I am talking about him now being labeled by some as a racist, as if he has always been one. No context, nuance, caveat, discussion….lumping him in as a racist no different than some truly vile career type racists. One incident of him using language that is racist, and we have people ready to crucify him as some sorta ku klux klan type figure
No one has lumped him in with the Klan, apart from one certain poster who was misrepresenting others arguments and shamelessly used the holocaust to back their point up.
That's Bertie's problem TBH. Don't want to be called racist? - don't make racist remarks.
He could easily have avoided all of this by not saying racist things. The idea that other people are to blame is pathetic.
I think you know I wanted the poster to include a link when absolutely stating numbers as facts . Otherwise you are arguing against unverifiable statements and subjective opinions which is not possible .
My beliefs are that people should be given the benefit of the doubt without prejudice if they are coming from a country that our government considers not safe .
If they get involved in criminality or it becomes known while being processed that they have criminal links a criminal record , or are involved in criminality in Ireland then a decision needs to be made about not admitting that person or deporting them .
We are or should not be obliged to take other countries' criminals even for asylum .
However the difficulty is knowing who is or who is not until they are already here .
If the government of the day decide the risk is too great importing people from a country of high criminality then it is up to them to prohibit that country .
There is a similar issue in Europe with Roma , Albanians and Georgians and high levels of criminality and organized crime .
With exception one cannot say that every. single .person from those groups should be tarred with the same brush though . Yo do so would be racist
But if the government decides that those seeking asylum from those country are too risky to admit then it becomes a matter of policy which can be legitimately questioned or supported before it comes into law.
What Bertie said about Congolese was similar to.the All Irish are Bombers attitude that was the narrative in the 80s in UK and came from the top down. .
It's not too nice living and working in a country where the politicians in government as well as many on the street have that attitude . In the area I worked I was amongst polite educated and multiethnic people do did not have any issues. But my partner and others I know did regularly have to field nasty comments and aspersions .
With good reason I might add , people were upset about IRA bombing pubs and apartments , but it was still unfair on all the people who were never involved nor agreed nor supported a bombing campaign in the UK or anywhere for that matter to be tarred with that moniker .
It's the same thing imo.
Politicians or those with political influence have a duty to be fair and reasonable.
Bertie's remarks were unfair unreasonable and racist generalised statements .
He may not be a racist but what he said was .
we’ve had our back and forths on this, but this is a very balanced, logical and reasoned post. Makes real sense.
Imagine that this absolute charlatan felt he had the characteristics to be president.
We got a different charlatan instead!
Berries race was run i feel. Though it would have been very interesting if he had made a nomination. But no, he would have been destroyed over his past.
I was ashamed of what the PIRA did and understood the extra security arrangements on flights from Dublin as a result. I also understood the resentment among ordinary English people towards the Irish as a result. That was a shameful time for our country and we should never stop apologising for what the PIRA did in our name.
You mention Georgia. Ireland considers that a safe country of origin.
Everyone understands the need for extra security when under threat. But does everyone understand that extra powers need extra responsibility?
Abuse of those powers needs to be called out and be accountable. Wrongful arrest, persecution, because of bias or prejudice or stereotyping is quite simply an abuse of that power. I understand why Irish people are prone to suffer from inferiority, and accept bias and prejudice, they have after all been stereotyped, blamed as a race for centuries now. Thankfully there are those who will call out abuse of power or position when it happens and importantly, when it happens to other races or nationalities like the Congolese in this case.
That is exactly the point I am making, that the auto-labelling as a racist is over the top.
Even when you disregard the posters who are doing this for naked party political reasons, there are quite a lot who are doing it for unfathomable reasons.
'Auto-labelling'???
If you make racist comments then you shouldn't or can't complain if you are called a racist.
Of course but they do so anyway. There's a whole industry and several businesses dedicated to it even.
Guaranteed if this was a shinner you wouldn't be so condemning…..anyway, I think point has been made. Just because someone says something that can be deemed racist, does not make the person a racist. What they said at that moment/instance can be called racist. A racist to me is a person who has consistency, form, real intention, malice, agenda etc. Bertie has none of this, and is like many many other people who (from time to time) have maybe said something that could be deemed racist!
Not specifically at you, Francie…but it seems for lot people it's not necessarily what was said, but who is saying it…this drives the narrative for a lot people. Politics and who is saying the racist thing….
Which is as much as I have done. For the time he was at that door he was a racist.
Has he been racist before this, I don't know.
I have absolutely no party allegiances whatsoever.
My main thought, and this is not just for Bertie, but if a person is willing to openly use these racist remarks to a stranger then the chances are they are saying similar if not worse to people they actually know.
hes a populist, and has a history of it, ff move the way the wind blows, always have, always will
So, at this moment in time, he isn't a racist, so we can drop it.
Not everything that you disagree with can be labelled as racist.
…….
That won't be good enough for some folks….they'll want to label him a racist today, tomorrow and yesterday!!!
hes not a racist he has just listened to the people on the street like he said if we cant talk about what the people are talking about its a sad day for speech ! & he is right
I have always wondered why many Irish people refuse to admit they are racist. I mean we all know there are many racists around but they are allergic to the word being used to describe them. It would be easier to just own it. If you don't like coloured people, then that is an inner feeling you have and should be able to accept it and call it out as a feeling/opinion. They have every right to be racist. The way people go on you would imagine that they are no racists in Ireland. They get so angry with the label. I think in USA, they would admit it much more readily.
You are getting close to the scenario envisaged in Minority Report where people are arrested for things they think and might do in the future, rather than actual acts that they have carried out.
People who refuse jobs to non-Irish are racists, people who join the KKK are racists. I am much slower to label people for what they might think and for what they might actually say in an unguarded moment. Show me a situation where an act committed by Ahern is racist and I will condemn him.
Nothing to do with my post. Absolutely nothing. I was responding to the valid "behind closed doors" comment. Read it again slowly and pretend I am not talking about Bertie. The minority report reference was pure daft.
You are saying that people should be called out based on their inner feelings, whether or not they actually act on those inner feelings.
That is the illiberal dystopian future envisaged in Minority Report.
The only thing I'd add is that having a criminal record in another country should not be an automatic disqualifer. Think of the number of people in Iran who would have received criminal records for protesting.
It should definitely be looked into. And circumstances around it investigated. For some, their conviction could disqualify them, but for others it might not. It's a big red flag that should be looked into, but it's not an automatic No.
Honestly you are so tiresome. Do you understand what "admit" means? Read it again...
He is though. Nobody is stopping him from talking. He has the right to his views and the rest of us have the right to our's.
I see we've moved from the Holocaust to Minority Report for another victimhood narrative as well.
I dont think we have a KKK in Ireland yet maybe there is who knows but i live in the country and the nicest people will speak out among fellow people if the issue comes up and it always does and its always the same, too many close, the borders Africans are dangerous and they dont work or integrate same words everywhere .
The MSM censorship stops people being truthful but the feeling is there. Thats why there wont be a George Floyd moment after this accident in Dublin. They wont kick off as they can feel the atmosphere everyday and they wont risk their good life here to loot and scream about racism as they cant read the depth of the racism in ireland as its subversive..
