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Child Item

Multiculturalism = a total crock of poo

Uthur

Even I, speaking as a complete lefty-looney, can see that multiculturalism is
a stupid idea. If you go to live in another country you accept that there
will be different social mores in that country that you have to abide by.

When you move to another country you have to play by their rules. An
Irish person wouldn't move to Iran and walk up the street half-naked or
bladdered drunk. Likewise, you can't travel half way around the world to
Ireland and act like you're still at home.

This means that certain things will not be accepted by the host
population here: circumcising your kids with a razor blade, beating them
with sticks, or refusing to give your seat on the bus to a heavily pregnant
or elderly woman, for example. And lots of other things besides.

Edit: I have heard liberals (even some of my friends) defend all of these things
on the grounds that they are acceptable in the perpetrators' native
cultures. I don't happen to agree

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billy the squid

Hibernian2005 wrote:

The % unemployment rate in NI is arout 3.6%, which is lower than down here. The problem is that so many Northerners are employed in the public-sector, which accounts for 63% of economic output compared to 37% down here. Privatisation would resolve that, as would the trimming of bureaucracy that we are seeing in plans to merge the 26 district councils into just 7.

63 percent, and how much does it cost the UK exchequer to pay all these civil servants. this ontop of our overpopulated civil service down here.

The thesis that Unionists would refuse to accept a United Ireland if voted for in the North is pure speculation, since we have not arrived at that position yet. It is not a thesis I would accept, considering the war-weariness of people up there, and the fact that 73% of NI Protestants say they would accept a UI if a majority up there voted for it.

and the other 27percent would dissappear into thin air right?

Bloodychancer

billy the squid wrote:

and the other 27percent would dissappear into thin air right?

No we should let 27% of Unionists have a veto over the rest of the Island right

Zombrex

Macmorris wrote:

Yes, it was. A country is "working" if it can provide security and defence for its citizens. By that standard the republic of Ireland was definitely working before the 90s.

Security and defence? What? From whom? What has multiculturalism got to do with the defence of this nation? Sorry not following your point at all ...

Macmorris wrote:

Most people were. The only people who weren't were those people who had the great fortune to be born in the multicultural north-eastern part of the country.

So there was no crime, not social unrest at all, till it was imported by foreigners into our peaceful little island??

Zombrex

Hibernian2005 wrote:

How do you reconcile your claims that we cannot afford an increased population from absorbing NI, with your claims that we can afford huge numbers of immigrants?

Because the immigrants aren't dragging their countries with them on their backs. If a Saudi doctor is working in Ireland it doesn't mean we have to spend money to build roads in Saudi Arabia or prop up their public service sector. In fact the Saudi doctor, by working and paying taxes, is helping ot build our roads and prop up our public sector.

Zombrex

Hibernian2005 wrote:

Privatisation would resolve that, as would the trimming of bureaucracy that we are seeing in plans to merge the 26 district councils into just 7.

What you think any of those 63% would still have jobs if large chunks of the public sector was privatised .. you seem to be missing the issue of why these people all work in the public sector. It cause there isn't jobs in the private sector for them.

Hibernian2005 wrote:

The thesis that Unionists would refuse to accept a United Ireland if voted for in the North is pure speculation, since we have not arrived at that position yet.

Does the name "Unionists" not give you some clue :rolleyes:

Unionists have been strongly against any hint at a move towards being in the Republic. There is no reason to believe this has changed.

Hibernian2005 wrote:

In any case, what would the aim be of any uprising by former Unionists after a United Ireland?

Same as the aim of the IRA

bonkey

Wicknight wrote:

Where is "there" .. I am aware of very few countries that ban drinking of alcohol.

There are still a number of dry counties in the US.

spooiirt!!

Nothing wrong with letting a few foreigners into the country, on the contrary, theyre needed to keep the economy growing. There is a problem though with mass immigration of poor people that dont speak the language.
The US has a citizenship test, where the applicant has to demonstrate language skills and the will to integrate himself, as well as to work. Seems sensible to me. In contrast here in Gemany we just throw German passports in every direction, but thats because we want to show the world what nice tolerant people we are now! Yay!

annR

Isn't there a new law in Germany that immigrants have to pass a German language test or something?

It makes sense . . .nothing is going to ghettoise immigrants more than not being able to speak the language.

To me I see multiculturism aka tolerance as the difference between my kids growing up feeling safe and happy or feeling unsafe because of all the ghettos and places/people to be avoided. Not put very well but you get my meaning. I know which kind of country I'd prefer.

bonkey

spooiirt!! wrote:

Nothing wrong with letting a few foreigners into the country, ...
The US has a citizenship test,
...
In contrast here in Gemany we just throw German passports in every direction,

Umm...what has letting people into the country to work got to do with the requirements for citizenship?

jc

spooiirt!!

"Umm...what has letting people into the country to work got to do with the requirements for citizenship? "

If they cant even speak German,or dont have any qualifications, its gonna be pretty hard for them to get a job, considering that Germany already has 5 million unemployed. There is no economic boom in Germany ( the opposite actually), so we dont really need any more unskilled, non German speaking people with little or no money to get German citizenship. ( thereby becoming eligible for Germanys generous welfare handouts)

"Isn't there a new law in Germany that immigrants have to pass a German language test or something?"

Germany has 16 federal states, each sets their own rules. (afaik!)

Snickers Man

grubber wrote:

Hang on there. Who is coining this "new term"? As I said above Multiculturalism was invented by those loony-left, limp wristed liberal politically correct brainboxes who came to the realization that elements of some immigrant cultures have no intention of integrating.

Limp wristed loonies? Oooh you're such a man.

Whaddya mean 'invented multiculturalism'? Do you even know what you MEAN by 'multiculturalism'? The phenomenon of people migrating settling mingling intermarrying etc is as old as mankind.

It's not something that was 'invented' by any one person, or even group of people.

Now, if you're talking about attitudes as to how best to address this phenomenon in the context of the 21st century where long-distance rapid travel is much easier than ever before then I would contend that 'multiculturalism' is a bogey-man term invented, not by nampy pamby liberal lefties but by the sort of venomous sharp tongued, sharp suited right wing commentariat who like to spew hatred but will always leave the actual fighting that ensues from their bilious rantings to the untermenschen of the working class.

They are the sort of people who used to sit at the back of class shoving bananas up their own arseholes.

The term doesn't describe anything new at all. It's just a neologism (look it up) designed to cast aspersions on those trying to espouse the finer human ideals of tolerance, respectand adherence to the rule of law rather than the tyranny of conformity.

Have a banana.

Zombrex

spooiirt!! wrote:

If they cant even speak German,or dont have any qualifications, its gonna be pretty hard for them to get a job,

Then why go to Germany for work ... surely the probably takes care of itself, supply and demand ...

grubber

Snickers Man wrote:

Limp wristed loonies? Oooh you're such a man.

Whaddya mean 'invented multiculturalism'? Do you even know what you MEAN by 'multiculturalism'?

Yes. I believe I explained that above, but I see you are going to put me right.

Snickers Man wrote:

The phenomenon of people migrating settling mingling intermarrying etc is as old as mankind.

Wrong. The process you are describing now is Human Migration. And yes this is a well known, observable phenomenon.
Not so "multiculturalism", a concocted word which is currently fashionable.

Snickers Man wrote:

It's not something that was 'invented' by any one person, or even group of people.

Twas I'm telling you

Snickers Man wrote:

Now, if you're talking about attitudes as to how best to address this phenomenon in the context of the 21st century where long-distance rapid travel is much easier than ever before

You're onto something now. Though we are probably on opposing sides as to the desirability of these huge movements of population. Personally I would like my grandchildren, If I ever have any, to know Ireland as a country whose people are predominantly fair skinned.

Snickers Man wrote:

then I would contend that 'multiculturalism' is a bogey-man term invented, not by nampy pamby liberal lefties but by the sort of venomous sharp tongued, sharp suited right wing commentariat who like to spew hatred but will always leave the actual fighting that ensues from their bilious rantings to the untermenschen of the working class.

Wait a minute. Are you now saying M/C was invented after all? Please make up your mind Snickers Man.

Snickers Man wrote:

They are the sort of people who used to sit at the back of class shoving bananas up their own arseholes.

Snickers Man wrote:

The term doesn't describe anything new at all. It's just a neologism (look it up) designed to cast aspersions on those trying to espouse the finer human ideals of tolerance, respectand adherence to the rule of law rather than the tyranny of conformity.

Does this have a meaning, or is it something you cribbed from another source?
Would you say, Snickers Man, that you are one of "those trying to espouse the finer human ideals of tolerance, respectand adherence to the rule of law rather than the tyranny of conformity?

Snickers Man wrote:

Have a banana.

I hope you'll understand that I have no experience of using bananas in the way you describe above. The Ireland in which I grew up wasn't given to the waste of food.

CerebralCortex

What is the signifigance of ppl having fairskin just for your grandchildren?
Just curious is all.

Zombrex

grubber wrote:

You're onto something now. Though we are probably on opposing sides as to the desirability of these huge movements of population. Personally I would like my grandchildren, If I ever have any, to know Ireland as a country whose people are predominantly fair skinned.

Not that this fact is going to change any time soon, but I would ask why? Cause I am tanned skin with brown eyes and jet black hair and I am kinda taking offense at your statement. Should we all have red hair too?

oscarBravo

grubber wrote:

Personally I would like my grandchildren, If I ever have any, to know Ireland as a country whose people are predominantly fair skinned.

Why?

lazydaisy

Thats going to pretty hard especially with the number of women who slap on fake tans. It will probably be known as a country with a people who are predominantly orange skinned.

Orange women, white men, and green fields. A whole new meaning to the work tricolour.

billy the squid

lazydaisy wrote:

Thats going to pretty hard especially with the number of women who slap on fake tans. It will probably be known as a country with a people who are predominantly orange skinned.

twould be like oompa loompa land.

You're onto something now. Though we are probably on opposing sides as to the desirability of these huge movements of population. Personally I would like my grandchildren, If I ever have any, to know Ireland as a country whose people are predominantly fair skinned.

And here is the rub of the issue. our "imagrants" are not white. the colour of your skin does not determine your culture, although when ever I ask soemone claiming that our "culture" is being eroded, what exactly irish culture actually is, they never answer, so i don't think I'll bother asking you.

annR

>>Personally I would like my grandchildren, If I ever have any, to know Ireland as a country whose people are predominantly fair skinned. <<

You sound like a Nazi.

bonkey

spooiirt!! wrote:

"Umm...what has letting people into the country to work got to do with the requirements for citizenship? "

If they cant even speak German,or dont have any qualifications, its gonna be pretty hard for them to get a job, considering that Germany already has 5 million unemployed.

You're not answering the question.

There is a distinction ebtween citizenship and living/working in a country. The latter generally occcurs first, and is the source of much of the complaints about the problems with immigration. Citizenship comes further down the line.

So I still don't see what the requirements for citizenship have to do with Joe Bloggski deciding to move there, work away, settle, raise a family....because citizenship isn't required for any of that.

jc

Snickers Man

grubber wrote:

Yes. I believe I explained that above, but I see you are going to put me right.

No you didn't.

grubber wrote:

Wait a minute. Are you now saying M/C was invented after all? Please make up your mind Snickers Man.

I'm saying the term is a recent concoction which is being used by right wingers to assign a negative connotation to humane attempts to cope with an age-old issue.

Do try to keep up with the discussion.

grubber wrote:

The term doesn't describe anything new at all. It's just a neologism (look it up) designed to cast aspersions on those trying to espouse the finer human ideals of tolerance, respectand adherence to the rule of law rather than the tyranny of conformity.
Does this have a meaning, or is it something you cribbed from another source?

Sorry diddums. I'll try to rephrase that sentence in words that you might understand.

'Multiculturalism is a makey-uppey word that describes an attitude that is very old. IE "treat others as you would like to be treated yourself." A man called Jesus is thought to have said something like that about 2000 years ago. And it was probably an old idea even then.

But just as some nasty people 2000 years ago thought that Jesus was a silly airy-fairy sort of guy and stuck nails in him, so too some people today think that this sort of softy attitude is harmful to their sense of themselves because they can't make their own minds up about anything.

They like a mob to tell them what's right and what's wrong. Especially what's wrong because acting like a complete thug is always great when you have a load of other people egging you on and telling you you're doing the right thing.

So they take all the nice sentiments that decent people have and group them under a new makey uppey word which they use in a negative way. That means they can kid themselves into thinking it's very clever to treat badly newcomers to the country and also to treat badly anybody who wants to treat newcomers fairly. Because, hey there's a big nasty word that's hard to spell that we can all pretend we're fighting against."

And they all lived happily ever after.

GuanYin

grubber wrote:

Personally I would like my grandchildren, If I ever have any, to know Ireland as a country whose people are predominantly fair skinned.

Oh Dear, with skin cancer on the rise a fair skinned nation will require require even MORE foreign medical workers to cope with the nationwide epidemic.

Soon they dark skinned ones will throw off the shackles of their centra uniforms to rule over our scarred, translucent, milk bottle bodies, making us turn to their foreign devil tongue and eat lots of food with garlic.

Woe upon the world you have envisaged for our children

spooiirt!!

Wicknight wrote:

Then why go to Germany for work ... surely the probably takes care of itself, supply and demand ...

Well they traditionally came because there was lotsa work here, thats not the case anymore. But theres still lots of reasons to wantt German citizenship if you come from a poor country like Turkey or Poland, even if you dont actually work. For instance, free healthcare, free public transport, Child support from the state - 200 a month per kid-, ( a big reason why poor people would come here to start their families), and a social welfare system thats so easy to abuse its like taking candy from a baby. And of course the few jobs that are still around still pay better than those in 2nd and 3rd world countries.

spooiirt!!

bonkey wrote:

You're not answering the question.

There is a distinction ebtween citizenship and living/working in a country. The latter generally occcurs first, and is the source of much of the complaints about the problems with immigration. Citizenship comes further down the line.

So I still don't see what the requirements for citizenship have to do with Joe Bloggski deciding to move there, work away, settle, raise a family....because citizenship isn't required for any of that.

jc

Did i say theyre connected? i dunno if i did, i guess i was addressing two different points in the same sentence without making that clear. Sorry.

If Joe Bloggski commits a crime, he gets kicked out, but if he has a german passport he becomes our problem. Doesnt matter, makes for more diversityand tolerance in how the taxpayers money is spent.

spooiirt!!

bonkey wrote:

You're not answering the question.

There is a distinction ebtween citizenship and living/working in a country. The latter generally occcurs first, and is the source of much of the complaints about the problems with immigration. Citizenship comes further down the line.

So I still don't see what the requirements for citizenship have to do with Joe Bloggski deciding to move there, work away, settle, raise a family....because citizenship isn't required for any of that.

jc

ArthurDent

grubber wrote:

Personally I would like my grandchildren, If I ever have any, to know Ireland as a country whose people are predominantly fair skinned. .

and if I ever have grandchildren, I don't care if they or the people surrounding them are green, yellow, black or with pink polka dots, so long as they live in a country that treats everyone fairly, preferably better than it treats its children today.

grubber

psi wrote:

Oh Dear, with skin cancer on the rise a fair skinned nation will require require even MORE foreign medical workers to cope with the nationwide epidemic.

Soon they dark skinned ones will throw off the shackles of their centra uniforms to rule over our scarred, translucent, milk bottle bodies, making us turn to their foreign devil tongue and eat lots of food with garlic.

Woe upon the world you have envisaged for our children

Clever answer. But not clever enough. Although white skin is the most prone to the effects of UV rays, unfortunately brown skin is also high risk. People with black skin are the least affected because they have more melanin pigment in their skin.

That said, I would never expect those trained doctors to leave their families and communities that need them, to come to our shores just to look after us. That strikes me as very selfish, when I'm sure their own countries need their skills even more.

Would you not agree?

PS - I grow garlick in my garden. Love the stuff.

oscarBravo

grubber wrote:

Clever answer. But not clever enough. Although white skin is the most prone to the effects of UV rays, unfortunately brown skin is also high risk. People with black skin are the least affected because they have more melanin pigment in their skin.

Okie dokie, but that doesn't answer the question: why do you want your putative grandchildren to grow up surrounded by fair-skinned people?

GuanYin

grubber wrote:

Clever answer. But not clever enough. Although white skin is the most prone to the effects of UV rays, unfortunately brown skin is also high risk. People with black skin are the least affected because they have more melanin pigment in their skin.

That said, I would never expect those trained doctors to leave their families and communities that need them, to come to our shores just to look after us. That strikes me as very selfish, when I'm sure their own countries need their skills even more.

Would you not agree?

PS - I grow garlick in my garden. Love the stuff.

Likewise a clever answer, but unfortunately you seemed to miss the part where I was purposefully obtuse and also - not clever enough.

Firstly, the large amount of foreign medical students are here for two reasons 1) We offer a better environment to learn medicine (in terms of quality of hospital, facilities available in the hospitals, treatments we can afford to perform) 2) We couldn't afford to run medical schools in Ireland without them.

Secondly, many medical staff come here because this country offers a better training (in terms of experience) and better pay. Again, we can't complain, the health system would collapse if we didn't have foreign nationals in the medical sector here.

Thirdly, many, not all mind you, come here for residencies and then return home with invaluable education, training and experience where they offer great benefits to their own country.

So basically your second paragraph is a no-goer.

neilled

grubber wrote:

Personally I would like my grandchildren, If I ever have any, to know Ireland as a country whose people are predominantly fair skinned.

Too late. The non fair skinned paddy is here in the form of......... well umm.......... me.

I speak with an Irish accent (northern), carry the (formerly) green passport, study in an Irish university, am involved in as a volunteer in the biggest youth organisation in ireland whom i have represented on international events (twice this year), i play trad irish music and would say that i know irish history better than most of these "patriots"- (and that goes back all the way to primary school where i won the local Feis (history section) three years running and much to the constant bewilderment of the parents of the other kids that were taking part), follow my county Football Team (we're crap at hurling) and when I'm out on the town i drink guinness I have also been known to sport a saffron kilt in the past.

Oh wait..... I didn't pass the skin colour test that some people seem to think is the big issue in preserving Irish "Culture" and i put it like that because culture is a constantly evovling thing.