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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,396 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    There is blood smears all over the rungs from top to bottom and all along Gate A, which presumably were left by Sophie as she scrambled/stumbled along the gate. Why did Sophie move from Gate B down to the Gate Post of Gate A in the first place, and then up along the gate to the briars. If she was trying to escape, she essentially turned back upon herself which doesn't really make sense.

    Alternatively the gate was smeared by the perpetrator, but then why so much and all along also.

    Sophie's movement seemingly looks like this (borrowing your layout):



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 598 ✭✭✭Orban6


    The cops need all these posters to solve the crime.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,000 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    They certainly haven't done too well on their own.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,908 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Thanks, it looks an odd route alright. Harbison had the body 8-10 yds from the pump, so probably about 12-15 yds from the pump to the gate pier. Maybe the initial confrontation was more evenly matched than is assumed?

    Gate B has been described in places as the secondary gate, but I believe it it was the cause of all that happened to Sophie. Why else was it wide open, who opened it? Why was there blood on the lawn just where the gate would swing open ? Why was the pumphouse, where the gate latched, wrecked? Why did Sophie have it put there in the first place? Was it ever examined for fingerprints? Too many questions.

    Something must have happened there early in the assault.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    This is a picture of the pumping station taken on the night of 23rd. To the right hand side is a notch/hole in the breeze blocks. What are your thoughts as to whether this could be where the gate latch/bolt fitted.

    1000029503.jpg


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 598 ✭✭✭Orban6




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,908 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    It could, but that block appears to be in the second course from the top.

    Below is the only picture I can find of the gate latch. It's a video from much later around 2012 I think. But it looks like it's still the same gate or at least the same style and the latch appears to be at the level where the top course of blocks were at the time.

    latch.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,396 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    Duplicate



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,396 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    Agree here it would certainly make the most sense from a practical standpoint for the first point of contact on the pump-house to be the latch location. In addition I don't believe the pumphouse is perpendicular in any case, it's skewed and the place where the latch is, is actually the only point at which they meet.

    I presume the gardai took the top layer of blocks, and the roof of the pump-house as evidence, or else why were they removed at all. In addition I wonder why they didn't ever replace the top layer of blocks and roof, it looks much more ramshackle above. Perhaps it was just a temp fix that no one cared to upgrade again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,908 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    There's a couple of similar looking blocks on top of the corrugated roof in the still from the video above.

    Below is a link to the fingerprint report by Det.John O'Neill from the Dunmanus files over on Reddit. It looks to me like the pumphouse and Sophie's gate were not examined at all.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/DunmanusFiles/comments/1mxbggf/fingerprint_reports_1997/



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,148 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Looks like an ideal place to stash contraband. No absolute access to one person and fairly accessable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 35,764 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    This is nearly like the perfect murder puzzle when you dig into the the people around her and the suspects.

    Is anyone convinced that Bailey didn't do it?

    For me he still the main suspect but at same time when you read all these statements years later ya would have doubts.

    Ya could have 500 theories about what happened here.

    I do have serious question marks about the garda though and their pointing the finger straight away without much evidence.

    It just feels they pinned it on him. Now did he did it or not is another question but the garda fucked up so much of this.

    Don't they say 95% of murders are dine by people known to the victim.

    So many questions. Sad thing is now I don't see us getting the answers.

    EVENFLOW



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,552 ✭✭✭csirl


    There's no evidence linking Bailey to the murder scene. The story told by the Gardai is extremely unlikely and contradicts some of the physical evidence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 244 ✭✭Baz Richardson


    I was hoping the recent DNA gathering would yield results, maybe they have and leads are being investigated. However the silence is deafening if it pointed to Bailey…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,396 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    It’s pretty frustrating that it is taking so long for DNA results to roll in. Feels like everything has just dropped off again. No articles, no info coming from the local community about any interviews etc. Nothing really for the last few months. I just don’t know if they’re really that motivated.
    Clearly nothing pointing to Bailey’s DNA showing up either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭Zola1000


    Well I truly haven't expected anything else. What capacity has the Cold case team to really bridge this gap. An enormous gap left by massively incompetent prior team within AGS who left the case with so much unanswered questions, mislaid evidence and too much of nothing evidence.. influencing witnesses and cohercing others..and portraying to media it's all in hand. We have our man he will kill again..

    but maybe not much has changed. it's continuing today..where's Michael Martin to shed some wisdom on case like he has recently..oh yes he's over in US..sitting like a buffoon..who can't speak for himself or for a nation or anything on anything. Complete waste of time much like everything else to try solve this now.

    The silence is proof ..waiting for years..and it suits AGS narrative. Nothing of any evidential value..like the gate. Somehow I'm coming to conclusion especially on recent threads here..stories around such evidence like gates could just be reason for her death.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,396 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    In a case full of ridiculous complexity that leaves your head spinning, it really does start to draw you back to a simple solution. Prob 90 times out of a hundred in this type of case around the country, it's just a simple matter of happenstance. Two people in the in the right place, at the wrong time, and in a bad mood.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,095 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    Yes. And the more thought and research you put into it, the more likely this seems to be. The simplest explanation, requires no leaps of faith, no square pegs driven into round holes, a simple argument which escalated and got out of control.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    In the end, realistically, this is what everyone with even half of a brain expected anyway. Also it was mentioned right from the start of the cold case investigation that only if new evidence came to light, it would be shared with the public. As there hasn't there is also no official news.

    And since it was the AGS which messed up the investigation from the start there isn't any real evidence left to really examine, even less a conviction in a court of law beyond reasonable doubt.

    Suspects and witnesses died as well, memories fade, cross examinations aren't really an option anymore ( how can one realistically remember one single night nearly 30 years ago….?) and left over evidence has been contaminated many times with other DNA, other evidence as well as job books from the ASG disappeared, etc…. And looking at the way the AGS worked back then, the AGS is actually suspect like everyone else and that includes the Guard from Bantry, same as Bolger, Alfie, Finbarr or Bailey, or somebody from France acting on orders of the husband, or all the others, suicide or not…

    Everyone favours a different story, even the media did, the book authors did, the movie makers did, but real evidence? Nobody ever had any.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭Zola1000


    Yes this is very accurate statement and at @Jesuisjuste. I guess I'm in desperation mode at this stage. Just can't fathom we are still here and nothing to show for it all with ags CCR team and MVac updated. It seems ultimately that we might not get anything in near term..and is the near term in case like this ...2-3 years again..for the DNA profiling part or any part of investigation



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    MVac most likely produced not a shred of usable evidence which can be seen as beyond reasonable doubt or beyond any other form of doubt.

    There is only potential for a large number of totally new leads wich can't either be proven nor varified in any way, due to the long time which elapsed.

    Loads of DNA most likely by possibly anybody handling or touching that stone or anything else by even potentially anybody coming and going, opening and closing the gates, etc…. It could be anything from a mail delivery to a trades man doing some kind of service job at the pump or pumphouse every now and then.

    The general public will always view the murder closly connected to Bailey. Anybody writing books or doing some movie might put that theory into doubt but again, there is no evidence.

    All the others, Alfie and Shirley, Karl Heinz Wolney, Finbarr and Josie Hellens, Leo Bolger, that Guard from Bantry or a hitman from France sent or organizend by her husband could have been the murderers, same as Bailey, he could also have done it.

    Some things might have been left to chance, accident or bad luck, like who really knew with certainty that Sophie was staying at her cottage, that she was alone, that the killer wasn't seen, that nothing was heard, or claimed that nothing was heard….

    Some motives sound stronger than others, it's at least beyond doubt that some or many of the neighbours had brushes with the law and had some connection to drugs and that Sophie's husband Daniel benefitted the most financially from her death.

    It would seem that Sophie was surrounded by people who had legal problems and financial issues and they all would have been better of, financially or otherwise, if Sophie was dead. Her being alone in a foreign country in a rather rural-remote house and no witnesses present would imply or possibly suggest that there was a chance for that crime being planned. But other than that, absolutely nothing.

    It could easily have been planned or it could also easily have been a verbal argument getting out of hand, leading to the killing.

    There is no proof either way and nothing is more likely or less likely.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,552 ✭✭✭csirl


    Given that AGS has put a lot of dubious stuff into the public donain, I think that they should put out a correcting statement even if the cold case review doesnt identify anything. Statement doesnt have to be detailed, but could say the following:

    -There is no physical evidence linking Mr. Bailey to the scene.

    - The French authorities have a DNA sample that does not match Mr. Bailey.

    - Our recent DNA tests have (or havent) revealled DNA of unknown origin at the scene.

    - It is now believed the likely time of the murder was later that originally thought - closer to dawn.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 45,528 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    The problem with the CCR releasing a statement now is that again a lot of what they might say would be based on guesswork and assumptions e.g. the morning murder or the DNA sample (which may have gotten onto the boot months before the murder and be completely unrelated).
    I would like to hear what the recent M-Vac tests found though in particular if non-Sophie DNA was present, was any of it Bailey's DNA?

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,396 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    Not sure if they have any actual evidence to dial in the time of the murder. As things stand the window is from just after she spoke to Daniel (11 pm), through to just before Shirley found the body (10 a.m.).

    For DNA, it would be a major can of worms for the Gardai to release that they found alternative DNA, without being able to point out who owns it, and whether that person is a suspect or innocent. If they had any hits from the M-VAC, I imagine they will be trying to pin down how and when it was left there.

    Assuming something was found, the best I could expect from the gardai is to release a statement saying something like:

    "DNA evidence has been found however it is not conclusive and we are confident that it could have been left innocently. We are confident that Jules had nothing to do with this murder. No further evidence implicating Ian Bailey was found at the scene, and there still would not be sufficient evidence for prosecution from the DPP."

    Something like that kind of lets all the sleeping dogs lie, but doesn't completely exonerate Bailey, and doesn't identify a murderer. Similar to the Kerry babies case, the Garda won't be able to prosecute anyone, even if they perhaps could have identified an alternative perpetrator.

    Still no justice for Sophie though, much as there is no justice for baby John.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,000 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    Wellll…..the very fact that the Guards have not published any comment may, of itself, be a tiny bit suggestive that they did, in fact, find something.

    For example; if the MVac testing had found absolutely nothing useful at all, zero, nada, nil, or close to that, the Guards could very easily have published a statement such as the following….(invented by me for purpose of example)

    "THE ONLY DNA FOUND ON THE PUMPHOUSE STONE BELONGED TO THE PLUMBER WHO INSTALLED THE PUMP." Ruled out!

    OR….(equally fictitious)

    "NO DNA OF ANY KIND HAS BEEN FOUND ON THE ITEMS TESTED"

    See what I mean? If nothing useful at all had been found, they might as well say so.

    So the fact they they are keeping schtum may, in fact, mean that they actually did find something, or some hints or straws in the wind, which are being slowly investigated in order to be ruled out or in, one by one. A process that takes time, on a 30-yr-old cold case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,396 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    The problem in this case though is that if they publish that any DNA was found, even including say the postman's DNA was found on the gate, 99% of people would believe that it was innocent, but there would still be a significant amount of people who would then start researching the postman's life, calling his kids, and camping outside his house claiming he murdered Sophie.

    You just can't take that risk as the Gardai. I would say there is zero chance we will find out who left any DNA, and a small likelihood we will find out IF any DNA was left at all, unless they can pinpoint it to the murderer.

    Personally I think this will find multiple hits of DNA, perhaps from 4 or 5 different individuals, of which all but 1 will be completely innocent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 197 ✭✭Mackinac


    Unfortunately the majority of women who have been murdered in this country are murdered by someone they know.

    Unless the DNA is from a stranger or it is DNA not expected to be left at the scene how will DNA solve this case?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,148 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Dna on nightclothes would thake some explaining even of known to her?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,396 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    I'm not sure if the M-VAC can discern whether DNA was deposited at the same time. For example in traditional methods the forensic team can usually identify if DNA is mixed up together (say skin, or blood cells mixed in with Sophie's blood), which is something only a perpetrator could deposit. If it just gets 'hits' of DNA, then they could have been deposited at different times, and therefore may not be sufficient to determine guilt.

    Having said that, if the gardai were savvy, they would not disclose this to the suspect. They could arrest them, and take them in for questioning, and tell them that they have found their DNA at the scene, and then try to get a confession/admission from the suspect.

    In any case, much still to be determined from the DNA testing, as I said I'm not sure if we'll hear much about it, but you would think that the testing should almost certainly be completed, and a report issued by this point.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 197 ✭✭Mackinac


    In

    Over the years it had been said that no evidence was left behind. Was that based on the assumption it was a stranger? But what if it was there all along. I fear that solving this case will take a confession.



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