you can’t find a simple solution to a complex issue, or you can’t simplify a problem and think one solution will solve all the issues. Sure the wrong call might be made sometimes, but the execution of the skills in timing, throwing, lifting and jumping still need to work no matter what the call is. Maybe the call is misunderstood by one or more players. The throw can be the problem, every hooker throws a wobbler at some stage
Then the call the timing and the throw can be perfect and The defending team still get up in front.
I think it could very well be part of the problem. But to lay the blame almost exclusively on Beirne is way too simplistic.
To your credit, you've rowed back a bit from that position this morning. But that was the clear implication from some of your posts yesterday.
Two more points:
1:
Ireland's lineout frailties have been discussed ad nauseum on here countless times, to the extent that multiple people on numerous occasions have called for POC's head.
Correct. And I think we've identified another (and obvious) part of the problem, rather than Beirne, which you completely omitted from your earlier conclusion.
2:
You don't have to take my word for it though, here's the guy himself talking about a game where the lineout struggled…
Do you think I can't produce quotes from other players saying that they need to improve at the lineout, that the fault is on them, and even some saying they won't hear of any criticism of POC?
If you're going to accept what Beirne says, then it seems to me you also have to accept what other players say too.
you can’t find a simple solution to a complex issue, or you can’t simplify a problem and think one solution will solve all the issues.
I understand that but to be fair, there wouldn't be many who would really think the lineout problems are down to one player, especially the lineout caller. It's silly
Agree with all of this.
For example, Ryan Baird fluffed his lines for the first lineout of the game for 2 of the AI games. (It was later suggested they couldn't hear the calls cos of the crowd noise).
Laying mistakes like that, that contribute to the poor lineout results, at the feet of Beirne is just way too simplistic.
That's a literal statement of fact there - Leinster's pack across these European games was largely the Ireland pack. We gave 72 minutes to RG Snyman (3%), 22 minutes to Rabah Slimani (1%) and then 48 mins and 68 mins to Jerry Cahir and Diarmuid Mangan respectively (who aren't Irish internationals).
The rest of the minutes all went to Irish players who played in the November series, and, once again, Leinster's line out was 95% successful across these games, the best record in the competition. Throw in the fact they played in very greasy conditions against Leicester & Bayonne.
Adding Beirne into that pack is the only change to the Irish pack more often than not, and he also fulfils the very important role of calling the lineout.
How is a controversial view to say he is likely a big problem with the Irish lineout, especially when you layer in the fact that Munster's lineout has been relatively poor (especially in Europe and in crunch games)?
It's kind of remarkable though how regularly it happens at international level (and for Munster), when you put largely the same group of players together on another team and they've the best lineout in Europe this season.
Do you think they're running the same lineout in Leinster and Ireland?
Players are always going to defend their coaches; and players are always generally (especially in the cliched and media trained world of Irish pro rugby) going to talk about improvements and work ons etc; that quote from Beirne isn't as generalised as that. It's a really specific quote that is hugely pertinent to the point I'm making; it's him saying that the reason Munster's lineout faltered really badly for a specific period in that game was down to errors he made on the call, a number of times.
As I've said, I'm obviously not calling for him to be dropped or anything stupid like that. He's an incredible player, one of the best forwards Irish rugby has ever produced. There are guys out there who look like they might call a lineout better than him (potentially Iain Henderson, Ryan Baird, maybe Tom Ahern) but they aren't necessarily a lock for their place on the team (though Baird was getting there before injury), so it's hard to hand it over to any of them either. I don't think James Ryan is necessarily any improvement either on Beirne.
But i 100% think there's something in this, and think it's a way more substantial part of our lineout failings than people here are willing to give credence to.
I absolutely think there is something in it too. But it's not everything. You were almost exclusively laying the blame with Beirne. That's the point.
I think that's the part of your posts that people took issue with.
I'm not exclusively blaming Beirne, and I'm not saying every single lost lineout either is because there's a bad call. I specifically remember a situation in the Japan game where Tom Clarkson messed up the call and missed a lift, and that's obviously on him.
But, to me, there has been very little scrutiny or discussion of the role of the line out calling in assessing Ireland's lineout frailties (certainly by comparison to the flak POC has received), and I think it's a hugely material part of a faltering lineout.
There is definitely enough there when you assess the relative performances of the Leinster, Munster & Ireland lineouts to ask serious questions about this.
a hugely material part
Part. Correct.
So the Ireland lineout works when they wear blue but not when they wear green and the issue is Beirne.
Gotcha.
and you don’t take the opposition into account t for any of it?
I'm saying there is enough statistical evidence to say the issue isn't the quality of the throwing, or the lifting or the jumping, as the very same players largely demonstrate no material issues with these aspects when playing for Leinster.
When we consistently struggle then, yeah, the quality of the opposition at international level is a bit of a factor, but I think the largest factor is either with the guy generally coaching the lineout or the guy calling it, or both. There has been lots of scrutiny and criticism of the former there, but virtually none of the latter.
I'll ask this again - Do you think they're running the same lineout in Leinster and Ireland?
You're absolving the other 7 guys when they are a large part of the problem too.
Who calls the Leinster line out?
No, they're obviously not running the same lineout with Leinster and Ireland, given there are different coaches for both, and I'm equally not entirely absolving the other guys (I clearly cited an example of a scenario where Clarkson was at fault), but as I said, I think there is enough there to show how the same set of players aren't having these issues for Leinster, so the issue primarily is either the guy running it (from a coaching perspective) or the guy calling it.
We're going around in circles here.
James Ryan in the main these days. When baird is fit he does it (sometimes)
Fair enough, FTD. I'm not really inclined to do a lineout-by-lineout breakdown so happy to leave it at that…
It’s a good question to ask but I would say the largest factor is with the Hooker.
Rob Herring is the best at it in Ireland. By a mile. He is of course schooled in the Western Cape where they prioritise set-piece.
Next best is Sheehan but he’s not a good scrummager. Too tall.
Tbh, I think scrummaging is our biggest set-piece concern going in the 6 Nations after what happened vs SA and with our injury issues.
Overall, it's probably the most tentative I've been going into a 6 Nations in a good few years, based on our SA, NZ and France results and performances last year…
IF and it's a HUGE IF the caller was the problem our lineout woes we would have been sorted ages ago. Hey, we could have gone down the SA route and used lights from the coaches box for our calls.
Without question
Penalties at scrums. Free kicks at Lineout.
Crooked throw and contest and you get a scrum. More penalties.
Not in Irelands favour
Does being too tall have something to do with his throwing?
Sheehan is the thrower in (statistically) the best lineout in Europe, his ability to throw is not the issue. The lineout was impeccable when he was in the Lions jersey too.
Whether he always knows where he's supposed to be throwing with Ireland, or his jumpers and lifters know where he's going to throw it, that's less clear, and that's sort of the point of this discussion. If everyone can execute the skills but we keep f**king it up, then the likely explanation is either the calls (i.e. the coach) or the calling on the pitch (the lineout leader).
But there were glimmers of hope in November, hopefully that continues in two weeks.
But on this….
Whether he always knows where he's supposed to be throwing with Ireland, or his jumpers and lifters know where he's going to throw it, that's less clear
…this could equally be an 'attention to detail' thing on the part of the thrower or the lifters. They obviously have less time in Ireland camp than they do with Leinster.
Beirne could be calling the perfect lineout, but if the players in question don't know that detail, it hardly seems like Beirne is at fault then.
And before anyone says otherwise, this could also be levelled at POC - if the throwers and lifters don't have enough time to know the detail, he needs to design a simpler lineout playbook.
But literally none of that can be placed at the feet of Beirne.
The point is - there's plenty enough blame to go around, so poor our lineout has been in recent times. But ultimately, for me, the buck stops with the coach.
Yeah, and maybe it's equally not Beirne's fault that Munster's lineout has been atrocious in crunch games this season too (only game in Europe with success % above 80% was versus Gloucester's second string side, and there it was 83%), but it's quite a coincidence that Beirne is blameless in all of this and everyone else is always to blame.
I literally haven't said he's blameless….
I think his calling is part of the problem.
also posted by Aloooof, less than 10 mins ago:
…but if the players in question don't know that detail, it hardly seems like Beirne is at fault then.
We get it, Beirne has to shoulder some blame for Munster's malfunctioning lineout. And yes, given his performances for us in Red this season he's lucky that Ryan Baird is injured because his place in the team might be in jeporady otherwise. I also think that Fineen Wycherley has been calling the lineout in recent Munster games and it's still been unreliable, so that disproves the point you're trying to make.
There is a chance that Farrell will have noticed Beirne's poor club form and start a Leinster 8 vs. France by playing Jack Conan at 6. But Beirne is a Farrell favourite and I'd wager a large sum that he'll be wearing the 6 jersey in Paris.
The lineout has many inputs to success, the caller, the jumpers, the lifters and the thrower. All of these must be got right if we're to stand any chance of a decent 6N. I do recall that POC himself used to heap huge praise on John Hayes' importance to the lineout during his playing career, apparently his lifting was top notch and gave POC a huge advantage competing for the ball.
Exactly. "that" being the subset of lineout issues that were dicussed in that post.
Beirne's calling is also an issue.
So no, I literally haven't said Beirne is blameless. I've suggested Beirne is blameless for, for example, the suggestion that Sheehan doesn't always know where he's supposed to be throwing for Ireland.
This isn't difficult. Please stop misquoting me.
