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Decentralisation

uncivilservant

As a dublin civil servant, i'm sure most people can guess what my attitude is to the current implementation of mass decentralisation. But i'd be interested to hear what others think.

Good thing? Bad thing? Quit your whining and be happy you have a job?

Anyone?

Mods: I had considered posting this to B/E/F rather than Politics, but to be honest i'm not sure which board it suits more. PI probably ha.

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The_Conductor

Or- S. was instructed to tailor the divisions work plan into a neatly packaged role profile for himself. He was specifically ordered not to mention new areas of work that he inherited from other sections, or the work that he is now doing because the other 2 EOs in the section are on career breaks. When he queried why the role profile bore no resemblence whatsoever to his job, he was told- "because its what everyone else is doing, we need it for benchmarking, you are not paid to be different". No, maybe not, but we are all paid to do jobs. Like to see someone sit down in my chair and try to figure out what I was doing without suffering heartfailure.

S.

The_Conductor

parsi wrote:

You forgot to mention that in many departments they are becoming an anachronism being replaced by EOs.

Regarding the earlier comments about being "generalists" this is quite true. I work in IT but started off in a Line section. Theroretically I could go back there on Monday. If I transferred to another Department I could end up anywhere without heed to my qualifications and experience..it's the way of the service..

This was actually a smart move on the part of Personnel managers. The new guidelines are that all EO recruitment going forward, is to be strictly graduate recruitment. What this means is the AO grade is effectively being phased out, in favour of the low cost EOs. However, it also means that incompetent low skilled imbeciles who were promoted to EO solely through seniority- having their arses ploked on a seat for X number of years, will have to fight a lot harder to justify their existence. And rather laughably- as EOs, they no longer have Blair Horan and friends in the CPSU to fight their matches for them- they are now stuck with the PSEU. Hah!

S.

Cork

This PMDS thing seems flakey. Would a good supervisor be an effective alternative to PMDS.

I worked in the state sector for a while in a tiny department. I was the only person in the department not to be sent on training courses & when I used to ask my supervisor for direction - the response that I used get was "what do you think yourself?". I think the plave was very grade concious & saw me as a threat.

Any criticisms that I used get were completely OTT. I went and talked to personnel & they reccommended that I get a transfer out of there. They transferred me into a pen pushing job that did not make use of any of my skills.

My point being that PMDS sounds ok but you don't see such fluff in the private sector. Money that is being spend on PMDS should be spend on consulting staff who are the ones that are more in tune in what is happening within these very same organisations.

lucernarian

Could we get back to the topic? I still feel that there are benefits to Decentralisation but I cannot see it being implemented successfully if civil servants are opposed to it.

The_Conductor

Ok- back on topic- I filled out my decentralisation form and left all the items blank, with a note at the bottom stating that I had no interest in decentralising, that I was only filling out the form at all under duress.
This morning (Saturday....) the Civil Service Commission rang me, querying my lack of enthusiasm (obviously not too many others thought of playing mind games with them

)
In light of the fact that I "do not want to leave Dublin" I am now enrolled for Naas, Newbridge and Drogheda- as the guy on the phone put it- "sure, you're only hedging your options, when we offer you a place you don't have to take it, and you might know whats happening to the Dublin people who want to stay put a bit further down the road". He stated that all of them in there are doing likewise (as they don't want to go to Youghal).

So- I am now signed up for 3 different locations, in a total of 6 different government departments (including one that still hasn't confirmed its moving (Health and Children to Naas), despite the fact that I have no great enthusiasm for moving.

Yup- another number on Tom Parlon's roll call.......

uncivilservant

To_be_confirmed wrote:

Could we get back to the topic? I still feel that there are benefits to Decentralisation but I cannot see it being implemented successfully if civil servants are opposed to it.

Considering that literally thousands of individuals will be required to transfer between departments & be retrained in order to facilitate this relocation plan, I would think a discussion about personnel & development policies in the civil service is very, very much on topic.

uncivilservant

smccarrick wrote:

Ok- back on topic- I filled out my decentralisation form and left all the items blank, with a note at the bottom stating that I had no interest in decentralising, that I was only filling out the form at all under duress.
This morning (Saturday....) the Civil Service Commission rang me, querying my lack of enthusiasm (obviously not too many others thought of playing mind games with them )
In light of the fact that I "do not want to leave Dublin" I am now enrolled for Naas, Newbridge and Drogheda- as the guy on the phone put it- "sure, you're only hedging your options, when we offer you a place you don't have to take it, and you might know whats happening to the Dublin people who want to stay put a bit further down the road". He stated that all of them in there are doing likewise (as they don't want to go to Youghal).

So- I am now signed up for 3 different locations, in a total of 6 different government departments (including one that still hasn't confirmed its moving (Health and Children to Naas), despite the fact that I have no great enthusiasm for moving.

Yup- another number on Tom Parlon's roll call.......

let me get this straight - there are people working in the CSCLAC today, being paid saturday overtime, in order to drum up more numbers?

Good grief.

The_Conductor

Yup!
Wonderful isn't it (sarcasm dripping....)

S.

NewDubliner

Could we get back to the topic? I still feel that there are benefits to Decentralisation but I cannot see it being implemented successfully if civil servants are opposed to it.

I think we need to distinguish between the current scheme of public servant relocation and real decentralisation, properly planned and executed.

We also need to distinguish between opposition to decentralisation and staff making a personal, quality of life choice, not to relocate.

Discussion of PMDS and HR policy is quite relevant as malpractices in HR management will be amplified by the current scheme.

The costs and benefits of what is called 'decentralisation' have neither been clearly identified nor agreed. Mostly, the scheme is based on guesswork.

E.K.

Cork

NewDubliner wrote:

Discussion of PMDS and HR policy is quite relevant as malpractices in HR management will be amplified by the current scheme.

E.K.

But is PMDS just a load of mumbo jumbo buzz words. I know one department of state employees who work very hard in dire working conditions. They would do cart wheels for the public.

But I also know a department that does not deal with the public and don't work as hard.

Could you mask poor proformance under PMDS with waffle?

Before - someboby replies stating that what point am I making -

It is basically, Will PMDS be an accurarte measure? (My knowledge is not great about this - so I don't have the information to answer it myself)

The_Conductor

Cork wrote:

But is PMDS just a load of mumbo jumbo buzz words. I know one department of state employees who work very hard in dire working conditions. They would do cart wheels for the public.

But I also know a department that does not deal with the public and don't work as hard.

Could you mask poor proformance under PMDS with waffle?

Before - someboby replies stating that what point am I making -

It is basically, Will PMDS be an accurarte measure? (My knowledge is not great about this - so I don't have the information to answer it myself)

Its not that PMDS is a load of mumbo jumbo- its that as a process, it has become nought but another layer of bureaucracy in its own right. People are sent off on their PMDS courses, for the sole purpose of ticking off a name on a list. Sure, they learn better ways of doing things, and ways to keep a more coherent track of where they are at present and where they aspire to be in the future- along with a roadmap for getting from point a to point b.
Brilliant- they come out of their training session, armed with wonderful tools. But then realism strikes. They are back into a section where their "superior" officers are not interest in moving with the times, or changing for the better. Where innovation and initiative are stiffled- by dinosaurs behind desks whose sole roadmap and manner of thinking is precedent- if it happened previously, do whatever the last person did, if it hasn't happened previously, you certainly are not going to rock the apple cart. I am not exagerating- there are HEOs and higher, who refuse to use their computers, which adorn their desks like wonderful white elephants. While they do have a great respect for education- its more because they recognise that their underlings have actually gone to the trouble of educating themselves- keep in mind numerous of the higher ranking civil servants entered the service straight from school (the entry requirements, which were not particularly onerous, were an intercert with passes in Irish, Maths and English).

If some of these dinosaurs can be persuaded to take early retirement (which officially is not on the cards, as it has a measurable cost attached to it), it would allow younger, more enlightened people to take their places and perhaps modernise from the bottom upwards.

Keep in mind at all time- the civil service was always seen as a piggy bank the government could rely on to provide employment to the unemployed masses (particularly in bygone years). These hoards of people have no interest in upsetting the quid-pro-quo that exists.

While decentralisation- or an active dislike or lack of enthusiasm for decentralisation, could be seen as maintaining the quid-pro-quo, that is in itself a vast over simplification of decentralisation as offered by Mr. Parlon and buddies. Some decentralisation, over time, in a rational manner, to locations that are capable of supporting it, with reasonable negotiation will those concerned- would be an ideal, and dare I say intelligent manner of addressing decentralisation (and indeed is what was slowly happening over time- note the Department of Agriculture in Portlaoise, and parts of the GRO from Health and Children in Roscommon).

What has been foisted on people here, without any consultation whatsoever, is a blanket- agree to decentralise to (in order of your choice) or else the consequences will be (unspoken but believed to include an end to any possible career paths, possible lack of any meaningful work (yes, we do actually like to have something meaningful to do, you know), changes in work practices (to include parking etc). Essentially- if you don't agree to decentralise- we might shunt you off to the already bloated health boards, the county councils, or actually- you know what- we haven't really decided what we'll do with you.

In the context of entering the twilight zone- of the great unknown- possibly doomed to sitting at a desk without anything whatsoever to do (and please don't be so condescending to tell me of course that wouldn't happen.....) if we do not agree to decentralise- of course some people are going to be bullied into applying for decentralisation (the numbers applying for the locations peripheral to Dublin, bear this out in full).

Job security- pah! Career pathway- pah! Job for life- pah!

If we were cattle- compassion in farming would be demonstrating on our behalves.......

S.

Victor

uncivilservant wrote:

Or indeed from the website in my signature.

How come there are only 7212.5 jobs and 6,004 applications listed. I thought the figures were about 10,500 and 8,500 respectively? Assuming everyone applying is suited / accepted, this mean only about 3,808.9 matches exist. **AT MOST**

I see 380 applications are for jobs that don't exist "Grades which are not on the CAF".

I presume fractions apply where 1 jobs involves 2 functions etc.?

uncivilservant

Victor wrote:

How come there are only 7212.5 jobs and 6,004 applications listed. I thought the figures were about 10,500 and 8,500 respectively? Assuming everyone applying is suited / accepted, this mean only about 3,808.9 matches exist. **AT MOST**

Good question. Unfortunately, until such time as the Department of Finance get around to actually releasing these figures themselves, we're all in the dark on this one.

I see 380 applications are for jobs that don't exist "Grades which are not on the CAF".

I believe these are all specialised staff whose current jobs are staying put, but wish to transfer to a different location. Equivalences are normally worked out by comparing salaries, so hypothetically you could end up with a situation where in order to make up the numbers, a 'senior meterological officer' is relocated to a general service civil service grade, throwing away possibly years of education, training & on the job experience. Marvelous.

I presume fractions apply where 1 jobs involves 2 functions etc.?

Jobsharers, I'd imagine.

NewDubliner

Another discrepency: the original announcement showed that 500 Revenue IT jobs were to be taken away from Dublin. The official announcement for Kildare is for 380. http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=1897&CatID=48&StartDate=01+January+2003&m=

Does this mean that there will, after all, be some IT work available for people who live in Dublin? Or is there another announcement due for the remaining 120?

The Revenue computer centre is to be demolished so that Tom Parlon can sell the site. Hopefully they'll build a new computer centre & staff it first.....

The_Conductor

Victor wrote:

How come there are only 7212.5 jobs and 6,004 applications listed. I thought the figures were about 10,500 and 8,500 respectively? Assuming everyone applying is suited / accepted, this mean only about 3,808.9 matches exist. **AT MOST**

I see 380 applications are for jobs that don't exist "Grades which are not on the CAF".

I presume fractions apply where 1 jobs involves 2 functions etc.?

Several of the jobs to be decentralised have not been identified as yet, but people can apply for them nonetheless (albeit, not as a defined choice on their CAF application). For example- there are 300 jobs from the Department of Health and Children going to Naas- but they haven't figured out what jobs they are- so its not included on the CAF positions you can officially apply for (as yet). A few more enterprising folk are adding the likes of positions such as those to the box relocate to a location not on the above list (even if there are other relocations to the same location happening from other government departments).

Essentially its positions that have not as yet been identified.

It should be noted that when they do eventually identify the further positions, that the likelyhood of a fresh wave of people applying to take them is precisely nil.

S.

The_Conductor

NewDubliner wrote:

Another discrepency: the original announcement showed that 500 Revenue IT jobs were to be taken away from Dublin. The official announcement for Kildare is for 380. http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=1897&CatID=48&StartDate=01+January+2003&m=

Does this mean that there will, after all, be some IT work available for people who live in Dublin? Or is there another announcement due for the remaining 120?

The Revenue computer centre is to be demolished so that Tom Parlon can sell the site. Hopefully they'll build a new computer centre & staff it first.....

Nope: Reallocated to (among other things) Oasis etc. in Drogheda.

As for building a new centre and staffing it before they knock down the old one- why? Surely that would upset the plans to outsource the IT function (cough, cough!)

S.

NewDubliner

Surely that would upset the plans to outsource the IT function

They must be saving that idea for the next budget as it hasn't been announced.

Out-sourcing govt IT was tried in the UK & ended up costing more than ever and there were major failures once the out-sourcers started cutting corners to make more money.

That said, maybe they've identified a pool of cheap, talented IT people in Kildare & that's why they're relocating there.

ishmael whale

To_be_confirmed wrote:

Could we get back to the topic? I still feel that there are benefits to Decentralisation but I cannot see it being implemented successfully if civil servants are opposed to it.

I can see no benefits from the proposed decentralisation, only increased costs and long term diversion of resources away from far more necessary things. I am alarmed that the only brake on the process seems to be the opposition of civil servants, with the implication that if they had enough volunteers the programme would simply proceed and damn the consequences.

Can you indicate what significant benefits you see that justify the heavy costs involved?

The_Conductor

smccarrick wrote:

Nope: Reallocated to (among other things) Oasis etc. in Drogheda.

As for building a new centre and staffing it before they knock down the old one- why? Surely that would upset the plans to outsource the IT function (cough, cough!)

S.

My apologies-

ICT Department of Finance 374 to Kildare Town
ICT Revenue Commissioners 38 to Kildare Town
Total ICT Kildare Town 412 persons.

Shane

NewDubliner

smccarrick wrote:

My apologies-
ICT Department of Finance 374 to Kildare Town
ICT Revenue Commissioners 38 to Kildare Town
Total ICT Kildare Town 412 persons.
Shane

I think you mean the other way around? But the original announcement by McCreevey specifically stated 500 Revenue ICT for Kildare town. There's 126 missing.

It's possibly moot as published stats show that most of Revenue's ICT staff do not share the goverment's warm feelings for Kildare town.

E.K.

The_Conductor

NewDubliner wrote:

I think you mean the other way around? But the original announcement by McCreevey specifically stated 500 Revenue ICT for Kildare town. There's 126 missing.

It's possibly moot as published stats show that most of Revenue's ICT staff do not share the goverment's warm feelings for Kildare town.

E.K.

Will try to dig out the CAF update doing the rounds in here- it lists all the ICT positions (which were not on the original applications). Will post it up here if I get a chance (prob tomorrow).

S.

uncivilservant

Will try to dig out the CAF update doing the rounds in here- it lists all the ICT positions (which were not on the original applications). Will post it up here if I get a chance (prob tomorrow).

could you email a copy to admin AT uncivilservant.com, please?

uncivilservant

Some figures for any poor deluded souls that still think services will not suffer under decentralisation:

Just two staff from the probation service now say they will move to Navan – up from one.

The number of valuation office staff willing to move has trebled – from one to three, out of a staff of 99.

Just 26 workers from the Department of Environment, Heritage and Local Government say they will move to three proposed new locations – an increase of 12, but still less than five per cent of the staff.

No one in the Equality Authority or the Combat Poverty Agency has expressed an interest in a move to Roscrea or Monaghan.

Of 102 Irish Aviation Authority staff, only three now say they will move to Shannon.

Thirteen Comhairle workers are now considering relocating, after the Government changed its proposed new location from Carrickmacross to Drogheda. But IMPACT official Dessie Robinson said most staff wanted to stay in Dublin. “Most of our members want to stay, but following the change in location they are saying they’d sooner be in Drogheda than elsewhere because it’s closer to their homes and families in Dublin,” he said.

Peter Nolan, IMPACT National Secretary wrote:

“Services will suffer unless you have the right people with the right skills in the right place. The increased number of volunteers may bring greater flexibility to the project, and I welcome that. But the figures clearly show that specialist staff have not bought in to decentralisation. Clerical staff and administrators do a great job, but they can’t do the work of engineers, architects, probation officers or legal experts,” he said.

Quotes taken from an article in the latest newsletter (pdf format) from IMPACT, or read the article here.

ishmael whale

It would look like the decentralisation of the ‘operational’ area of Garda training to Templemore, without thought of the functions that this organisation needs to fulfil, now complicates the modernisation of Garda training. If the college was based in a major centre like Dublin or Cork the College would have been less incestuous to begin with. It would also be easier to downgrade its status and train Gardai in UCD and/or UL or wherever was deemed best when the model for Garda training changes.

But now the local electoral scene in and around Templemore has an impact on the agenda of how best to train Garda to meet national needs. The proposed decentralisation programme will multiply situations like this where irrelevant local concerns will impact on national delivery of services. ‘Operational’ areas need to be sensibly located, the same as any other function.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/opinion/2004/1015/1089213743OPEDGUARDS.html

“Garda Siochana needs to reflect the profound changes in Irish society
Recruiting 2,000 gardaí is an opportunity to review their training and deployment, writes Carol Coulter …… This offers an opportunity for the Government and Opposition alike to stop focusing on absolute numbers, and to look instead at what the gardaí do and are trained to do.
The litany of shortcomings in the force, as revealed by successive court cases and ongoing tribunals, is by now well known. Large sums of money have been paid by the taxpayer for damage done to members of the public by members of the Garda Síochána…….
There was much talk yesterday of adapting the Garda Training College at Templemore to the demands of the new recruits. But there was no indication of any scrutiny of this model of Garda training, where young recruits spend almost three years entirely surrounded by other members of the force, both as fellow-students, teachers and as gardaí in the stations to which they are sent as part of their training ……..
There is no challenging of the conventional collective wisdom of the force by the teaching staff, though an occasional representative of an NGO visits Templemore for a set-piece lecture on Travellers or rape victims. It is true that some student gardaí visit other establishments for certain segments of their training, but it does little to dilute the "them and us" culture that then emerges in events like the Reclaim the Streets debacle.
While police in the UK are educated in training colleges, and receive less training than they do here, the trend in other countries like the US and Australia is for them to be educated in universities. Given that there will be extreme pressure on Templemore in the next few years, it is an opportunity at least to experiment with the use of other third-level campuses and their staff for a portion of the course………”

lucernarian

I feel that Drogheda has enough blow-ins and stupid rezoning decisions without an extra 300+ people and families moving to the area so the fewer decentralised jobs going to Drogheda the better IMO.

NewDubliner

To_be_confirmed wrote:

I feel that Drogheda has enough blow-ins and stupid rezoning decisions without an extra 300+ people and families moving to the area so the fewer decentralised jobs going to Drogheda the better IMO.

Yes, but are the FF seats safe there?

Taking jobs from Dublin and giving them to Drogheda could win more seats for the ruling party.

EK

uncivilservant

Public sector to outsource two data centres - SiliconRepublic.com

Within the next few weeks the Government will be inviting tenders to provide our public service with space and services in two world-class data centres as recommended in the Flynn Report on decentralisation last March.

<snip>

The tender competition for this significant contract promises to be very interesting indeed. Ireland has world class data centres – we had even more in the late 90s – but they are all based in Dublin. But there are currently less than 10 world class centres remaining (or fewer, depending on your definition of ‘world class’); all but two are owned by multinationals and no company owns more than one.

<snip>

Developing an existing data centre or building a new one to world class standards would be restricted to Cork and Limerick because of the strategic necessity for guaranteed power supply at the required capacity.

There is also a national security question for Ireland in relation to US multinationals. The US Homeland Security agency has jurisdiction (de facto, even if there are lots of legal arguments) over their assets overseas. Theoretically, such a company could be compelled to give access to data or devices it hosts for clients. Earlier this month in Britain, a US Web hosting company handed over to Homeland Security a set of servers and hard drives which belonged to Independent Media (Indymedia) on grounds as yet undisclosed at time of writing.

Under the contract proposed for the public service data centre requirements the facility owners will almost certainly not even have access to the state’s equipment or data. There is also a huge gulf between the data of a small media company and a sovereign government. But a thorny question mark still hangs over a possible conflict of national security interests if the chosen data centres are operated by US companies.

http://www.siliconrepublic.com/news/news4a.nv?storyid=single3941

Fascinating stuff, but one can't help but fear that the selection of suitable locations will be driven by factors other than sound business decisions.

NewDubliner

Since the existing IT staff do not want to leave their homes and families, government will out-source the work to whoever will build a 'world class data center' in a favoured rural constituency.

Will they be employing cheap non-EU staff on 'bondage' work permits?

What's a 'world class data center'? Can you get one on eBay?

uncivilservant

A FIANNA FÁIL deputy has accused his constituency colleague John Deasy TD of making “damaging and over-the-top” comments about decentralisation and other local developments.

<snip>

“He has sent out clear signals to those who are prepared to relocate that they are not welcome and I’m laying down a marker that if this kind of gibberish continues I will take him on,” Mr Wilkinson said.

<snip>

“The OSI were originally going to bring 300 jobs to Dungarvan, they then downsized it to 199,” Mr Deasy said. “At this stage I have learnt there are only 60 applications - it isn’t happening, the whole thing is a sham.”

“If I’m being criticised for publicising the truth, well, that’s my job,” he said.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/pport/web/ireland/Full_Story/did-sg0yVj8k86Z6Asgdq-nXlDAyFE.asp

uncivilservant

The PSEU have made details of the most recent meeting of the General Council sub-committee on Decentralisation (october 4th I believe) available on their website.

Some highlights:

It was envisaged that the DIG would make a report to the Cabinet sub-committee within a month with recommendations as to the sequencing of moves

It was clarified that Government decisions on the first phase of re-locations were likely by the end of November.

The issue of a CAF process for Dublin-based staff was discussed in some detail. The view of the Official Side is that when the first phase of re-locations are identified, the process of moving staff into those organisations will begin. Staff in those Departments/Offices who are not interested in re-locating out of Dublin will be invited to participate in a Dublin CAF. The Official Side does not envisage opening up a general transfer system so that everybody who ever wanted a transfer out of their Department would be able to move. Rather they wanted a system to enable staff whose posts are being relocated to express preferences for Departments and locations in Dublin so that some attempt could be made to accommodate their wishes.

"...some attempt..." will be made? Do I detect something of a shift in tone? It would appear we are back to "You'll go where you're sent, and you'll be happy about it."