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Child Item

Acceptable behaviour favours woman?

MorningStar

I was on another thread and it has also come up on another but very few people agree with me. I equate a woman crying to a man yelling and shouting. I think these are both signs of loss of emotional control. Most people seem to think that it is acceptable for a woman to cry if they get upset. I can imagine my mother being upset in this manner but I certainly wouldn't defend it and I would be really surprised if my wife did.
The two incidents where people felt that a woman crying was acceptable were
1) A mechanic told a woman that she couldn't take the car till she paid the bill as she forgot her purse she couldn't pay. AS the mechanic still didn't let her take the car she started cry becasue she felt humiliated
2) A ticket inspector stopped a woman and as she did not have a valid ticket he called her a fare evador and took her name. The woman again felt humiliated and started crying.

Two different woman. I generally feel this is a really unfair on anybody dealing with them. Generally I see this as unacceptable behaviour from an adult. any one can have a bad day and I am sure there can be general exceptions if people are in particular emotional pressure but people defended this behaviour as normal and rational.

I must admit I am finding friends that deal with many new irish citizens and they are complaining that one certain country seems to find this normal and use it more like a trick. Some people apparently cry on demand and once you keep saying no they eventually stop and then get angry for not getting their way.

One I think is a lack of emotional control and the other is passive aggresive either way I don't see how or why this should be acceptable.

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Sleepy

It's not acceptable behaviour imho.

MorningStar

Sleepy wrote:

It's not acceptable behaviour imho.

I am surprised you would agree with me but glad you have.

Earthhorse

MorningStar wrote:

I equate a woman crying to a man yelling and shouting. I think these are both signs of loss of emotional control.

I absolutely agree with this. Men get angry, women get upset - generally speaking. For some reason one reaction (the man's) has somehow come to be seen as an inability to deal with emotion (men aren't good with emotion) and the other is seen as a perfect expression of emotion (women show their emotions openly).

The only thing I would say is that, in terms of behaviour, a man yelling and shouting could be more upsetting than a woman crying. I've seen men fly off the handle to the point where I'm frightened by what they might do. Rarely am I frightened by how much a woman might cry, though it is absolutely unacceptable for them to cry in order to manipulate a situation.

Zombrex

I think a woman crying on purpose because she things it will get her sympathy is completely unacceptable behaviour (you see that a lot in teenage girls, the girls in my school could open the flood gates on que at the hint of being in trouble).

But it is normally quite obvious when that is the case. I don't think every time a woman does this it is because he is being passive aggressive.

I have known a few girls, including my sister, who have cried at situations (worse than the ones you describe above, but in the same vain, ie not something a man would cry at) and they are more embarrashed they started crying than anything else. Last time was on the Luas a few weeks ago where a girl (very innocent looking) had the wrong ticket (from what I could hear she was going the wrong way or something) and the inspector fined her. She went bright red, was visable shaken and afterwards sat down and, despite trying to fight it, it was clear she was very embarrased and upset and was close to tears.

I wouldn't considerd a woman crying like this to be anywhere near a woman or man getting agressive and shouting. They aren't the same thing at all, and I have seen a fair few women get very very aggressive and start screaming and shouting at me (from working in a shop this happened a lot more than a woman crying or a man shouting).

Yes you might feel sorry for a girl crying, but if they have done something wrong they have done something wrong. I would be more embarrased for them if they started crying over anything else.

Lemming

A shouting man is acceptable (within reason of course). People get angry. People complain. Some people even raise their voices.

Shouting does not equate to violence. Aggression equates to violence.

So, are you trying to say that a woman crying is the same as a violent man?

Earthhorse

Shouting to thin air is not aggression, shouting at someone is aggression.

I find it hard to think of a situation in which crying could be construed as aggressive. Manipulative sure, but not aggressive.

Both behaviours are unacceptable to me but one is more difficult to detect than the other.

Zombrex

Earthhorse wrote:

Both behaviours are unacceptable to me but one is more difficult to detect than the other.

Why is someone crying unnacceptable to you?

MorningStar

Wicknight wrote:

I wouldn't considerd a woman crying like this to be anywhere near a woman or man getting agressive and shouting. They aren't the same thing at all, and I have seen a fair few women get very very aggressive and start screaming and shouting at me (from working in a shop this happened a lot more than a woman crying or a man shouting).

I think there is a generational gap here too. Older woman I think are more likely to cry. A crying woman can cause al lot of aggression towards a man standing in front of them.

Lemming wrote:

A shouting man is acceptable (within reason of course). People get angry. People complain. Some people even raise their voices.

Shouting does not equate to violence. Aggression equates to violence.

So, are you trying to say that a woman crying is the same as a violent man?

A shouting man is not acceptable anywhere I go. It is isntantly recognised as loss of control. A raised voice doesn't equate to shouting either.

When did we equate violence to shouting? Shouting shows lack of controll which may result in violence. So I never said crying equates to violence other than to say it is a similar lack of control.

Crying can be used aggressively and to manipulate, there is no real defence a man can take that people will not assume he is in the wrong. In both incidents I mentioned the men were accused of bullying the person. We are also talking about reasonable situations people should be able to handle as adults.

simu

Women get angry too, ya know. Blows a bit of a whole in your theory, Magpie.

Tbh, I've never seen an adult cry like that in public apart from at funerals which are completely different situations whereas one sees angry people every day.

Earthhorse

Wicknight wrote:

Why is someone crying unnacceptable to you?

Someone crying in order to manipulate a situation is unacceptable to me.

magpie

Women get angry too, ya know. Blows a bit of a whole in your theory, Magpie.

Which theory is this? I haven't even posted on this thread

Zombrex

Earthhorse wrote:

Someone crying in order to manipulate a situation is unacceptable to me.

I agree, anyone doing anything to maniplulate me, be it aggressive or passive aggressive is unacceptable ... but a woman (or man) can get upset and cry in situations where they "lose control" (as MorningStar put it) but it doesn't mean they are trying to manipulating you

simu

magpie wrote:

Which theory is this? I haven't even posted on this thread

Oops! I meant MorningStar. Nice of you to spot this, though!

Zombrex

magpie wrote:

Which theory is this? I haven't even posted on this thread

Wow ... spooky .. Simu what lotto numbers you playing this week?:D ..

magpie

Obviously objectionable viewpoint = Magpie

MorningStar

simu wrote:

Women get angry too, ya know. Blows a bit of a whole in your theory, Magpie.

Tbh, I've never seen an adult cry like that in public apart from at funerals which are completely different situations whereas one sees angry people every day.

Yes and men get upset too. Certain elements of these emotional responses are expected but loss of control such as crying should be unacceptable unless extreme circumstances. Embarssement or percieved humiliation aren't on that list as far as I can see.

Here was one of the situations I spoke of. Bear in mind this was written by a son so it has to be seen as bias considering the terms and language used. The inspector appears ultimately to be wrong but I beleive the CIE policies changed so that if certain facts were established you must list them as an evader which they can appeal later.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054851117

simu

MorningStar wrote:

Certain elements of these emotional responses are expected but loss of control such as crying should be unacceptable unless extreme circumstances.

I agree but tbh, it's pretty rare that people do cry in public and I don't think it's fair to suggest that this is how women typically respond to annoying situations.

MorningStar

simu wrote:

I agree but tbh, it's pretty rare that people do cry in public and I don't think it's fair to suggest that this is how women typically respond to annoying situations.

I never even suggested it was how typical woman react. All I said was people seem to find it acceptable if they do. THe situations weren't so much annoying but part of day to day life that could happen to anyone.

Earthhorse

Wicknight wrote:

I agree, anyone doing anything to maniplulate me, be it aggressive or passive aggressive is unacceptable ... but a woman (or man) can get upset and cry in situations where they "lose control" (as MorningStar put it) but it doesn't mean they are trying to manipulating you

Perhaps I should have covered this more thoroughly in my post. I did mention that manipulation was difficult to detect (personally, I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt when they're upset) and perhaps this is why crying is more acceptable to society.

What I mean is, when we see someone crying we accept they are upset and not trying to manipulate the situation, whereas when someone starts shouting we tend to lose sympathy for them, forgetting they might be upset, and think they're trying to bully their way out of the situation.

It's just a theory and an attempt to answer the OPs question. But in threads like this we talk too generally. Behaviour can only be viewed as acceptable or unacceptable on a case by case basis.

Lemming

MorningStar wrote:

Yes and men get upset too. Certain elements of these emotional responses are expected but loss of control such as crying should be unacceptable unless extreme circumstances. Embarssement or percieved humiliation aren't on that list as far as I can see.

Here was one of the situations I spoke of. Bear in mind this was written by a son so it has to be seen as bias considering the terms and language used. The inspector appears ultimately to be wrong but I beleive the CIE policies changed so that if certain facts were established you must list them as an evader which they can appeal later.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054851117

MorningStar, the woman in question was being publically humiliated. Do you understand this concept? To. Be. Publically. Humiliated.

Never mind the other little fact that she was being publically accused of something that, as events transpired, was utterly false.

To be honest, her reaction is not surprising to me. One of an innocent person who is desperate to prove that they are, indeed, innocent when nobody seems to be listening and is just stitching them up for a hatchet job.

Nasty_Girl

Tried to read all the posts so dunno if this has been said.

What would it be like if a man started crying over a parking ticket or something? Is that acceptable behaviour?

Is it acceptable for a woman to shout?

Before you ask, my boyfriend's mother was trying to return something to a shop and the manager was reduced to tears because she calmly tore his arguement to shreds and he felt like a right f*cking eegit.

Was this acceptable behaviour?
If she had shouted at him would that have been ok?

Sleepy

If she burst into tears in the middle of that, she humiliated herself a lot more than the jumped up git of an inspector tbh.

Nasty_Girl

If the inspector was a woman would she have cried though?

Maybe women of a certain age still feel threatened by men, from growing up/living in houses where the father/husband was/is boss or from a male dominated workplace etc.

Me myself, got the face torn off me by a bus driver because I was on the return of my ticket (heading back to Wex from Clonmel) and the previous driver had punched the R on it!

The driver couldn't understand that the ticket said Wexford-Clonmel on it and not Clonmel-wexford and had only been purchased THAT day! So there was no way I coulda used it already!

Initially I felt like a right tool, standing there with him bitching at me and telling me to get off the bus and then yes, I did feel my eyes become a little moist.... but then I said **** this asshole, and argued back at him til he let me on the shagging bus without a single tear.

Zombrex

I am not really following the definition of "acceptable behaviour"

I think it means not behaving in a generally rude fashion ... i feel to see how crying is breaking that. Sure it can be a humilating and a bit child like, but it is nothing like shouting or being agressive, or even being generally rude. It is not an action towards another person, it is a personal thing based on emotion.

Its like saying is it acceptable to smile cause you are happy.

annR

>>Certain elements of these emotional responses are expected but loss of control such as crying should be unacceptable unless extreme circumstances. Embarssement or percieved humiliation aren't on that list as far as I can see.<<

Perceived humiliation could certainly be an extreme circumstance for someone just going about their daily routine. People can have a bad day etc. People are at the mercy of their hormones and I'm not just talking about women.

Why do you think it is unacceptable?

>>What I mean is, when we see someone crying we accept they are upset and not trying to manipulate the situation, whereas when someone starts shouting we tend to lose sympathy for them, forgetting they might be upset, and think they're trying to bully their way out of the situation.<<

It might be more to do with fear. Anyone who looks out for themselves is wary of a shouting man who looks as though he is becoming aggressive. It might be unfair but most people especially women would tend not to take any chances and just get out of the way.

You have to ask yourself as well . . . .who is more likely to actually be manipulating the situation, a shouting man or a crying woman. It's actually very embarrassing for most women to end up crying in public. There's probably more men who don't mind a bit of old fashioned shouting. I am generalising I guess, it's just my opinion.

>>A crying woman can cause al lot of aggression towards a man standing in front of them.<<

I don't understand . . .?

I'm not sure I'm getting the point of the whole thread to be honest.

MorningStar

Lemming wrote:

MorningStar, the woman in question was being publically humiliated. Do you understand this concept? To. Be. Publically. Humiliated.

Never mind the other little fact that she was being publically accused of something that, as events transpired, was utterly false.

To be honest, her reaction is not surprising to me. One of an innocent person who is desperate to prove that they are, indeed, innocent when nobody seems to be listening and is just stitching them up for a hatchet job.

She wasn't publicly humiliated. She didn't have a ticket it was reasonable for the inspector to accuse her. What could he have said not to upset her? What could he have done once she started crying.
AS events transpired she was in the wrong for assuming the ticket office was closed. It is reasonable to expect that an adult could cope with an false accusation without losing control

annR

I think that you'd have to be there to witness the demeanour of everyone involved to really be able to say how humiliated the woman was.

Morningstar, you seem to be assuming that people have a choice in all this. They don't sometimes, their emotions overwhelm them and it comes out. Most women who cry in public are doing their very best not to cry but for some reason it seems to make it worse.

What's the problem with it anyway, I don't understand why it bothers you.

Lemming

MorningStar wrote:

She wasn't publicly humiliated. She didn't have a ticket it was reasonable for the inspector to accuse her. What could he have said not to upset her? What could he have done once she started crying.
AS events transpired she was in the wrong for assuming the ticket office was closed. It is reasonable to expect that an adult could cope with an false accusation without losing control

She wasn't publically humiliated? Really?

Lets see.

A). Ticket vendor appears closed, no sign of life and boarded up.

. Woman immediately informs inspectors upon being stopped.
C). Woman immediately offers to pay the fare at destination
D). Inspector refuses (when prior behaviour of CIE staff indicates this is not a mandate) and then pubically accuses her of being a fare dodger, in a station, in morning rush-hour, despite her having informed him of the circumstances concerning the no-ticket.
E). Inspector's own character is questioned by other CIE staff at a later date, which would indicate that the inspector is known for having a history of bullying and power-tripping.

So, what's not public humilation in there? P-u-b-l-i-c humiliation. "P-u-b-l-i-c" MorningStar, "P-U-B-L-I-C"

And as events transpired it turns out that she was quite corerct in stating that the ticket office appeared closed and that there was nobody manning it. Only for the fact that the ticket inspector gained entry to it (being a member of CIE) was it discovered that there was staff in there not doing their job.

Gandhi

There are different consequences. Taking a professional setting as an example:

If a woman (or man) cries in the workplace without good reason, she is not going to get reprimanded for it, but will probably lose a lot of respect from her colleagues.

A man (or woman) shouting in the workplace without good reason is far more likely to get reprimanded, but less likely to lose respect from colleagues.

MorningStar

Lemming wrote:

She wasn't publically humiliated? Really?

Lets see.

A). Ticket vendor appears closed, no sign of life and boarded up.
. Woman immediately informs inspectors upon being stopped.
C). Woman immediately offers to pay the fare at destination
D). Inspector refuses (when prior behaviour of CIE staff indicates this is not a mandate) and then pubically accuses her of being a fare dodger, in a station, in morning rush-hour, despite her having informed him of the circumstances concerning the no-ticket.
E). Inspector's own character is questioned by other CIE staff at a later date, which would indicate that the inspector is known for having a history of bullying and power-tripping.

So, what's not public humilation in there? P-u-b-l-i-c humiliation. "P-u-b-l-i-c" MorningStar, "P-U-B-L-I-C"

And as events transpired it turns out that she was quite corerct in stating that the ticket office appeared closed and that there was nobody manning it. Only for the fact that the ticket inspector gained entry to it (being a member of CIE) was it discovered that there was staff in there not doing their job.

Look at it from the inspectors view.
1) woman arrives without ticket
2) woman claims station closed
3) it is verified the station was open
4) Calls woman a fare evador
5) She starts to cry.

Policies have changed where everybody who is suspected as a fare evador has their name taken.

I asked you two questions which you were unable to answer or refuse to.

What should he have called her?

What should have done once she started crying?

The truth is nobody knew all sides of what happened at the point she cried that is the question not the whole story. THe inspector made a reasonable accusation and she acted unreasonbably. It does not matter who was right or wrong it is her reaction that is the question. She managed to humiliate her self more and most people would probably assumed she was guilty.

THe whole story is written third hand and from one view so try to consider that in the assumptions of the guy who's job and training is to deal with fare evasion.