools, we would (yet again) become the laughing stock of the EU.

Let's just take a step back and look at this; the official language in Holland is Dutch. They all speak English, and conduct most of their international business in English, but who in their right mind would suggest that Dutch be made optional in the schools?

Now, I know I'm going to be hit with the "yeah but Irish isn't in use all the time, Dutch is" line so I'm going to mount a pre-emptive attack on that one. Irish isn't in popular use because it isn't taught correctly in schools, not because Irish people don't want to speak it.

You could walk down any road in Ireland and ask people if they would like to be able to speak Irish and a number very close to all of them would say "yes". Of course they would, it establishes national identity, it makes us something other than just another pseudo-British nation. We are Celtic by race, not Britannic, so we have a Celtic language which is dear to most of us.

Now, I'm far from a nationalist and I'm certainly not a racist, but the Irish language (and culture) is a sticking point for me. I would hate nothing more than to see us lose our very historic, very beautiful language just because a bunch of 12-18 year old kids are too lazy to work at another subject.

I can fully accept that Irish is taught abysmally in schools in Ireland, but that is due to Government lackadaisicalness in the past in relation to the language:

Let’s look at Welsh. That’s a language that was on the brink of extinction not so long ago, but now, thanks to some relentless Government reforms, Welsh is a fiery and vibrant language that most Welsh people can speak fairly fluently. If the Irish government implemented some serious policy in relation to the language, within a very small number of years, Irish could be just as vivacious.

NoelRock wrote:

What, pray tell, are you Anglophobes fearing?

This has nothing to do with English whatsoever. Nobody has mentioned not wanting to speak English, so make another, sensible point.

There seems to be a huge fault here around the basic point of whether Irish is any use or not. That is a non-issue in real terms: if Irish were to be taught properly, and if Irish people were able to speak it, they would do so. Arguing that it’s no use is along the same grounds as arguing that French is any use. If you’re going to take that line of argument, then why are we even bothering with a tower of Babel? Why don’t we all just settle on English, and do away with all of the other nuisance languages?

There’s also a contention that because Irish is compulsive, many students resent it. Well to be frank, that’s a problem with their attitude. Albeit that Irish might not be taught in a fun way, it is no truer for Irish than for the other compulsory subjects. Who can say they thoroughly enjoyed Maths class? English?

SeanW wrote:

Exactly! The majority of students (in a poll taken in the North East Secondary Schools) indicated that 58% of students would rather the language was OPTIONAL. People DON'T like the language. The people who do like it CAN learn it - we're talking about the people you don't, hence "optional" and not "banned".

You’re taking a completely wrong perspective by quoting that statistic. If kids were able to make decisions for their own benefit, there would be no need to have a law against under-18’s drinking, or under-17’s having sex. Children are not able to see the bigger picture, so if 58% of them say they’d prefer Irish to be optional, then that 58% are just those who I have previously mentioned as being skivers. Incidentally, 58% isn’t the most concrete of margins anyway, I’m actually surprised it wasn’t higher.

SeanW wrote:

Gaeilge: Keeps the muppets happy but does absolutely nothing else, save for creating resentment among the majority.

This is one of those, “if I say it, then it’s true” posts. How about this:
Gaeilge: Broadens students’ knowledge of their culture and encourages individuality. Learning Irish from an early age develops linguistic skills.

Peanut wrote:

Sorry JustCoz, but that is a generalisation to the point of nothingness!

No it isn’t. It’s an analogy. JustCoz is saying that, in the same way as we’re “forced” to learn Irish, we’re “forced” to do other things in life to which it might seem like there’s no salient point.

Another thing; we are none of us “forced” to do a single thing in our lives. We have choices always available to us, although there may be conditions attached to those choices. Thus, we go to school to get an education, but how do we know that it is an education we will receive? Standards are set by people to whom we entrust the setting of standards, and those people believe that Irish is a necessary part of our education. So, we choose to do Irish once we decide that it is an education we are after.

JustCoz wrote:

95% of people would comment on my accent and claim that they were Irish in one way or another. Why? Because it means something to be Irish.

How do you like them apples SeanW?

I just want to finish by saying that although I am staunchly in favour of maintaining Irish as a compulsory subject in the LC, I do believe that the system used in teaching it needs to be drastically changed at a grass roots level, as do the opinions of those who consider it a dying language. It’s up to the government to make this happen, and I concede that it may be some time before we see any action on that front. I find the suggestion that Irish should be made an option unfathomable, and I cannot believe that any party leader in this country could take himself seriously as a contender for Taoiseach having defiled his party as Enda Kenny has.