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Child Item

Advise please.

The Big Chief

I don’t know where to start this but I’ll give it a shot. I’ve friends who over the past few months has been through a hell of allot, facing up to some father issues he has, depression, nearly killing himself on drink (going on week long benders), I’m pretty certain I saved his life one night. Thing is he seems very very confused. All he ever wanted growing was a family, a wife and kids and to be the father to those kids he never had. Problem is he has never been that attracted to women, always put it down to social background and environment, (Most women in his area are on the make), but now he’s wondering weather or not he’s gay. It’s really worrying him, and we’ve talked at lengths about it.

I’ve tried to convince him that it doesn’t matter one way or the other and not to try and categorise himself into a little box. But it seems really important for him to know, like he will find some new found happiness by knowing one way or the other, is this true? I think he’s deluding himself that it will make any difference what so ever to whom he is. His family are convinced he is gay, but personally I think it’s just too damn convenient to wrap up all the issues he has up, and blame it on him being gay. If he’s gay then the fact that he’s slightly ****ed up isn’t their fault. I think he want’s to believe it for the same reason.

Thing is I got a phone call out of the blue about a week ago asking did I want to go for a few pints, he sounded really odd. I found out he had been out all day with a friend of ours in the country. Now the thing is he seemed all night to want to talk to me about something and on the way home we stood for a few hours talking about it.
I got the impression he’s spending far too much time inside his own head, trying to figure this out. He doesn’t have enough real life experience to figure out a solution and its driving him up the wall, so I told him to get some. He then made the point, what if he doesn’t like the experience, to which I replied at least you know then.

I don’t know what it was but I got the sense he wanted me to put him out of his misery there and then. While I, on average, prefer women, I’m at a point in my life where a same sex relationship does interest me, especially with someone who I know so well, And there in lies the problem. He’s my best friend and I don’t want to do anything to risk that, I also think we need each other, he’s been there for me and I’ve been there for him. What if I unearth something in him he doesn’t want to be there? What if I confirm his sexuality but that’s not the thing for me. I’m just as confused as he is; just I don’t care and take it on a person by person basic.

At times I find myself unbelievable attracted to him, I love a trust him more then I ever have any other person, but I do nothing for fear of making a bad situation worse. I really don’t know what to do, should I just go for it? I feel as if maybe something a part of me always wanted has landed it’s self in my lap. That said I really don’t want to take advantage of an emotionally vulnerable friend.

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dub45

Just some random thoughts that occurred to me reading your post:

Sex between friends (gay or straight) is often the ruination of a very good friendhip.

It is not necessarily a good thing to get into a relationshp with the first person you have sex with and it does not automatically follow that you will if it does happen (sex that is)

A person who is dealing with a lot of issues gay or straight is not necessarily a good person to get into a relationshp with (at that time anyways).

I think there might be a codependency issue here but only you can know that.

A gay relationshp brings its own pressures and requires a lot of strength from both people involved.

what do you want from being in a relationship with this friend?

How old are both of you?

The Big Chief

Originally posted by dub45
Just some random thoughts that occurred to me reading your post:

Sex between friends (gay or straight) is often the ruination of a very good friendhip.

True, however it seems important to him that his first time is with somebody who means something to him.

Originally posted by dub45

It is not necessarily a good thing to get into a relationshp with the first person you have sex with and it does not automatically follow that you will if it does happen (sex that is)

Well to be honest, I hadn't thought as far a head as sex, its not that type of attraction. Its just wanting to be with and have someone, and have that comfort.

Originally posted by dub45

A person who is dealing with a lot of issues gay or straight is not necessarily a good person to get into a relationshp with (at that time anyways).

I'm already in a relationship with him, We share almost everything. We're practically brothers, that's how close the relationship is.

Originally posted by dub45

A gay relationshp brings its own pressures and requires a lot of strength from both people involved.

That's the thing, I couldn't give a **** about outside pressures, Family pressures aren't an issue, at least for me. Him on the other hand actually cares what people think about him.

Originally posted by dub45
what do you want from being in a relationship with this friend?

How old are both of you?

I don't Want anything, I've never been attracted to another guy before and part of me wonders if I'm just trying to be something I not in order to be there for my friend. As I said I'm just as confused as he is, except I embrace my ignorance with the naive view that it will all work itself out in the end, his is causing him issues and is afraid that he should be out there living his youth and that somehow this is holding him back. Where both 19 btw.

dub45

Have you ever fantasised about having sex with a guy (any guy?)

The Big Chief

I have thought about it in the past, but never actually with one I knew. As I said I would on average definitely go for women over men if it where a simple case of sexual fulfillment and gratification.

dub45

Dont want to be hogging things but seeing as no one else has joined the thread here are some more thoughts for you:)

You cannot solve another person's problems for them only they can do that. It is very important that you realise that.

Thats not to say that you cannot help and support but only they can take responsibility. Also it is not good to be making excuses for someone e.g. most women in his area are on the make and so on. Whether they are or not is not going to affect his basic sexuality.

You say at one stage in your post that he is spending far too much time in his head but you also seem to be spending far too much time in his head too and that is definitely not healthy for you (obviously on here anyone can only get a sense of what is going on of course so forgive me if you think that is wrong)

Your friend has a lot to deal with at the moment and trying to look at it in a detached way this is a list:

Father problems (not sure what you mean here)

Family problems ( I say this because you mention that they think he is gay so I presume it is being discussed openly and this may add to his pressure - maybe linked to the father thing which you mention plus his general behaviour that you describe must be an issue for his family?)

Depression (again not sure what you mean - is he getting treatment or do you mean he is feeling down?)

Alcoholism (potentially anyways)

His very strong desire for a family/kids etc

His problem with his sexuality

He must be having problems with whatever he is doing - studies/job if hes behaving as you say

Irresponsible behaviour (weeklong alcoholic binges)

Now anyone with one or two of those problems would be feeling pressured but your friend really has a lot on his plate and probably needs counseling/prof help.

You have certain issues to work out too:

Your own sexuality is becoming an isse for you.

You are overly concerned with this friend (in my opinion and thats all I can give) thats not to say its wrong to be its not that simple - but I think you need to be very careful in the situation.

What if I unearth something in him he doesn’t want to be there? What if I confirm his sexuality but that’s not the thing for me. I’m just as confused as he is; just I don’t care and take it on a person by person basic.

You cant unearth something in him - you cannot take the blame/responsibility for that. If he goes to bed with you or someone else and discovers something about himself that is his choice not yours. And he has to deal with the consequences of that.

And you cannot confirm his sexuality.

And again you are more concerned about him in all of this than you are about yourself that seems to me to be raising the issue of codependency (which I know is a complex matter but in a simplistic sense a big sign is when someone appears to care more about solving another person's problems than they do their own)

What if it does not work for you and you feel bad about yourself as a result - is he giving any worry to that? Is he totally self absorbed? When he hinted about going to bed with you did you detect any concern on his part for you? I ask these questions because it appears that this is all about him and very little about you.

I have rambled on enough apologies!

Rock Climber

OK
I'll speak from experience here, having been on both sides of the fence .

There is something very different about a Male:Male situation where both are very close friends and thinking gay thoughts about one another.
It operates on a very different rule structure than a man:Woman friendship vs relationship thing.

Theres very different societal pressures/expectations at play in both cases, both from the point of view of the two people involved and from the viewpoint of those around you.
.
Whatever you decide to do, you will discuss it and decide what the pitfalls are if any and try to avoid them.
From the outset if both of ye are going into this eyes wide open and knowing /deciding that ye won't fall out and that the closeness ye have at the minute is paramount then I see no reason not to go ahead. It's not Sex and doesn't have to be, it can be as slow and as gentle as you both want it to be and only what you want it to be.

At times I find myself unbelievable attracted to him, I love a trust him more then I ever have any other person, but I do nothing for fear of making a bad situation worse. I really don’t know what to do, should I just go for it? I feel as if maybe something a part of me always wanted has landed it’s self in my lap. That said I really don’t want to take advantage of an emotionally vulnerable friend.

Therein lies your answer
This sounds soppy, but take his hand,laugh, go for walks, chat hold his hand some more, hug lots and just be there and see where it takes ye.
It sounds to me like you couldn't take advantage of him or vice versa.
Just allow yourselves to let go and let whatever happens, happen and hey! best of luck

BuffyBot

TBH the situation your in doesn't sound like the ideal foundation for a relationship if you ask me. There are too many unresolved issues going on around him, and possibly yourself for this to be healthy. Be (close) friends by all means, but I don't think sex/a relationship is the answer.

yellum

I agree with Buffy. Be a close personal friend but don't take it any further at the moment because you could easily end up having a falling out ( he seems under pressure from every other parts of his life ) and then he'd have nobody.

Or if you think you can the handle the additional pressures of a full relationship as well as being a friend to someone in a lot of emotional turmoil, then it's your choice to take the existing relationship further.

Good luck with whatever way you choose.

Rock Climber

Reason I gave the answer I did, is because I'm guessing, the big chief's friend fancies him.
It could be the underlying problem, the chief headwrecking thing thats going on, the other problems being solveable.
If I was in his shoes,I'd let things (mindfull of how close the two people are) progress a stage further.

It's just my 2cent, but I'd find it difficult to near impossible to maintain a close friendship relationship with someone I fancied especially when it's a lad if I knew something could have happened and it didn't and then theres the not knowing,I'd need to know .
It would be heart wrenching to be honest because on the one hand you have the not knowing, and on the other Big chiefs friend would have to see Big chief woo-ed by someone else while he still have feelings for him.
Thats not a nice position to be in without closure.
The question is...Is your closeness strong enough for the experiment regardless of the outcome, if it went either way. Only you will know that, it sounds as if it is.
You decide.

Beruthiel

I would also have to agree with Buffy,
I think your friend is very messed up in his own head, he has an awful lot to work out, I think a relationship with you on top of this would only confuse him even more. Perhaps it could happen in the future when and if he works out all his personal issues. Be there for him, continue as you are for now.
Do you think he would benefit from seeing a professional? he really sounds like he needs to talk things through with someone who knows how to ask the right questions.
I know how truly horrible it can be to have crap going round and round in your head, not knowing which way to think about any given situation as there is always more than one option. All that thinking and worrying only sets to confuse you more, sometimes you do need someone who knows what they are talking about to lead you through the fog. Urge him to see someone.

The Big Chief

BuffyBot, I won't bull**** you, I've no idea what the ideal foundation for a relationship is, I've never had one. No one seems to think that resolving his identity issues in this way would be of benefit? I thought relationships where meant to bring stability and reassurance of your place in the world, someone to be with ans share with. I think that's what he wants more then anything else, and in fairness so do I. But I can't speak with experience on these issues. Where both incredibly inexperienced with these issues, I can't predict the problems, I can't even predict how it would work.

yellum, you talk about additional pressures of a full relationship, do you mean of a homosexual one. Cause I'm a firm believer that people can only put pressure on you that you allow them to. I've always been a stronger person then him, in that he bottles things up and I don't, I think I could handle what ever happens because I think he is worth it.

Rock Climber, I don't know so much that he fancies me as I'm someone safe, someone who likes him and he knows me. while he doesn't know that I've my own doubts(never really examined my own sexuality until all this started) he knows I'll accept him no matter what. Simply put he knows that I'm not going to go ballistic because a friend has come onto me, its not the first time a male friend has. However he's probably scared of rejection, his biggest fear from people.

I'd find it difficult to near impossible to maintain a close friendship relationship with someone I fancied especially when it's a lad if I knew something could have happened and it didn't and then there's the not knowing,I'd need to know .

You sound like him, Such things don't bother me, I never ask what if, he on the other hand becomes obsessive about know weather or not something was the right decision. As for our relationship holding together despite of what ever results from happens, I know enough to know how quickly love that turn to hate. We've grown up together all been together in one form or another, ended up going to college together as much as I'd like to say it could, I just don't know.

Beruthiel, Have you any idea how hard it is to find professional help in Dublin. He found one who simply prescribed drugs. He said **** that, I said **** that. I've helped him through allot so far, but some times you just have to let time take its course.

Part of me wonders is this issue is coming from his family saying he is gay and him believing he isn't, and being conflicted as a result? If I make a move it could just put him under allot more pressure, like heres one more person saying your gay, someone who knows you better then allot of your family. What type of effect will that has on this stability. However every time We're together lately its just the feeling of anticipation, like its inevitable. Like there's this willingness for it to happen. I guess you would equate it to nervous anticipation of the first kiss. He believes he will gain some form of relief, of finally accepting himself where he affirms his sexuality. Knowing friends who lived a lie by being straight and then came out, he may have a point here. I'm simply Some one he isn't going **** him over and push him into anything he doesn't want that his attraction to me. Mine to him is just an urge to get all this out there an not pussy footing around any longer and a reflection of his own desire for a safe environment to experiment. Btw I base all this on the fact that if it was simply a case of wanting to have gay sex, there's always been plenty of takers for both of us, more so him then me though.

BuffyBot

I thought relationships where meant to bring stability and reassurance of your place in the world, someone to be with ans share with.

They can be, yes. Step back for a moment and see how much baggage both sides are bringing to this. Can you really say that you think this is a good foundation to build a relationship on? Especially one with someone who is so important to you. Unfortunately the past has a huge resonance on the future, and of it were me, I'd be all for having a relationship - if you both feel you want to - when all his issues are worked out.

If I make a move it could just put him under allot more pressure

Yes it could. Also, if it all goes wrong, he's lost one of his best friends and a lover. Either of those alone is a big blow to people, both at the same time can be devastating. It is possibility of sex (lets not assume a relationship will automatically develop from your first sexual encounter with him) and a potential relationship which could be great, or could go wrong more important than being a solid and consistant friend to him?

dub45

I agree totally with what buffy has to say. Relatonships should be entered into with great care. Personally I think people go into them far too easily. Have said jokingly in the past that relationships should carry a government health warning. It cannot be underestimated the damage that a relationship can do to one or both participants when it goes wrong. People should not enter a relationship to solve other problems.

It is not hard to find good professional help in Dublin I can give you the telephone number of a very good counsellor (who will not recommend medication) if you want to go down that road.

I would also like to ask you Big Chief what do you want at this stage of your life for yourself (forget about your friend for the moment I am concerned anyways about you thinking too much about him and not enough about yourself0. Please think about that for a while what is it you want for yourself?

yellum

Originally posted by The Big Chief

yellum, you talk about additional pressures of a full relationship, do you mean of a homosexual one. .. I think I could handle what ever happens because I think he is worth it.

No, I don't mean a homosexual relationship. To me a hetero or homosexual relationship boils down to the same things: Love, trust, openess, sharing etc

On reading more of your replies I'm thinking it sounds like he still isn't sure at all and he could get upset if you were try it on ? But you are expressing your thoughts well here, why not tell him what you are telling us, you both seem close enough for you to be able to say this to him.

Are you physically close, do you hug and hold each other, touch shoulders and all that, if not, then that might be a start that could lead on to more closeness.

The Big Chief

dub45 if you wouldn't mind providing that number. He was in contact with several councilors, all where booked up but for the last, which was useless. As for what I want, I look around and everywhere I see people in love and in relationships but I'm not, and it isn't because there aren't people attracted to me, I've had my chances, its because all I can see is problems, but with him I seem to be not so much blinded to the problems but willing to take them on.

It is possibility of sex (lets not assume a relationship will automatically develop from your first sexual encounter with him) and a potential relationship which could be great, or could go wrong more important than being a solid and consistent friend to him?

sex is not the motivation here, I don't have a strong sex drive. A potential more intimate relationship would be the motivation if I could sum one up. At times I feel he's up for it, I'm up for it, if we where the friends I know we are then why the hell is this even an issue. As for his own issues, well they will never be resolved and I'm already as involved in them as one can get who isn't a family member. Everyone has problems buffybot everyone is damaged, some more then other's. I'm a narcissistic bastard with commitment issues, he's anal, worry's to much and has a fear of abandonment.

yellum, you are right I'm not certain he is sure, in fact I'm pretty sure he's just confused. Things could back fire spectacularly. However I see where all this is heading, I know the guy, he believes he needs an answer and sooner or later he's going to get tired of playing musical chairs and take a seat. What do I do then, do I lie and say I don't have feelings that I obviously do? Do I embark on another relationship with someone else only to have to deal with this later.

Taken that I won't make the first move, what way should I handle it if or when he makes his move. I'm tempted to let all this lie until the summer. Away from college and all the pressures and give us both time to think. One thing however is certain, the way I am, and the way I feel, when it happens I'll just go for it, and hope for the best.