Experts to help civil servants with rural relocation DECENTRALISING civil servants are to be assisted in their move from the capital with advice on the local property market, the best creches available, and how their spouses can get a job in their new home towns. The Department of Finance has just advertised for the supply of "support services" for the 9,000 staff relocating under the Government's decentralisation plan. The advertisement on the Government website asks for expressions of interest to be sent in for auctioneering, legal, relocation, and other services to "support and assist staff relocating" to any of the 53 locations around the country. A spokesman for the Department explained yesterday that the advertisement had been placed as a result of a proposal from the top level Decentralisation Implementation Group, headed by Phil Flynn, to oversee the process of decentralisation. In a report last March the Group said that those moving would need advice on the sale or letting of their homes in Dublin and help to identify a suitable home in their new locations, as well as securing places in local schools and creches. It also proposed offering assistance in introducing the civil and public servants to the recreational activities offered in their new local communities such as sports clubs. Another proposal is to have a placement service for the spouses or partners of those relocating to find a suitable position in or near their new location. Meanwhile, Bus Éireann staff protested in Dublin yesterday to highlight the cost to their pension scheme of civil servants taking up posts in the new decentralised Bus Éireann offices in Cork, writes Gerald Flynn. The semi-state pension fund is already €73m in deficit and 10 civil servants to join would add up to €5m in additional liabilities according to the Transport Salaried Staff Association (TSSA) union. Civil servants with non-contributory pensions who transfer into Bus Éireann must join CIÉ's superannuation scheme but there is no provision for contributions for past service to transfer. "It is conservatively estimated that this will cost €500,000 per person per transfer," said TSSA official Colm Jordan. "We want to know where will this money come from and what will be the effect on the 1951 CIÉ superannuation scheme if it is to take the full liability of past service on board with no corresponding contribution." "Our pensions are at risk and we need answers," said Roger Hannon, TSSA Irish secretary. Alison O'Connor Political Correspondent
First wave of 4,000 civil servants on 'move' alert ANXIOUS ministers are poised to push through vastly scaled-down decentralisation plans before the Budget to avoid a damaging political backlash. They will rubber-stamp a report on the departments that should move first. That will spark the first wave of 4,000 civil servants and between 15 and 20 government departments and state agencies to new locations within two years. Ministers are desperate to sign off on the details before the Budget to minimise the political fallout from the considerably scaled-down version of the plan unveiled a year ago. In his final Budget last year, then Finance Minister Charlie McCreevy announced plans for 10,000 public and civil servants to move to 53 locations outside of Dublin. For several months former trade union leader Phil Flynn worked to devise a schedule for decentralisation. He has taken into account the numbers interested in moving and the range of properties available to the state to accommodate transfers outside Dublin. Mr Flynn will finalise his plans later this week and will present his recommendations to the Cabinet sub-committee dealing with decentralisation. His report will outline the government departments most ready to move. The Government expects he will suggest a series of phased moves involving a core group of government departments, possibly three or four, and anything up to 15 state agencies and sections of government departments. The most popular departments and agencies under the central applications facility were nearest Dublin. Mr Flynn's report is understood to recommend that the Government start decentralising those departments first as they are most sought after. Junior Finance Minister Tom Parlon - who is in charge of the project - said last night there had been "intense negotiations" in the last couple of days between agencies, departments, the OPW and the implementation group. "I would expect up to 20 departments and agencies, more departments than agencies, to be on the list." Others understood to be on the list are the departments of Social and Family Affairs and Communications, which will see 603 civil servants move to Drogheda. The first batch is also expected to include the Department of Defence, with 199 posts moving to Newbridge, the Revenue Commissioners, with 629 jobs going to Athy and Kildare town, the OPW with 328 staff to Trim in Co Meath, and the Prison Service, with 158 jobs going to Longford and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment with 312 posts going to Carlow. Tom Felle and Brian Dowling
gazzer wrote: There are going to be a lot of people (who remain in Dublin) sitting at desks twiddling their thumbs with nothing to do. I know a lot of you will probably say that is what we do anyway but i definately dont want to end up like that. I am genuinely scared for where i am going to end up when the move to Kildare takes place
gazzer wrote: There are going to be a lot of people (who remain in Dublin) sitting at desks twiddling their thumbs with nothing to do.
bonkey wrote: Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't this basically an admission that the Civil Service is overstaffed? If so, then - given that you can't fire people - the only way to reduce staff numbers is through attrition...and in order to pave the way for that, you need to create "redundant" positions...positions that last only until the current person in it leaves (cause you can't fire them). Like I said...maybe I'm missing something, but thats how this is beginning to read to me. jc
bonkey wrote: Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't this basically an admission that the Civil Service is overstaffed?
gazzer wrote: The general take up of positions was low. In fact a lot of Civil Servants applied for areas outside Dublin in panic more than anything else. These idiots only served to inflate the numbers to a reasonable level.
Some buildings are been vacanted to allow the government to convert the ideally situated properties into apartments for TD's to use.
The buildings outside of Dublin that the Depts are moving to will be generally owed by TDs themselves or associates of TDs hence somebody makes a lot of money from leasing out these buildings.
gazzer wrote: Hope i explaned that correctly to you.
gazzer wrote: That could cause a problem Pete depending on where the office is, however as far as i know you cant be sent to a department/section that is more than 15 miles away from the office you are being moved from.
I would love to be moved to the revenue offices that are on the Navan Road (beside the halfway house) but as far as i know there are no IT posts going there and as i am based in the city centre at the moment i could be sent up to 15 miles away in any direction. So if i was to be sent to somwhere out on the southside it would really increase my commuting time. Like you Pete i have around an 70 - 80 minute commute each way at the moment
The PSEU Representative reminded the meeting that there was a number of other issues still to be finalised, as follows : i) Staff on Allowances including the Revenue APTH, ii) Staff ‘acting’ on higher duties iii) Staff required to re-locate to Dublin in order to train before going to their location of choice iv) The Dublin CAF arrangements. It was noted that there were significant rumours about possible IT out-sourcing and some clarity on this was sought also. 9. In response to some of these issues, the Official Side stated, as follows : i) Their position is that allowances that are personal to holders, including higher scales and Revenue APTHs can be retained if the Staff Side is agreeable. However, the CPSU had yet to confirm its agreement. With regard to allowances related to work, their position is that unless the person continues doing the work even if their posts are re-located, they will cease to be paid the relevant allowances, while recognising that claims for loss of earnings can be processed through the C&A machinery. Re 8 (iv) above, they said that the arrangements for a Dublin CAF would be set out in their out in their paper for the next meeting. They agreed to consider the other matters again.
The Dublin region will experience a spending reduction of at least €500 million to €600 million per annum as a result of decentralisation, according to Dr Brendan Williams, a lecturer in urban economics at the Dublin Institute of Technology. Williams told the annual conference of the Society of Chartered Surveyors (SCS) last Friday that this would be the effect of moving public service jobs out of the capital city. "The expected boost that such relocations will confer on selected areas have been widely publicised in the regions, while debate as to the potential negative impact of the initiatives on the economic base of the Dublin area has to date been minimal," he said. "Based upon government figures, the effect of the loss of such jobs would in isolation represent a reduction of spending capacity in the Dublin region of €500 million to €600 million per annum." Such a loss would have serious impact on retail spending in the capital city.
BolBill wrote: 1. All IT jobs will be out sourced to contract, meaning that the government will be spending at least 3 times more on IT wages than at present.
4. Some buildings are been vacanted to allow the government to convert the ideally situated properties into apartments for TD's to use. 5. The buildings outside of Dublin that the Depts are moving to will be generally owed by TDs themselves or associates of TDs hence somebody makes a lot of money from leasing out these buildings.
uncivilservant wrote: Is the penny starting to drop? Taken from an article in The Sunday Business Post, 7th November - http://www.thepost.ie/web/DocumentView/did-739495766-pageUrl--2FThe-Newspaper-2FSundays-Paper-2FProperty.asp
Victor wrote: How many people in IT get "wages"
NewDubliner wrote: If, when it produces its next report, the puppet Flynn commission decides to proceed with stripping all IT work from Dublin, I think it will be a very deliberate act, intended to remove CS workers from IT and setting the scene for out-sourcing & lucrative contracts for the private sector.
SkepticOne wrote: You would think they would appreciate the skills of their own staff more. Apparently not though.
smccarrick wrote: Some departments (aka the entire cs) have a deliberate policy of not wanting to know what the skills of their staff are, along with apparent policies of attempting to place people in roles where they cannot make use of their skills and qualifications. This extends to Personnel departments refusing to keep copies of curriculum vitaes on people's personnel files.
SkepticOne wrote: So what is the great attraction to this employer who doesn't appreciate the staff's skills and moves them around the country without consultation? Great money, pension etc? Is it not a case of take the rough with the smooth, strike or walk out?
Victor wrote: I imagine this piece eminated from among the Dublin estate agents in the SCS, worried at property prices.
In reality, the diverted business will be small in terms of Dublin's economy and will be less than a year's growth.
uncivilservant wrote: Victor, "this piece Half a billion euro a year is a lot of money, regardless of how you cut it. Other sources have put the figure at closer to 1 billion, if i remember correctly.
SkepticOne wrote: Is it not a case of take the rough with the smooth, strike or walk out?
uncivilservant wrote: Half a billion euro a year is a lot of money, regardless of how you cut it. Other sources have put the figure at closer to 1 billion, if i remember correctly.
uncivilservant wrote: In the civil service there's a big, big difference between the "employer" and "the manager". Also, the key word in the quoted paragraph is "apparent". It's not deliberate, it's a result of "general" recruitment policies. Dear lord, don't let it be deliberate....
SkepticOne wrote: I think it is up to staff to take appropriate action either on an individual or collective basis. Problems of this sort are not unique to the civil service.
smccarrick wrote: The normal means of resolving industrial relations matters are not open to civil servants- something a lot of people are very unaware of- we do not have access to the Labour Relations Commission / Labour Courts - we are totally at the whim of political expediency. This is something that the public quite simply is unaware of, as no-one is interested in enlightening them.......
SkepticOne wrote: Everyone has had difficulties with employers and has had to handle the situation in some way or other. When demands are made that are unacceptable, then it is up to individuals to decide whether it is worth going along with it (say, because pay, pension, benefits or whatever is good) or not going along with it.
SkepticOne wrote: NewDubliner was suggesting that it was deliberate: "If, when it produces its next report, the puppet Flynn commission decides to proceed with stripping all IT work from Dublin, I think it will be a very deliberate act, intended to remove CS workers from IT and setting the scene for out-sourcing & lucrative contracts for the private sector" and it was this that I was responding to.
If so (and even if it is simple management incompetence), I think it is up to staff to take appropriate action either on an individual or collective basis. Problems of this sort are not unique to the civil service.
uncivilservant wrote: My apologies - i had assumed you were responding to the person you had quoted. I believe smccarrick was speaking of the generality of the situation, whereas NewDubliner was stating a (commonly held) belief that decentralisation is being used as a method to introduce widespread outsourcing of IT by the back door. Agreed. But as another poster has pointed out, the unions are taking a somewhat passive role in this affair.
