What is the logic of building the terminus at Charlemint? It's not a high density part of Dublin, in terms of residents.
The Luas Green line south of the terminus is built on an old heavy rail line and is largely seperated from local roads. Because of this it has a higher capacity and can carry many more passengers than north of there where its running on the street with little segregation.
The original proposal was for the Green Line south of here to become part of Metro (the Metro would run along the current Green Line from Swords past Charlemont all the way to Sandyford (where the Luas stops using the old rail alignment and returns to street running to Brides Glen)). Since that plan got scrapped, the Metro will now connect to the Luas at Charlemont where a higher proportion of passengers can be transported along the Luas Green Line and then transfer to Metro to continue north.
There is absolutely no way that they will go back to planning, public consultation, ACP and potential JR's !!
Also they have already issued tenders for the project based on the current project.
Zero chance this changes,
And to add to this, TII has plans to increase frequency of Luas trams to Charlemont as it becomes a major interchange. That is possible as far as Charlemont due to it being highly segregated, but wouldn't be possible further North.
Also there is still the future possibility that the line will be upgraded to Metro.
charlemont would be a great place to terminate every 3rd or 4th luas would presumably need a side track and additional bridge but could work great
In a document for Metrolink they talked about increasing frequency to 30 trams per hour (per direction) so one every 2 minutes. With some trams turning back at Charlemont along with other upgrades.
Though now that they own the homes at Dartmouth Square, that might make for other interesting possibilities.
Ah, normally I would agree, but I do think that there's some wriggle room on this. The changes needed, basically a slightly larger station, with a new third entrance, are so small in the grand scheme of things that they could skip the non-statutory consultations and go straight to ACP with it. It's a very different experience to do relatively minor planning changes than it is to make changes to the route, etc.
I do think that it's mostly unlikely, but it is possible. One of the main reasons why I'd even consider this as a possibility at all is that I don't really understand why they bought it in the first place. They had planning and agreement with the developer, and I just don't see why you'd buy it in that case? Other than to make it easier to make small changes to the plan, I can't really see the reasoning behind this.
EDIT: The heat is making me feel hungover when I wake up in the mornings, so I peppered this with mistakes, including one that made it the total opposite of what I wanted to say 😂
I've noticed on my travels to various cities that the terminus station is sometimes a 'not busy' station and that the most hectic station (usually a city centre station) is often the second station on the line.
So whilst it has kinda happened by accident for Metrolink, it's not that unusual and may even be considered good practice.
I assume the purchase on O'Connell Street will ensure another decade at least of that whole area being a derelict or run down kip despite the advanced plans that had permission to regenerate the area but were facing relentless challenges from the usual suspects or "patriots" if you will.
Probably, but one would hope that being centred around a city centre metro stop, the area might finally see some nice offices and HQs being built. It's certainly got the potential.
The shinners and hereditary 1916 royalty were ensuring those plans were never going to proceed anyway. Though agreed I don't see this as positive at all in anything happening with the site, just look at the Hawkins House site across the river, all the controversy around demolishing it a decade ago and the OPW have just left it as derelict wasteland ever since and still have no plans to do anything.
If this purchase includes the empty plots facing OCS then I'd guess it'll just get used as a site compound for the station works, then probably sit derelict for another decade while someone slowly decides what to do with it
The obsession with the Chinese and corruption around this project all over social media is actually quite disappointing. Obviously optimism is low from ongoing projects but seriously… people cannot comprehend anything to do with infrastructure.
Though now that they own the homes at Dartmouth Square
They don't own any homes at Dartmouth Square yet.
LOL! I was thinking that when I wrote it, but I was hoping people would understand what I meant.
Having said that even if they didn’t own every home in that area that they needed, they could always CPO any remaining if they did decide to do something like this.
I didn’t really want to get into it here on this thread as this is probably a topic for the South of Charlemont thread rather then this one, I’ll follow up there.
If this purchase includes the empty plots facing OCS then I'd guess it'll just get used as a site compound for the station works, then probably sit derelict for another decade while someone slowly decides what to do with
It will need to be most of the plots previously owned by Hammerson facing onto OCS as the station box covers about 80% of their land facing onto OCS. Strictly speaking there is some land North of it that isn’t in the station box, but not certain if they have bought that too or not.
Once the Metro is built I seriously doubt it will sit empty for another decade. That will be a very high demand location with a Metro emerging right into it.
It will be very interesting to see what Hammerson has planned now that they also fully own the Illac Center. That is an awful lot of land they now own around Henry Street. Given that the Illac Center is set back from the street, that could be a big opportunity for them to develop it into 8 to 10 storey type building with offices, etc. over the shopping center a short walk from a Metro station.
What I was thinking, after they have started construction, they could go back and look for new planning permission to modify the station to add a second entrance. That would reduce the risk of it impacting the entire project. If the modifications got rejected, to could just fall back to the original plan.
I say that having looked at the station box plan, there does look to be space to add a Southern entrance and escalators within the station box. The Southern end actually has emergency stairs and exit and a ventilation shaft. They would need to work around the ventilation shaft and fire equipment, but might be doable.
I don’t think extending the station South would be possible, as they won’t own those plots (not part of Hammerson) and shifting the whole station box North I feel would be too big of a change and would jeopardise the entire project.
Thing is, I’m not really seeing a major benefit here, the station box is only 120m long, so by creating a Southern entrance, all you are doing is reducing the distance to the Red line from 340m to 220m. I don’t think either of those are in any way a far distance! Hell the DART platforms at Connolly to Busaras Luas stop is further at 450m!
What I do think is worth doing is moving the Red Luas stop West of O’Connell St, next to Easons. That would save you having to cross OCS. You would be a straight walk on a footpath with no real street crossing between the two, much better connection.
Watching the Metrolink briefing from yesterday, I'll put anything that I notice in here:
Carlton site bought so that they can have a construction compound around it. Again, I don't see why this was necessary, that's something that could be very easily agreed with Hammerson.
A lot of the spend so far has been on planning and investigation, which is derisking the project. Not new to anyone that's been following on here, but I guess TDs have to get the info 😂
On the phasing of the project, the contracts are for one complete system. They're investigating a range of contingency plans in the event of problems, along with whether there's any benefits from a phased opening
Timescales are going to be firmed up with the business case, but mid 2030s.
They consider the start of the preliminary ground works, utility diversions, later this year as the true start date.
There's more negotiations going on at O'Connell St, which is one of reasons why they won't confirm or deny the price paid to Hammerson
TD from swords giving out about McDowell "writing falsehoods about this project on a weekly basis", have to admit, that cheered me up.
Quite a few areas of land along the alignment where they are in negotiations.
They're looking at the Fingallians pitch site, looking to reconfigure how they approach that site, hoping to reduce disruption. Meeting with them on Friday.
Nothing on the name of the system yet, but considering the amount of questions and points being made about it being in Irish, you can be assured that it's going to be in Irish 😂
Have to admit, I was kinda shocked/disappointed at the questions from Sinn Fein. One of the questions was on if it would have any Dart connections, FFS, what a waste of a question. Every party can fire off some dud questions, but that was a collection of duds.
Loads of question on the cost from everyone as well, which is grand, but the answer isn't going to change.
Fine Geal TD looking at China for examples FFS
Running out of interesting stuff, to be honest, the level of questions are now "what will it be like for someone getting on in the city centre?" The Interim Director must have been delighted.
Ah FFS, "will the entire journey to the airport be underground?" This is from a senator. Jesus wept, the map has been available for about ten years at this stage. "Will it have one track or two", oh god, make it stop.
They expect Metrolink to be designated under the Critical Infrastructure bill.
The understanding is that it will be under the CAG and therefore PAC on funding accountability.
Dart+: Spencer Dock is going to be as important as Connolly and Heuston, Glasnevin will be a key station.
Main contractors on site in 2028, so expenditure will ramp up then.
On risks to cost, momentum is key, the supply chain being switched off. Ultimately, time is money. Efficient decision making, need to make decisions at pace. Inflation is key.
More Fingallians talk. Nothing new. Complaints about traffic on the R132. There'll be trackers on trucks from Metrolink, so that they can monitor it. They're hoping to not add to peak hour traffic at swords.
Complaints about accountability, with them not able to answer who is ultimately responsible.
On what they think could be done to avoid delays in planning, they like the 12 points that was raised recently. Think that local authorities will need help on the legal side for Metrolink.
Nothing much else jumped out at me on this.
Fantastic stuff @CatInABox. Thank you for taking the time to give us all that.
Super stuff. Glasnevin will be a key station and I wonder if it would impact the O route. I get there's benefit for the O to pass the Mater, but it feels like that Glasnevin Station and an orbital close to it could be very beneficial too
Thanks so much for the fantastic summary CatInABox.
LOL, I can feel the frustration oozing out of you on this one and some of the others:
I'm sure some of the idiot comments would be super frustrating to us all, thanks for taking the bullet for us! :)
Overall it sounds very positive what the Metrolink team are doing.
Spending €80 million of public money, and in the process killing off a critical large scale regeneration project that would have transformed the OCS area, just for a site compound seems like a ridiculous justification, surely there must be more logic to it than that?
Also I was walking past the new Coopers Cross development in the north docks earlier and noticed some big metrolink presentation happening inside, couldn't make out what it was all about though!
Realistically most of that development couldn't go ahead anyway during the Metrolink construction. The station box takes up the space of most of the Hammerson properties that front onto O'Connell Street anyway.
If they are talking about a site compound, they might just mean the last 20% at the Northern end of OCS.
It is worth noting that much of this development is currently in the High Court. I get the feeling Hammerson were worried it will be blocked anyway, the Moore Street part.
yeah sounds like a sensible approach without knowing the full details.
Alternative was a 10 year lease of a prime city centre site with no return, and potential risks if any design changes impacted the planning application being deliberated.
A breakaway from the rent everything model with no assets to show for it is welcome.
There is an image of what lookings like an official Metrolink drawing showing plots purchased on the RTE article:
The quality is too difficult to read the legend but I assume that the green boxes are the building frontages facing onto OCS (reds being various plots behind hem). The state then owns everything at least between Ned Kellys and the Dublin Bus office, between OCS and Moore Lane (the former Garda station obviously already being in state ownership).
Not sure what the light blue coloured areas mean, possibly purchased/CPO'd from other owners? Interestingly the vacant site next to the former AIB doesn't extend to the building line on OCS.
I see a planning application was recently lodged to convert the former AIB branch in Dublin into a bar, restaurant and 20 studio apartments. I wouldn't be surprised if the state ended up purchasing that too.
Enhance :)
Yes, the green and red bits are the size of the ML station box and I believe all owned by Hammerson. I'd say the blue bits to the North are where they are talking about for the site compound.
I don't think the AIB or the Parnell pub next to it are part of Hammersons holdings. Which is perhaps why TII said they are still in discussions and can't say how much they have paid, perhaps they are looking to buy those sites too.
Which BTW Reminds me that I meant to say that the OCS station actually has two entrances, just that the second entrance is onto Moore Lane, rather then the South of the station.
"Ah FFS, "will the entire journey to the airport be underground?" This is from a senator. Jesus wept, the map has been available for about ten years at this stage. "Will it have one track or two", oh god, make it stop."
That was Cathal Byrne. It looked like he hadn't even read a Ladybird guide to the Metrolink project. Reada Cronin was as bad.
And here is an interesting map of the Hammerson Dublin Central plan, you can see the Metrolink station in red taking up most of the frontage to OCS and across to More Lane:
The blue isn't indicating a compound, the drawing shows property folios.
The former AIB definitely doesn't/didn't belong to Hammersons.
Yes, I wasn't suggesting it was, but more where the a compound might go. The rest of it obviously can't fit a compound as it is where the ML station box is going.
Unless they are also buying the properties between Moore Street and Lane, but I doubt that. You wouldn't want to get tangled up in that dispute. So the only place that makes sense for a compound would be that Northern end of OCS, so that would involve discussions with Hammerson and/or AIB/Parnell Pub owners.
the compound from the RO
This is the first I’m hearing that there’ll be a metro station entrance on Moore Lane. I don’t understand why they would do that when it looks like this?
https://maps.app.goo.gl/3dUT228dygjgpBu86
They would need to be removing many of the buildings there to open up the space. You can’t have back alleyways be the entrance to a Metro station, I’ve never seen that anywhere else in the world.
Ah, the entire area is meant to be redeveloped long before then, but it's stuck in legal hell. The development has planning permission, but it was JR'd, and the hearing won't be until next January at least. The development is called Dublin Central, photo and details can be seen on the website here. This is what the entrance on Moore Lane is meant to look like when it's finished.
On what's been acquired, here's what the Irish Times have on it. Somewhat unusual that it's so broken up, but I guess Hammerson haven't bought everything, they just had an agreement to buy once the development actually started. Perhaps that's what the interim director meant when he talked about further negotiations on O'Connell Street.
EDIT: Forgot the link, it's the heat I tell you, the heat….. 😂
