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Poor Road Markings and Safety

BrianD3

There was a programme on ITV this evening about road design and condition contributing to accidents in the UK. Poor/worn road markings were mentioned as one contributory factor.

Have been thinking about this myself lately. Take a typical Irish crash - young male out driving on a saturday night crashes his car into a ditch on a country road. One thing that I think would help in these scenarios is to clearly define the edge of the road with a broken yellow line, catseyes and a well maintained verge. These make it easier to judge and negotiate bends and are especially helpful if the driver is inexperienced and/or is unfamilar with the road.

Also, ever notice how when meeting oncoming traffic at night it can be difficult to see where the edge of the road starts and the ditch begins. All you see at the edge of the road is a kind of mucky no mans land which gives no grip and may have some nasty potholes thrown in for good measure.

I reckon that if every national secondary and regional road in the country had proper road markings, night time fatalities would be reduced. Oh and attention should be paid to the centre white line as well - in many cases the lines are worn which reduces visibility. Plus there are broken white lines in places where there should be continuous lines and vice versa.

The current road safety strategy which seems to revolve around the gardai doing speed checks on urban dual carriegways and moronic slogans like "check the signs, check your speed" clearly isn't working. A different approach is needed IMO - lets start with some yellow paint and catseyes.

BrianD3

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DubTony

I watched the programme tonight and it made me think of a crash my sister-in-law was involved in recently.

She was travelling along a country road at approx. 40 mph in a line of traffic. (A road she has driven regularly for the last 5 years). The car hit something on the left and careered across the road into oncoming traffic. Fortunately both she and the oncoming driver reacted quickly and had slowed enough to prevent serious injury. The insurance company did write off her car though (Lexus RX300).

It seems she actually drove onto the "ditch" and hit a large rock. The front passenger side wheel of the car was pushed into the footwell (there was no passenger, thankfully) and the car went out of control.

Had there been a yellow line or broken lines I have no doubt that the accident wouldn't have happened. Added to that, a system of good road maintenance, where the rock would have been spotted and removed, and this accident might never have happened.

Tony

Lafortezza

BrianD3 wrote:

Take a typical Irish crash - young male out driving on a saturday night crashes his car into a ditch on a country road.
BrianD3

While agree that country roads need better lighting/marking/cat's eyes, I'd say the main cause of this kind of crash is the driver himself.
I've a friend from Donegal who's working as a Garda in Monaghan at the moment and from what he tells me a large proportion of these kinds of accidents are from speeding, drink-driving and impressing mate/girfriend and less from bad road conditions and a lack of signage and painted lines.

Silvera

I too saw the programme tonight, BrianD3.

I would agree 100% with your comments above.

Poor road design is literally NEVER looked at in Ireland as a cause of accidents.

Compare this to Sweden where road design is part-and-parcel of every road accident investigation !

It's just so ease for the 'powers-that-be' to blame every accident on "driver behaviour".

Silvera.

Yes I agree. More could be done.

This I feel is an even greater problem in the UK as not all primary roads have a white line marking the verge. This in contrast to broken yellow lines on all of Ireland's national routes.

A number of changes I feel should be enacted. Although regional roads don't have their verges marked, dangerous stretches at the very least could be given the broken line treatment. As for national routes, where their is no verge to pull in onto a solid line should mark the road side - emphasising the increased danger.

Two other things that might be considered are a change to all white markings on rural roads and greater use of kerbs. White provides for a greater contrast with dark tarmac - especially at night - and so would be more easily seen. Kerbs are used quite extensively across the UK providing a clear demarcation line that might do enough to stop a wheel going further into the ditch. They also have the added bonus of reducing the erosion of the carriage way when cars do pull in.

murphaph

Do we use some sort of emulsion for our road markings-the all seem to wash away in no time. The paint and method of application is definately different in Germany. I've looked closely at this before and it appears that the line markings sit in an indentation in the asphalt, like they press a stamp down a few mils and then pour paint in. I like the fact that we use yellow at the verges, it's good to distinguish the margin like that. Many of our national routes are so filth that the catseyes are bunged up with sh*t and can't be seen, same goes for the verge markings. An oul roadsweeper wouldn't go amiss for starters, though that emulsion might come off :eek:

seamus

murphaph wrote:

Do we use some sort of emulsion for our road markings-the all seem to wash away in no time. The paint and method of application is definately different in Germany. I've looked closely at this before and it appears that the line markings sit in an indentation in the asphalt, like they press a stamp down a few mils and then pour paint in.

I like this idea, but not in Ireland at the moment. Unless there's meticulous maintenance of such markings, it could become hazardous for motorcyclists and cyclists. Road markings are already an official hazard for motorcyclists (they're slippy and raised from the ground), but I'd prefer to have a small bump in the road rather than a small hole in the road on a corner - which is what would happen in typical Ireland when the markings weren't maintained.

*Correction to my earlier post*

Although regional roads...

Should read - Although non regional roads...

BrianD

Unfortunately, no amount of road signs and road markings is going to stop the "young male weekend death" toll. Many of the deaths take place on R roads and country lanes. It would be simply be impossible and too expensive to implememt cat's eyes and road markings etc. They only way to stop these deaths is for the driver to drive at 80km/h and/or less and sober.

However, we continue to tolerate these deaths with news reports saying "...the roads have claimed another life" etc. When will it end? I think the authorities need to bluntly state that Mr. Joe Bloggs killed himself by driving at speed while drunk. This should be published in the local newspapers. Harsh on the family but we need to hit home on this subject. Perhaps it might make some parents not give their son their car on a night out. These deaths are entirely preventable.

I do agree that the standard of road markings and signage is awful. In urban areas the lack of overhead signage and lane markings contributes to delays, road range and probably more than a few prangs. It also gives leeway to drivers to try "cheeky" manoeversIn faster areas, it must be a contributory factor to road accidents and stress levels leading to more aggressive driving. It would also be nice if they used paint that lasted more than a few weeks!

BrianD3

BrianD, of course it is ultimately bad driving that causes accidents, not poor roads. However as was stated in the ITV programme, drivers are human and make mistakes and errors of judgement. Road design should take account of this and should be forgiving of small mistakes. Eg if someone puts one wheel 6 inches off the road surface on a country road because he 's temporarily blinded by oncoming traffic, he shouldn't pay for it with his life.

They only way to stop these deaths is for the driver to drive at 80km/h and/or less and sober

This is exactly the kind of simplistic message that the government keep peddling. Of course speed and drinking are a contributory factors in accidents but they are far from the only factor. For instance, I guarantee you that if the government did the following there would be a decrease in road deaths at weekends.
a) better, more forgiving road design as already mentioned
b) more mobile unmarked garda patrols on country roads late at night specifically targetting dangerous/erratic driving, dangerous overtaking etc.

These would be in addition to enforcement of speed limits and drink driving of course.

BrianD3

magpie

Will Phantom be reporting road deaths in the manner you suggest? "Another young male driver, probably drunk and possibly listening to heavy metal has killed himself through his own stupidity. Phantom says support the government, go metric and it's all your fault anway. Now for some Bachman Turner Overdrive"

Didn't think so, as you'll be relying on advertisers trying to sell mobiles/trainers/concert tickets to exactly the people you despise so much.

These deaths are entirely preventable.

Couldn't agree more. If the government spent less time and money trying to shift blame onto road users and diverted this into creating safer roads it would be a good start. But clearly there are plenty of people happy to be spoonfed their spin, and believe it.

Alun

BrianD wrote:

They only way to stop these deaths is for the driver to drive at 80km/h and/or less and sober.

I can't disagree with you on the 'sober' bit of the above, but remember that only a few weeks ago the same driver could have driven perfectly legally, albeit not necessarily safely, at approximately 100km/h on exactly the same stretch of road. These same drivers whose cars magically make contact with trees or fall into ditches at 3am on a Sunday morning will continue to do so whether driving at 80km/h or 100km/h.

BrianD3

MT wrote:

*Correction to my earlier post*

Should read - Although non regional roads...

But your original post was correct - regional roads often don't have marked verges either. I have driven on 3 of these roads just today where all there was separating the ditch from the road was a big mess of muck, debris, potholes, stones. Not only does this make the road horrible to drive on at night, it also means that drivers (understandably) tend to drive in the middle of the road avoiding the sh1t and then when two cars meet there's a big panic as both swerve back to their own side of the road.

Some national secondary roads are not a whole lot better.

Bizarrely, lots of 3rd class roads (yellow line on maps) have better verges than regional roads. I assume this is due to less traffic which result in less pulling in so the verge doesn't get cut up as much.

The state of the verges in this country - I find that verges seem to be far better looked after in NI.

BrianD3

BrianD

magpie wrote:

Will Phantom be reporting road deaths in the manner you suggest? "Another young male driver, probably drunk and possibly listening to heavy metal has killed himself through his own stupidity. Phantom says support the government, go metric and it's all your fault anway. Now for some Bachman Turner Overdrive"

Didn't think so, as you'll be relying on advertisers trying to sell mobiles/trainers/concert tickets to exactly the people you despise so much.

No magpie, I'd imagine that we would be reporting them as collisions or incidents and not accidents. Furthermore, if you read my post it was not for the media to state that they were drunk or driving at speed but for the authorities to do so and the media can report it them. I don't exactly follow what you mean by the last line in the quote. I've been metric for years and I don't see the connection between it and supporting the Government.

You obviously have a difficulty with personal responsibility. Who's fault is it if you drive at excessive speed while drunk at 4am and kill yourself. Yours and yours alone. No white lines or cats eyes will prevent that. Furthermore, I don't despise anybody but I have very little respect for those who blatantly break the speed limit. Why? Because in 90% of cases the speed limit is set correctly for the safety of all and in the other 10% it causes little or no inconvenience or time delay.

Brian D3, the simplistic message is in fact correct. It is not simplistic as you try and suggest. Even with a widespread distribution of Garda check points it would be impossible to catch these guys though it would help. Ireland has one of the largest road networks in Europe.and many of them are sub standard R or L roads. It would be simplt too expensive to re-engineer these roads. The only solution is speed control. Sure it doesn't seem to make sense that one day 100 k is fine and the next day 80 k is the max. These are maximum speeds and does not mean that it is appropriate to travel on R/L roads at these speeds.

Clearly, widespread Garda activity can make some head way but is a mammoth task and it is not possible to re-engineer all R and L roads. The only way is education and also shock tactics and being honest about the situation may work.

magpie

Who's fault is it if you drive at excessive speed while drunk at 4am and kill yourself.

Which is clearly the cause of all accidents in Ireland. Not substandard roads.

mike65

Guys this is a good topic so lets get back on it!

Mike.

Silvera

Lack of Right-turning lanes (also called 'waiting lanes') is often overlooked as a major contributor to accidents.

I know of one place on the Carlow to Dublin road where there has been many accidents because there is no right-turning lane.

Also, near a church (on same road), heading south, the council have recently put yellow hatch lines on the road as you approach the bend.
However, a sign reading 'Caution - Expect Stationary Vehicles Ahead' wouldn't go astray in this case (and many similar cases) !

BTW, have you guys noticed that many side road entrances in Kildare and Carlow now have green and silver bollards to make them more visable at night - great idea !

The old airport road has some bad road markings
coming from the airport at coolock lane, if you are *not* in the bus lane you will find yourself on the right turn to santry avenue. The right turn to the omni could be better constructed as well.
jd

Victor

murphaph wrote:

Do we use some sort of emulsion for our road markings-the all seem to wash away in no time.

The quality control for both the paint used, and surface preparation beforehand has been a recent issue, although I understand that the councils have copped on to contractors using non-reflective paint (it should have little reflective flecks in it).

Victor

BrianD3 wrote:

The state of the verges in this country - I find that verges seem to be far better looked after in NI.

Anti-roadside bomb measure. :eek:

MrPudding

Silvera wrote:

Lack of Right-turning lanes (also called 'waiting lanes') is often overlooked as a major contributor to accidents.

I like the way they do it in France, even on small roads. They do not have lanes to turn left of the main road. They have a slip road off the main road to the right. This loops round and brings you perpendicular to the main road you just left. You then need to cross both lanes. Crossing both lanes can be a bit difficult if the road is busy but you do not have someone sitting in the middle of the road waiting to get rear ended at high speed.

Victor wrote:

Anti-roadside bomb measure. :eek:

Exactly, hard to hide a culvert bomb in imacculately trimed verges.

MrP