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Question about Paris...

bonkey

Can anyone fill me in as to what apparently sparked the latest (still-escalating) outbreaks in Paris?

jc

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bonkey

Neuro wrote:

I just thought of this the other day: does this law require Catholic nuns to remove their headdress?

I believe all religious orders are already prohibited from holding teaching positions...or perhaps its just that they couldn't wear their religoius attire whilst doing so.

However, you are correct in that if a nun is a student somewhere, then yes, this law does indeed require that.

the_syco wrote:

Their mindset, tbh.

Their mindset? You mean a mindset other than ours?

How is your comment - distancing yourself from those you disapprove of - any different in nature from the one you are commenting on?

jc

Karl Hungus

bonkey wrote:

Their mindset? You mean a mindset other than ours?

How is your comment - distancing yourself from those you disapprove of - any different in nature from the one you are commenting on?

jc

Seeing as it's just one speaker, I would've said his mindset, before leaping to any conclusions about their mindset.

pukey

i live in fontenay sous bois at the minute, someone tried to blow up the petrol station across the road last night(by setting fire to it), 200 cars were burnt out up the road saurday night(in rosny sous bois) and apparently a gang of 60 youths thrashed an RER train in the nearest station(val de fontenay). things are definitely getting out of hand

[Deleted User]

DadaKopf wrote:

Wow, I know people who live in France, too! SNAP! And... I've been to France. And I've seen French movies. I was watching this film once, with a French person, called 'When the Cat's Away', and, like... they totally ripped on this Moroccan character, like he was stupid. And yer wan, the French one said, like, that, like, French people make fun of the Arabs. And the blacks.

Are you being facetious?

Sponge Bob

pukey wrote:

things are definitely getting out of hand

I am amazed it took this long to erupt but when it did

. What are the (once feared ) CRS up to ???

lazydaisy

Where these rioters are getting their guns and where they are learning how to shoot?

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/07/international/europe/07france.html?ex=1289019600&en=fd3cf7ecce769a91&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

and in case anyone complains that my source is the Jew York Times::rolleyes:

http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/redir.php?jid=b6b40b42cf6016a4&cat=e597bd109c960ae3

netwhizkid

The situation in France is getting out of control tbh. And this will not stay within the borders of france if the riots are not stopped. Already Belgium and Germany has had minor Incidents. This is a typical example of the problems immigration can cause. If these individuals had tried to integrate in french society, then maybe they would be more accepted and liked more. If immigrants don't try to adapt then they should not be allowed enter said country and let them soot it out in whatever quagmire that they are in. We now as a nation need to take a hard look and think about curtailing immigration heavily or it will be the centre of Dublin that will be burning next. It could very well happen within the next ten yrs. These people could make things alot better for themselves but they prefer to be eluvise and not integrate properly. With six million Muslims living in France could the country be heading for Civil War? IMO this is yet another reason to stop EU expansion into Turkey and the Arab world in general.

fly_agaric

netwhizkid wrote:

IMO this is yet another reason to stop EU expansion into Turkey and the Arab world in general.

I'd say that Turkey has roughly a snowball's chace in hell of getting into the EU now. These riots have sealed it unless they are parachuted in somehow without any referenda.

Sand

I guess the guys who handled New Orleans so badly and terribly will be taking notes on how the vaunted French social model handles rioters/gangs/social disintegration *without* a massive natural disaster on top of it. Theres much they can learn from their idealogical and philisophical superiours Im sure.

And whilst Im sympathetic to any people whove actually have to live in France with the French and their charming manner, it is taking the mick at this stage. Wheres the French army to restore civil order? The only way the riots will be contained, given theyre basically lashing out wildly in anger, is by taking and occupying these hotspots and implementing and enforcing a curfew after darkness. The option of deploying the army against these gunmen who are targeting police and firefighters also has to be considered, though only as a last resort. Its not right to ask policemen and firefighters to risk being shot if youre not willing to defend them.

Either way, the fun and games for these gangs (and it this stage it appears the rioters are trying to outdo each other in the chaos they cause, they cant all have know the 2 kids personally) has to stop.

I see the somewhat Right and wildly Left parties in France are having a typical "lets share the blame" session. But the anger underlying these riots didnt spring up in the last 3 or 4 years. These no go areas are what happens when you ghettoise people, subsidize underachievement and make no real effort to build a shared culture - not multiculturalism, but a shared culture. Theres talk of radical Islam offering itself as an alternative to the French Republic that has alienated itself from these people, but thankfully this hasnt yet occured. What would be a sure recipe for disaster would be to enlist the aid of Islamic leaders in restoring order, and by doing so elevate them to a leadership position, or a liason between the Republic and these ghettos. Its not encouraging to see that someone thought it a good idea to arrange for a fatwa to be issued against the riots. As if the rioters were all good Muslims.

lazydaisy

netwhizkid wrote:

IMO this is yet another reason to stop EU expansion into Turkey and the Arab world in general.

You can stop EU expansion into the Arab world but you can't stop Arab worlds expansion in the EU, also known in some circles as Eurabia.

Karl Hungus

lazydaisy wrote:

You can stop EU expansion into the Arab world but you can't stop Arab worlds expansion in the EU, also known in some circles as Eurabia.

If I had seen that a week ago, I probably would've dismissed it as a stromfront-esque blurb, but now I think there's a ring of truth to it.

Far Corfe

Ajnag wrote:

Hard to integrate when your segregated.

I dont know, having 25 thousand people running around the South Circular Road in pyjamas does not look much like integration to me.

lazydaisy

Far Corfe-

I nearly wet myself laughing with that!

bonkey

Sand wrote:

I guess the guys who handled New Orleans so badly and terribly will be taking notes on how the vaunted French social model handles rioters/gangs/social disintegration *without* a massive natural disaster on top of it. Theres much they can learn from their idealogical and philisophical superiours Im sure.

Yea, because thats what everyone was saying during the New Orleans disaster, wasn't it.

"The Europeans, especially the French, would never fail to respond to a crisis in a manner better than this, due to their inherent superiority".

When you read "they screwed it up" as "obviously, we Europeans are better and wouldn't make such a mistake" I would humbly suggest it is your interpretation which is at fault.

And whilst Im sympathetic to any people whove actually have to live in France with the French and their charming manner

Ah, it all becomes clear. its just bash-the-French time.

Why not just say that they deserve it, Sand? You could even fabricate a suggestion that this is what the critics of the New Orleans handling also did, just to remain consistent with the above comments.

Wheres the French army to restore civil order? The only way the riots will be contained...
...
The option of deploying the army against these gunmen who are targeting police and firefighters also has to be considered, though only as a last resort.

So you ask the question as a criticism, and then offer an explanation as to why there may be just reason it hasn't been done yet.

I'm not even sure what you're saying at this point. Is it a good or bad thing that the army isn't there?

Its not right to ask policemen and firefighters to risk being shot if youre not willing to defend them.

So it is, or is not, a last resort? Has the stage of last resort been reached yet?

Either way, the fun and games for these gangs (and it this stage it appears the rioters are trying to outdo each other in the chaos they cause, they cant all have know the 2 kids personally) has to stop.

Why does it have to stop Sand?

Its the people you have sympathy for (those living with the French) rioting aganist the French who you apparently have nothing but scorn for. And that scorn seems to be at least partly based in the unacceptable way these rioters have been socially ghettoised and otherwise mistreated societally. Why are for the army to be called in to oppress them back into submission?

jc

lili

houlaaaaaaa!

it's not war in france. slow down:)

well, if destruction of proprieties can make the things involving in the french banlieues (because apparently it's the only way for being heard) i'm all for it.

zinc

Captain Trips wrote:

Or - the immigrants have made little effort to adapt to French values and lifestyle, preferring instead to segregate themselves in isolated communities where the maintain values incompatible with French culture and history.

The headscarf ban was an opportunity for them to show how they can adapt - much like european women do by covering arms and legs when in muslim countries and entering mosques. The reverse, unfortunately, shows that these immigrants refuse or are unwilling to adapt.

I agree, I'm tired of excuses consistently made on behalf of people burning down cities.

zinc

lili wrote:

houlaaaaaaa!

it's not war in france. slow down:)

well, if destruction of proprieties can make the things involving in the french banlieues (because apparently it's the only way for being heard) i'm all for it.

The authorities are callings it akin to Cival War so don't be so flippant. I hope it spreads myself and shows the idiocy of trying to integrate people who have no wish to integrate. A wake up call if you will.

bonkey

zinc wrote:

and shows the idiocy of trying to integrate people who have no wish to integrate. A wake up call if you will.

A wake up call to who? The problem in France is a refusal to integrate people who do not wish to abandon their own culture and become French.

It is not a failure of trying to integrate.
Its a failure of trying to accomodate without integrating.

jc

Nuttzz

Zinc, wishing civil war to prove a point isn't very smart.

It is a wake up call for Europe, if people arrive in Europe and want to live by the rules and cultures of their home country, do we allow them? do we financially support them? or do we deport them?

Personally I think that as long as they obey the laws of the land they should be allowed live their life without state interference, at the same time they shouldn't expect to be treated differently compared to "the locals" with regard to access to health care, housing, social welfare etc.

I have seen immigrants working here looking to improve their lot and I have seen them come here looking for handouts, there are good and bad in all societies.

Sponge Bob

Nuttzz wrote:

It is a wake up call for Europe, if people arrive in Europe and want to live by the rules and cultures of their home country, do we allow them? do we financially support them? or do we deport them?

Well their parents came to France in the 1960s to full employment . The offspring were born there and grew up to mass unemployment.

I kinda also blame the parents for sticking to the ghettos that the Banlieux have become in the past 30 years since full employment melted away and not moving their French kids to where integration would have been easier .

But whats done is done, and a bloody mess it is now

TomF

I wonder if the Irish zest for acquiring holiday homes in France has abated a little with the recent news of frolicking youths, and their escapades spreading to the provinces?

The_Goose

It was said back up the thread already! Where is the army? i m quite surprissed there has been no mention of them been mobilized in any form .

I m not sayin that these people dont have a cause to fight for but in the interest of the safety of the french people it has to stop.
These things may start out with the intention of improving the way of life of the people but these guy s are just ripping up the place and assaulting people???

Army now!!

lili

the army?
come on! stop the delirium!
i have no time yet to explain but i will as soon as possible.

adonis

lazydaisy wrote:

[ie the head scarf ban, etc etc]. The media representation is that there is strong segregation and ghettoisation of these communities - that they are marginalised geographically, economically and socially. That collective anger is going to erupt sometime.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4401670.stm

the headscarf ban doesnt just ban headscarves...it bans all religous insignia in public buildings...i.e schools, hospitals etcetera - a good idea in a secularist republic.

its obvious that there are problems on both sides, with sarcoszy being a bit of a nonce and france's tendencies toward extremism (both left and right) and the lack of an attempt to integrate these HUGE communities within france.
On the other hand these citizens (they are no longer immigrants) have a responsibilty to the Republic of France, and their responsibility is to attempt to integrate into the society that they live in.. someone said earlier that he hoped ireland learnt a lesson from this. I concur.

The_Goose

lili wrote:

the army?
come on! stop the delirium!
i have no time yet to explain but i will as soon as possible.

What would you suggest, let them do what they like?

simu

Sponge Bob wrote:

I kinda also blame the parents for sticking to the ghettos that the Banlieux have become in the past 30 years since full employment melted away and not moving their French kids to where integration would have been easier .

I doubt they could afford to.

I think what Lili many be trying to say is that the violence is contained within relatively small trouble spots in different cities rather than it being a case of total societal collapse!

Cork

There is no such thing as a melting pot with regards to identity and culture. Even 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation - it does not exist.

Multiculturalism has positives and negatives.

cal29

This is a warning to Ireland not to create ghettoes of immigrants because it will come back to kick us in the ass in the future as it did to the UK in th eighties France now and presumably germany sometime in the future

We need to treat our immigrants as equals not second class citizens that can be locked away in Ghettoes and only allowed out to do the menial tasks we dont want to do ourselves

pickarooney

Concentrating on the immigrant aspect is rather flawed. This is really not about integrating cultures, hanging on to traditions or even racial segregation as such. It's like if the people from the Ballymun towers or Summerhill got pissed off for some (possible quite ligitimate) reason and started making noise, which then turned into a riot with a load of lads out for a laugh and a bit of wrecking so the original point of the protest, whatever it was, is lost.

It's more to do with jealousy, boredom and general anger than headscarves and prayer mats.

Spong Bob wrote:

I kinda also blame the parents for sticking to the ghettos that the Banlieux have become in the past 30 years since full employment melted away and not moving their French kids to where integration would have been easier .

You can be pretty sure they would have if they had any choice in the matter. It boils down to poor people living in poor areas with no jobs and crap schools. Very hard to get out of, though not impossible, but the ones who want someone else to solve the problem will always be heard over those who try to improve their own lots.

Sand

Yea, because thats what everyone was saying during the New Orleans disaster, wasn't it.

Yep pretty much - the fallout from Katrina was due to indifferent uncaring capitalism and the fabled "american dream" (complete with " ") abandoning the weakest and non-white. Thats roughly what I recall the constant dirge being. Americans re-evaluating their way of life and so on and so forth.

Like I said, Im waiting for the French to show us how its done. This is the way of life thats constantly held as some shining beacon for us to all achieve. The way of life that doesnt abandon the weakest unlike les cruel ango-saxons.

Ah, it all becomes clear. its just bash-the-French time.

Ah Bonkey, its just simply clear that we differ here. I am not at all enamoured with the French manner, and my long suffering brothers in les banlieues are heartily sick of it too. Anyway, why so concerned? If I called Americans war mongering rednecks I doubt youd be so put out.

Why not just say that they deserve it, Sand?

Do you mean deserve it morally or something? They dont deserve it morally, that disabled man who was burnt in the bus, or the man beaten to death defending his car might have been the most charming individuals in France, so Im not going to project the blame for something on the victims of it when it belongs to the system that created the anger. Regardless of provocation however, nobody has the right to murder someone else like that.

So you ask the question as a criticism, and then offer an explanation as to why there may be just reason it hasn't been done yet.

I'm not even sure what you're saying at this point. Is it a good or bad thing that the army isn't there?

My fault, I wasnt clear. Deploying the army to protect police and firefighters to to provide bodies on the ground to occupy and hold territory should be done ASAP. When I said the army should possibly be deployed against these gunmen who are appearing I meant actively seek them out, and shoot them...

Why does it have to stop Sand?

Because its harming the lives of ordinary law abiding people both in the cites and in the locations that are being "raided". In the interests of *supposedly* liberal political correctness ( the sort that views law enforcement as oppression ) the police have retreated from these areas and abandoned people there to these gangs. This rioting is only making the news because the gangs are venturing forth from their homes into "good" areas. The police need to retake these areas and remain there. Unfortunately that wont happen, the political will isnt there to do anything but try and put the lid back on the pot and leave the problem for the next generation of politicians to solve.

Its the people you have sympathy for (those living with the French) rioting aganist the French who you apparently have nothing but scorn for. And that scorn seems to be at least partly based in the unacceptable way these rioters have been socially ghettoised and otherwise mistreated societally. Why are for the army to be called in to oppress them back into submission?

See above. I sympathise with them, but their behaviour is self defeating. Le Pen stands a better chance of winning the next elections (and he came 2nd last time only due to the left choosing the least worst option in Chirac) the longer the riots go on. Whilst the French establishment have been patronising these people and emasculating them, killing them with kindness, Le Pen will be far more radical (traditional?) in his treatment of them.

well, if destruction of proprieties can make the things involving in the french banlieues (because apparently it's the only way for being heard) i'm all for it.

Do youre all for the killers of the man who was beaten to death defending his car? Small price to pay for politically correct mumbo jumbo.

A wake up call to who? The problem in France is a refusal to integrate people who do not wish to abandon their own culture and become French.

For as long as you dont have integration, and a shared culture, you will have social division and rioting. It happens again, and again, and again. If you make compromises on your basic values and cultural standards, your sending a clear signal that those values and standards arent worth defending.

What would you suggest, let them do what they like?

Well, its worked so well so far hasnt it?

I kinda also blame the parents for sticking to the ghettos that the Banlieux have become in the past 30 years since full employment melted away and not moving their French kids to where integration would have been easier .

Thats the problem with socialism. Those people have been made utterly dependant on the state, a state that basically pays them to stay away and not to cause trouble. The protectionist social model keeps them unemployed, and they live where theyre told to live basically because they are a number on a long list in a bureacrats office and they dont get an awful lot of choice. You can see how such a system builds up self respect, cant you?