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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,005 ✭✭✭almostover


    Is VdF not an old school, very mobile, high-workrate, old-school, smaller build open-side? He's 6' and 105kg. Far from a big openside.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,324 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Yes which is why back in 2020/21 when Farrell was moving towards POM or Will Connors at 7, VDF had to become vastly more explosive and a better carrier to make up for it and keep his place in the team.

    But we saw on the Lions tour when Farrell had Morgan, VDF, Pollock and Curry to choose from, he went with Curry for all 3 tests, the biggest and most physical of the 4, even though he'd probably shown the least of the 4 of them on tour up to that point. And we've seen with Ireland whenever VDF has been unavailable, Farrell's go-to has been move Doris to 7.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,236 ✭✭✭CowboyTed


    Cian Prendergast didn't take 6 years… He has been playing the same way for years…

    He was just third choice to Cohen and Braid, even Beirne if he was pushed to 6. He was a squad player who was developing physically as well..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,005 ✭✭✭almostover


    While I agree with the Sam at 10 and Jack at 23 selection, I do worry that goal kicking may let us down if the game is tight. Neither has kicked well from the tee this season. Jack in particular has been very poor. Sam has been lucky that his misses haven't really cost Leinster anything. Harry is the man if you want a 10 to kick their goals.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    I would say on this occasion the bench pendulum has switched towards Ireland.


    Generally speaking you want you’re bench to have an average age of 27-29 years old, and around 25 caps per player.

    The average age of the French bench is 25.75 and has an average of 15 caps per player compared to Irish bench which is 29 years old but has an average of 36 caps per player.


    Last year when I saw the two bench I knew we were going to lose because the French bench just showed that they meant business whereas our bench expressed fear and that showed not just in the players performance but in how Esterby used the bench.


    This year the biggest challenge will be staying in the game will be the biggest task but if we do so we have the bench to cope with whatever France through at us unlike last year.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,005 ✭✭✭almostover


    I think we've missed a trick including Timoney over Edogbo. VdF is well able for 80 mins and the game will need to be more open for Timoney to make an impact off the bench. France have the man mountain Meafou on their bench, Edogbo would have been the perfect counter to him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    That's a frustrating enough update - would much preferred see how guys like Sam Illo & Diarmuid Mangan go than seeing how Jack Aungier & Fineen Wycherley do. The former two might one day be an option for Ireland, the latter two likely never will (maybe too early to say that for Aungier).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,017 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I'm open to correction here, but I'm almost certain Harry's place kicking isn't significantly better than Sam's and Jack's this season stats-wise? I'm pretty sure Harry is 76% with the other 2 ~72%



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 890 ✭✭✭darkened_scrum




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,906 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Yes, none of them have what you would call stellar percentages. Harry's is slightly better, and on a vibes level he has kicked some important goals and when he misses is less prone to completely shanking them which both the others do from time to time.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Yeah, obviously I get that, just mean from the value of the fixture, I'd have been more curious to see how Illo in particular goes at this level.

    My predicted team for this now:

    (15-9,1-8):

    Ciaran Frawley, JJ Kenny, James Hume, Dan Kelly, Zac Ward, Jack Murphy, Matthew Devine, Billy Bohan, Gus McCarthy, Scott Wilson, Charlie Irvine, Fineen Wycherley, Max Deegan, Bryn Ward, Sean Jansen

    Reps: Diarmuid Barron, Sam Crean, Jack Aungier, Harry Sheridan, Brian Gleeson, Fintan Gunne, Cathal Forde, Shane Daly

    Missing out: Ethan Coughlan, Stephen Smyth, Paul Boyle, Fiachna Barret

    I'm guessing guys who dropped down from the senior squad (Frawley, Bohan, Ward) or were recently in the senior squad (G McCarthy) will have primacy over competition, and equally guys who were more recently added will be likelier to be on the outside.

    We lack a bit of heft in this team in the tight 5 (especially the locks), but there's a lot to like about that back row and replacements IMO.

    Big opportunity this game for guys like Zac Ward, Bryn Ward, JJ Kenny, Dan Kelly, Sean Jansen & Billy Bohan to make a strong case to possibly be capped in this 6 Nations Championship I think.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,017 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    The point being, I don't think we can go as far as saying "Bryne has been doing well" in that regard, when it's a negligible difference to the others, and the overall % is very poor by international standards.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,906 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Well, I can't speak to Crowley, but it does feel like Sam misses far too many kicks that are in any way difficult. The overall % can be a bit too crude a measure to track that (he equally gets a lot of easy enough conversions). But that is again pure vibes based, I don't have the stats.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,017 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Occasionally for international games, you get an "expected success %" on place kicks.

    It'd be interesting to see that combined with the actual kick %'s, for every kick taken; it's give a more informative insight into how a player is place-kicking.

    But tbh with a ~76% kicking success, I still doubt adding that qualitative aspect is going to bump Harry up to "doing well".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,084 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


     pure vibes based

    And that's really the only argument for Byrne. At a very crude level, Byrne nailed a clutch kick against LAR when Prendergast couldn't kick snow off a rope, and we're playing our CC knockouts at home as a result. At an even cruder level, Crowley kicked 2 from 5 against Castres, Munster lost by 2 points and are out of the CC. These are indeed the vibes, but it's no basis to pick your test team.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,377 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    I think it's as simple as jacks misses have cost games whereas Harry's kicks have won games.

    Sams half way between both



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,986 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    I would say Harry has been good. I would have had him on the bench.

    I noticed Leinster and Munster played some of their best rugby when the Sam and Jack were playing at FB.

    Osborne is a big risk at 15. He cant be match sharp and defensively it's a huge ask. Exacerbated by the left wing selection.

    One of the benefits of Osborne is his left foot. It may have also played a part in omitting Lowe.

    I think Farrell has misjudged his selection(s) in the XV (I really like the Prendergast at 6) and bench.

    Personally I would have started Crowley at FB and have had Byrne and Osborne on the bench.

    I dont like just having the two backs on the bench at all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,986 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    Persisting with Frawley at FB would be a waste. I think you are 100% correct in that he will start there.

    He's moved to Connacht to play 10.

    Shane Daly is the better option to me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Frawley is likely to play IMO if he's been dropped down from the senior squad, and I think it's likeliest at 15. I don't love him there at all - but it's not like Shane Daly is a great option for 15 either in a senior international context.

    It's a position of relative weakness across all four provinces at the moment IMO without much depth there. The very fact we're parachuting Jamie Osborne back in at 15 who hasn't played in over three full months (and would otherwise have been parachuting Hugo Keenan back in who hadn't played in over 6 months really speaks to that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 721 ✭✭✭Madeoface


    Looking like a drizzly night in Paris. Might help us a tad if the ball is greasy for their wingers.

    I'd be happy with a lbp. Better bench in green.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,673 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Don't think Stockdale is good enough for this level any more. Ward or Baloucoune offer more imo. Crowley benefits from the 6-2 bench, as he's been the worst 10 by some distance this season. Hope McCloskey can make it through a match uninjured for once, dude has had shite luck. Stewart ought to the bench hooker, Kelleher is such a liability in an already suspect lineout.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 597 ✭✭✭Tommybojangles


    Think it's worth saying fair play Jacob Stockdale. It's not easy to get back into a strating team at the age of 30 after being dropped, and even moreso after getting chances in autumn games etc and not taking them due to injury and/ or issues in his game.

    He's kept his head down and is starting in Paris, not through injury but becasue he's overtaken the incumbent. Credit where it's due. Hopefully he goes on another fairytale try scoring spree like 2018!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,996 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Harry doesn't need to great, he's still better than the other two for the simple reason that's he's more balanced as in decent defensively and offensively, better than Crowley offensively and Prendergast defensively.

    Harry isn't the answer by any means but he's a better option than either of the other two. And Frawley on the bench is a better option to Crowley.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,986 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    You are right. It is worth saying. Credit to him. Good chunk of it should also go to Richie Murphy by incorporating his strengths into Ulsters style of play.

    I dont want to come across as unduly harsh but he's not the best winger in Ulster anymore. There also remains glaring weaknesses in his defensive positioning, workrate and tackling.

    Fair play on your positive take but I do think his weaknesses can be exposed badly at this level.

    Hopefully it will be lashing down rain where France will struggle to get it wide to Attissogbe and co. and it will just mean a more stop-start set-piece type….. Oh! No Ireland could also do without that.

    Lets hope Stockdale gets the ball in the wide channel, the chip-and-chase, try Ireland and Prendergast nails the touchline conversion.

    0-7 Ireland after 10 mins.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,685 ✭✭✭P.Walnuts


    You entitled to your opinions, but.....none of that really makes any sense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,576 ✭✭✭✭phog




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,084 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    It was interesting to hear Farrell talking today about how Stockdale has focused on what he's good at, and IIRC he said something similar in November.

    It's good to hear about guys responding positively to setbacks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,673 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    He's more of an answer than Crowley is, at 10 anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,017 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Presumably at this point you've revised your opinion that it was just "discontented people on the internet that think he should be dropped"?

    Or indeed that his form at 15 was so meaningless towards a change at 11, that it'd be akin calling for Jack Conan to play scrum-half?

    The point being, maybe you points above were hyperbolic rubbish, and those who were calling for Stockdale to be ahead of Lowe….. actually had a point?!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭50HX


    Absolutely & credit to Farrell for selecting him,the "safer" bet from a coaches perspective would have been stick with Lowe. Hope it wirks out for JS & he sticks with him for a few games

    Similar with Prendergast in the back row even though I don't see Vdf sitting out all of the 6 nations games....horses for courses in Paris at least



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