Would agree with most of the post above - Cooper and Michalak were mercurial - great to watch on a good day (but extremely flaky). Don't think there's any daylight between Jones being ahead of ROG.
Also, if Lions tour test appearances are the bar - didn't James Ryan only get his first and only test start last year… but we're repeatedly told on here he's world class… so…?
Did you see Cooper play? Awful goalkicker and not great kicking to touch either.
I still loved to watch him play particularly when he was with the Reds beside Will Genia.
He wasn't a great out-half though, ROG was miles ahead of him.
Larkham was very in and out too, just inconsistent.
but we're repeatedly told on here he's world class
Are we though?
The definition of "world class" is pointlessly vague anyway.
More desperate whataboutery.
"Whaa what about James Ryan", are we serious 😂
The biggest detriment for ROG in comparison to the lads mentioned was his defense and lack of pace. He was very good at controlling an attack and creating gaps to put runners through, but offered little himself with ball in hand. His defense more than anything cost him on Lions tours, no coach would accept his short comings there if they didn't have to, and that was born out over the years. I don't think any of the leading nations would've selected him ahead of their own options. Saying he was 2nd to Carter at one point is an extremely rose tinted view of things. I don't think he was ever in that echelon of player. Sexton is the only OH we've had in the professional era who was genuinely world class, and I'd have him as arguably the best NH outhalf of all time personally.
The " something said bad about Munster player, must equate it to a Leinster player" is really exhausting, do you honestly not get sick of it yourself?
In many ways ROG and Sam P have exactly the same weaknesses. Weak defenders and lacking pace. ROG also had the goal kicking yips early on in his career. He had a very poor day in the HC final against Northampton in 2000 and if he brought his shooting boots that day Munster could have stolen an unlikely win. If Sam equals ROGs record and becomes as good as ROG was then we'll all be very happy. Currently that's a big if.
I'd beg to differ.
Rog had a poor tackling technique which he somewhat corrected over his career, but lacked pace and bulk to make them effective.
SP either doesn't WANT to tackle or is AFRAID to for whatever reason, and that isn't going to improve unfortunately unless he can get his head right and then learn it from scratch which no 23 year old capped international should be doing.
I agree with your distinction, both poor defenders, but for different reasons.
ROG was 5'11" and 83kg (very similar to myself and I'd be murdered on an international rugby pitch). So he lacked the physical strength to tackle, and the pace somewhat.
Sam is 6'4" and 91kg, somewhat lanky but plenty of bulk to do better than he is currently. It's a mentality thing.
ROG often was steamrolled but he committed to his tackles.
Sam has a mental block and doesn't seem to comitt properly.
Jack Crowley is 6'1" and 90kg. Much more powerfully built and goes in with full comittment. He saved Munster an LBP agaisnt Toulon in the pool stage of the CC by holding up a player with a big hit in the line. Fat lot of good it did us in the end but it demonstrates his physical power and willingness to get stuck in.
Just looked up Sexton, 6'2" and 90kg. Was a very strong defender. In fact he often was criticised for getting too stuck in and getting himself concussed.
ROG's defensive frailties appear to have been physical limitations, Sam's more so a mentality issue.
It was also a somewhat different era when Rog played. Sports science has moved on dramatically. Today he'd still be 5'11 but probably 88kg due to better targeted gym and speed work and measurement of results of said gym/speed work. Commitment which he had in spades would do the rest.
Sexton had an exceptional ability to chop down a ball carrier or to hold him up and smother him if needed. As you say, - often to the detriment of himself and his team.
I didnt like him much, - apart from being Leinster, he doesn't seem friendly or talkative which are attributes I like in a person.
He was a generational talent though, and I'd worry for his future after all the concussions. He served his province and country better than almost any other.
For all the excoriation that ROG gets for the 2nd Lions test in 2009, it's a perfect example of your point. ROG gets concussed trying to tackle Spees, then gets smashed again when trying to tackle Fourie in the corner (a tackle Bowe absolutely shat out of for what it's worth). He was a willing speedbump, rather than an arm flapping turnstile a la Geordan Murphy or Prendergast currently.
Which record? 100+ caps? 1000+ points?
Have to disagree with your assessment of Larkham. Absolutely world class in the late 90s and early 2000s. His pairing with Gregan was the best in the world for a number of years. I hated them 🤬
Cooper was an outstanding rugby player but very inconsistent. A lot like Finn Russell in his early days. Could win the game but could also lose the game with a brain fart. Often seemed more interested in mouthing off or starting scraps. Very much a confidence player that was easy to rattle. @sprucemoose described him perfectly as a poor man's Spencer.
King Carlos. What a player! Did things no one else would even think of. Bit unlucky with the number of caps he got as Mehrtens was always ahead of him then just as he became first choice, around 2003 RWC, Carter emerged.
Just to add that from an NZ perspective, ROG was never rated as a player. He had no running threat. Also the 6 Nations and Heineken Cup didn't get a lot of viewing in NZ as they were seen as inferior competitions.
ROG's European Cup points scoring record is phenomenal and it's almost impossible to foresee it being caught.
He's on 1,365 points, which is a phenomenal 491 points clear of second place (Owen Farrell on 874 points), with Stephen Jones third (869 points) and Johnny Sexton fourth (784 points).
All three of those guys in 2-4 had long careers playing in the tournament, and Sexton & Farrell won it lots (so playing in a lot of matches every year etc) and they're still miles away. I know more recently there is probably significantly less penalties being kicked etc, but even still it's some gap.
ROG average 12.4 points a game for his entire 110 cap European Cup career (second only to Cian Healy on 114 caps).
Farrell is the only current player in the top 10, and you need 523 points (i.e. 842 points less than ROG) to make 10th place (Leigh Halfpenny).
Some do, there was reference to it by someone in relation to his rucking over the weekend. He got blown away in a few physical exchanges I felt but worked his socks off.
I'd agree with your second point for sure.
I'm actually just pointing out the bit of silliness behind the idea that the bar of Lions test caps = how ROG stacked up against his peers that is the gauge here. It's very easily flipped like I did there.
(fair play for engaging without resorting to personal comments - some people on here are completely incapable of engaging properly - you can disagree with what someone says, even if you think they're being outlandish, without playing the man)
Halfpenny was a great player, always felt he was a bit underrated
the best NH FB of his generation and right up in terms of his peers globally
met sexton briefly at both ends of his career and i have to say he was incredibly nice and quite friendly (maybe thats down to having grandparents from munster). he was probably different with teammates but i remember having a great interaction with him both times. agree that i worry about all his concussions too and i dont think he dealt with the whole thing of hook questioning his safety well at all
yeah im not gonna lie, i get very annoyed when i see the 'ROG lost the 2009 lions series'-sort of stuff online. for one, its almost never the fault of a single player, and more importantly the lions realistically only won the last test since there was nothing on the line and SA put out a second string side - if the series was on the line then they would have went full bore and blown the lions away
If by “his generation” you mean the 2010s, yeah Halfpenny would be right up there in terms of NH fullbacks. Although at his peak, I’d have Stuart Hogg slightly ahead of him. As unlikeable a person as he is, on his day he was unplayable and won back to back 6N POTC awards playing for a fairly sh*t Scotland team. He’d have started for any 6N team.
B.Smith, Folau and Le Roux would be ahead of both if them though.
Halfpenny was a fantastic defender, something Hogg never was. Best tackling FB until Keenan came on the scene. Always felt Hogg was massively overrated. Big fish, small pond vibes.
Halfpenny was fantastic in the air. Hogg was electric going forward alright. Halfpenny a super kicker, good from distance too I think?
Yea, I think he had the highest kick percentage for a long time, high 80s iirc. He was better than Sexton, Biggar and Farrell. Plus he is a handsome devil.
He's comparing two great players who didn't get their deserved Lions caps.
What time hell is wrong with that?
ROG didn't deserve any more Lions caps.
ROG's defense and pace would make it hard for him to get near a test side today, strength and conditioning notwithstanding. And Lions selection is a fairly good measure of the best in their position among the 4 nations teams. ROG had a long career and was never regarded as number 1, and never forced the issue on tour. He was brave though.
Fair enough, but I don't think anyone is going to be talking about James Ryan 15 years after he has retired either (bar being capped for Ireland before Leinster being a nice pub quiz answer). It is more just an argument that he is at a similar level - which in Ryan's case is a step behind the likes of POC or Beirne.
ROG obviously peaked around 2006-2007 when he was truly excellent (and the less said about 07-08 the better, but he was hardly alone in that). I think most people outside Ireland would take Stephen Jones over him on a career basis, but I can't imagine anyone would be too excited by either.
Nah - the Lions is a point in time selection hugely influenced by form, the selection predilections of the person picking the team and, sometimes, media narrative around ensuring all 4 nations are sufficiently represented.
Johnny Sexton was a World Rugby Player of the Year nominee in 2022 (one of four players) yet wasn't selected on the Lions tour the previous year when a 22-year-old Marcus Smith was called up in his stead. Chris Harris was selected as a centre on that tour - is he or was he ever a better player than Garry Ringrose? Absolutely not. Adam Beard was selected amongst the locks in 2021. There is no world in which he is even close to the level of player James Ryan is.
There are plenty of other examples if you want me to keep going.
There are plenty of ways to have another relatively pointless ROG debate, but I don't buy the narrative that Lions selection is a defining trait of quality necessarily.
ROGs performances on Lions tours and RWC don’t do his reputation any good.
properly **** the bed. His performances in the O3/11 RWC QFs were both diabolical(it took Humphreys to come on to gloss the scoreline), 2007 was obviously poor and his performances on the 05 and 09 lions tours were again poor and historical for all the wrong reasons.
for the poster who used Larkham flakiness (in his opinion) as a reason to place him below ROG in the pecking order…. Please…. Take a long hard look at yourself.
ROG in general was a phenomenal kicking outhalf, who played in an era when teams would go for 3 pts within kicking distance, that is the reason why he has a load of points, for at least the past decade teams are kicking for touch more often than going for the posts.
Anything to be said for another ROG v Sexton debate
Retiring at the end of the season.
He's played more for Wales than any of his clubs
