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Percolation Tests

tinofapples

Should an Engineer carry out percolation tests straight away after the trial holes are dug ? Is it normal practice for them to do it as soon as the holes are there ?

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tinofapples

The reason I ask is that our Engineer seems to have allowed time for our trial holes to fill with rainwater not once but twice .

To say we are both really pi$$ed off now would be an understatement. Our 1st application went in on the 22nd December 2004. It was submitted minus the results which he explained would follow in a few days. A week before our decision was due he told me he was asking for an extension of time by a month. He also mentioned something about getting a proposal for some treatment system. In the end the application had to be withdrawn befor it was refused. He has since lodged a new application but once again with no results from the tests. He can't carry out the tests right now cause the bigger hole is like a swimming pool (For ducks anyway). I met him on the road last week and he mentioned the same sh!te about a proposal for some treatment system.

I am expecting the same thing to happen again and will not be one be happy with that. I know the guy so don't wanna get thick with him but my patience is wearing thin. VERY THIN.

I'm considering telling him to f%$k off if this application has to be withdrawn again.

Any thoughts on any of the above ?

We had thought about self build but after reading the post re Direct Labour I think we'll have to reconsider , too much risk of similar sh1te to this happening again providing of course we ever get PP .

Macy

I'd say this is bullshít tbh. Don't think there was any time delay for us - bar getting the holes dug, and him being available to come out. If anything, he should be trying to get the tests done before it fills with water.

Has he got the EPA qualification? It'll cost you to get it done by someone with this qualification, but basically there'd be no issue over the results of the test with the planners since it's the recognised qualification. Could be a handy way of getting rid, without it being personal.

Would be fairly standard to go in with a treatment system rather than an old style septic tank I would've thought. Something like a Biocycle....

rooferPete

Hi,

As I recall the hole is dug down about two metres and then left for 24 > 48 hours, the purpose is to establish the true level of the water table in your area.

It may be possible that your test has failed and the engineer can't sign off on a standard percolation area without the risk of the local authority or even you taking legal action in the event that you end up with a contaminated site.

Perhaps that is why he is looking at alternative treatment systems, the planners are not fools and will know the general level of the water table for your area, in fact they may have had planning applications to update unsuitable systems in your area.

Maybe it's time for a little straight talking, especially as this is a professional service which I presume you are paying for.

Macy

rooferPete wrote:

Hi,

As I recall the hole is dug down about two metres and then left for 24 > 48 hours, the purpose is to establish the true level of the water table in your area.

A few days maybe - weeks no way.

Bottom line, as I said, whoever signs off should have the EPA Qualification - as there's no arguing with that by the planners. If the water table is high, it's not that hard to solve - raised percolation bed is the most simple solution. Like I said, I would expect a treatment system to be standard these days, but no excuse if this is the second application and he still hasn't done this - christ you could download the spec off the web.

Something we learnt very early in the process, don't involve "mates" where there's cash involved. Bound to end in some sourness....

tinofapples

Has he got the EPA qualification?

He's got BE,M.IEI so that's not an issue , I think. This is the reason I am so peed off , he should know what he's doing.

It may be possible that your test has failed and the engineer can't sign off on a standard percolation area without the risk of the local authority or even you taking legal action in the event that you end up with a contaminated site

I think I recall him stating awhile back that he wouldn't sign off on something that will come back to haunt us in the future. Is there an alternative for people who's site water table is too high for some one to conduct these tests or can the process not be advanced unless these tests are done ?

Perhaps that is why he is looking at alternative treatment systems, the planners are not fools and will know the general level of the water table for your area, in fact they may have had planning applications to update unsuitable systems in your area

Surely he should know by now what treatment system he needs. This is the second time he has come up with the line re: looking at proposals for treatment systems.

Maybe it's time for a little straight talking, especially as this is a professional service which I presume you are paying for.

Absolutely , i think we'll ghave to sit down at the w/end.

but no excuse if this is the second application and he still hasn't done this

I'm in total agreement with ya on that.

Something we learnt very early in the process, don't involve "mates" where there's cash involved. Bound to end in some sourness....

He's not what I would descibe as a mate, his sister went to school with my missus. He was recommended to us by an local architect whom we had approached to do the work but due to a back illness couldn't commit to the job.

tinofapples

My apologies , many thanks for your opinion's.

YAPP

tin

Your engineer has a degree and is a member of a recognised engineering umbrella group from what you tell us. There is no 'EPA Qualification';
to carry out a percolation test you must (1) hold a relevant qualification
(2) be idemnified (by a registered insurer) and (3) conform to the local
authoritys development plan with respect to domestic waste treatment
in the area.

Actually it is not standard to specify a treatment unit, this is a common missunderstanding at the moment; the results of the Perc Test will identify a safe method of waste disposal, from A Settlement Septic Tank with Baffle wall up to a Waste Water treatment Unit (WWTU).

The National Standards Authority if Ireland (NSAI) govern systems being
fitted in Ireland at the moment, and there guidelines are either (a) SR6 Septic tank design and use and/or (b) EPA Guidelines for domestic waste disposal 2000 edition.

IF the Trial Hole has filled up, well hey, doesnt that say something to you.
Obviously your site is not suitable for a Septic Tank.

WWTU manufacturers/resellers will normally carry out a site suitability survey for you, and so perhaps this is what your engineer is trying to explain to you!

Give your engineer the benifit of the doubt for a set period, explain to him that you need to make a dscision by a determined deadline and if no joy at that point make other arrangements. After all this engineer has his qualification for a reason apparently.

YAPP
_______________
a hasty decision now may cost you in the future

tinofapples

Thanks for the reply YAPP

Give your engineer the benifit of the doubt for a set period, explain to him that you need to make a dscision by a determined deadline and if no joy at that point make other arrangements.

I have been patient with him up till now but will have to think about making other arrangements if the current application is not successful. We are getting married next June so we had hoped to have the house well finished by then.

Macy

YAPP wrote:

Your engineer has a degree and is a member of a recognised engineering umbrella group from what you tell us. There is no 'EPA Qualification';

There is actually, well it's FAS in conjunction with the EPA amongst others. Yes, an engineer doesn't need to have taken the course, but basically there is no arguement with the results, by the local authority. Personally I'd rather get an engineer with the qualification than one without it...

Water and Waste Water Treatment Plant Operation
Eight days
Course Modules
Water treatment
Wastewater treatment
Plant Maintenance
Distribution systems
Safety, Health and Welfare
Quality Systems
This modular training programme is aimed at Local Authority Water & Wastewater Plant Operational personnel.

The training programme addresses the requirements of National and E.U Legislation in the area of Environmental Protection e.g., E.U. Drinking Water & Urban Wastewater Directives, and Safety, Health & Welfare legislation.

The Training courseware is flexible in structure and provides for competency-based certification for Water & Wastewater Plant Operational personnel.

The development of the programme was a collaborative process by FÁS in conjunction with Tipperary N.R. Co. Co. (acting on behalf of all Local Authorities), the EPA, and DoE&LG. The development of the programme was funded by FÁS.

The courseware includes CD-ROM disks, 35mm slides, OHPS, and Tutor and Trainee manuals.

Target Group
Water & Wastewater Plant Operational staff employed in Local Authorities., Engineers, Technicians, Craftspersons, Operatives etc.

Further Details

tinofapples

I had the Engineer on the phone last night. He told me he had been in touch with some guy in relation to getting a proposal for a Puraflo BnM Treatment system.

He mentioned we might need to shore the area around the holes to allow the water there to run out and into a drain which runs at the back of the site.

Any idea how long shoring takes ? I'm thinking about using a pump myself at the w/end to drain the f%$%in hole.

yop

My "experience" with Percolation testing. Your engineer could be of the same thinking!

Mate of mine, an engineer (does not work for himself though so not insured) and myself did the percolation tests. We filled in form, submitted to Planning.

Got letter back to inform us that the percolation tests had to be carried out by engineer with Indemnity insurance. Fek

So started ringing around. Same name kept popping up. So rang Mr X, said no bother 250 if you have hole dug, 500 if not. Said grand bang away.

Was told by neighbour of site that guy arrived, sat in car for 20 minute then drove off.

Got call from Engineer who said he did tests and that it was poor ground. That we neeed a treatment system. Found it strange.
I checked the fencing around the trial holes and it was not moved so he could not have gone near it!

So the T-Values he gave me were twice what my engineer and I have got on our tests!

He talked away and I asked him which one he recommend. He mentioned X, Y, Z then commented that X was best. He said it would cost this and that, I was not happy but what could I do!
Then at end of phone call he mentioned that he could get a reduction on X as he was a reseller for them !!!!! imagine my shock!

Anyway had to go with it, sent in his tests, got our planning, shock horror no treatment system required by planners, standard septic tank!

I am just cynical as regards these guys!

tinofapples

I am just cynical as regards these guys!

I understand that.

At what stage are ye now ? What treatment system did you get ? I asked my Engineer how much this would cost , he said probably about 3k. WHen I checked BnM web site today it states :

A standard single house Puraflo Intermittent Peat Filter system sells for €3947.14 + VAT at 13.5% including delivery and installation. This compares very favourably to other systems when installation, site preparation, delivery and maintenance costs are all included.

That sure as hell isn't about 3k

yop

No the PuralFlo system is that and you also need a septic tank as far as I remember,

Only putting in raft next week, loooooonnnnggg way off septic tank yet!

tinofapples

I met with my Engineer and the guy doing the proposal for the PuraFLo on Friday evening at the site.

He told me we would have to shore the percolation area to drain the water from the area. My engineer estimated this to cost 2-3000.

The Puraflo guy said he had a similar case coming up for decision next week the 10th May so we're gonna wait and see what happens there before we go spending any money.

KoNiT

So started ringing around. Same name kept popping up. So rang Mr X, said no bother 250 if you have hole dug, 500 if not. Said grand bang away.

Yop - You should report him to the Mayo Co. Co.

My Da carries out Perc tests & planning permissions, he's a retired Engineer who cann't retire, if you know what I mean. I CAD out the drawings from the customer requirements & he fills the forms.

I cannt abide by people who won't do their job, not the first time I hear of this. Especially as he charged 250 for it.... I told Da, his price just went up. but no way near €250, and he gets out of the car...