I've come to that conclusion ages ago 😉😂
As an Ulster fan I'd say it's only now Doak is ready to be capped. Also he is 23/24 which is a perfectly normal age to win your first cap so I've no concerns with his non selection up to now..admittedly I'd be disappointed if he doesn't get in for the upcoming squad. But he's developing nicely and could be in the Ireland squad for the next 10 years.
As for Casey, I like him, he gets the ball away quickly...however I'm trying to remember a statement performance from him for Ireland, maybe he hasn't really had the chance. I remember he was going well in SA in 2024 before the concussion so maybe that was his statement performance
🤣🤣 I'm well on the road just don't want to acknowledge that
I think the point is not to squash the discussion but to look at it from a different angle.
What if Casey isn't getting huge Tier 1 minutes not because Farrell is conservative and wedded to JGP but because he does not see the makings of a top-level 9 in Casey?
Paddy McCarthy came from absolutely nowhere and ended up starting against a Tier 1 country in his third test, even though the first-choice guy was fit and available. Joe McCarthy was the same, he blew past long-established James Ryan with very little game time. Tommy O'Brien might just be keeping Hansen's jersey warm but I doubt that's any comfort to Nash, Baloucoune or JOB, all of whom he overtook without breaking a sweat. for 6 test starts in a row. And of course Hansen himself came from complete obscurity to nailed-on starter in no time at all. Farrell's very first game as head coach involved benching POM to give a first cap to some bloke called Doris.
What if Farrell is just hoping/praying that we find a new 9 soon who can make the step up, because he's already made his mind up on Casey?
There's a conviction on this board that until we see a player in regular tier 1 tests, we cannot know if he's good enough. I don't agree with that at all and it really looks like Farrell doesn't either. Maybe he has seen what he needs to see already.
And before people flip out, I'm not saying that I think Casey isn't good enough, I'm speculating on what might be going on in Farrell's head.
That could well be the case but whatever way you slice it "just hoping/praying that we find a new 9" is poor succession management when the incumbent is nearly 34.
There will come a time - sooner rather than later - that we will have to new a starting 9, regardless. There could even come a time when JGP gets injured.
There's a conviction on this board that until we see a player in regular tier 1 tests, we cannot know if he's good enough
I disagree with this. My conviction is that I think Casey is good enough to have seen more gametime than he has seen previously. I feel I've seen enough of him to come to that conclusion.
The different angle being that of Farrells??
Yeah. It’s just speculation but Casey has been in every squad, every tour for three years now. It’s very possibly the case that Farrell has seen what he needs to see and doesn’t see huge value in giving him loads of minutes.
It’s very clear that Farrell has a very different perspective to a number of posters here, maybe it’s no harm to think about what that perspective might be.
The number of posters you’re talking about do think about Farrell’s perspective. They also, at times, disagree with.
If Andy is sitting around hoping and praying, rather than making the best of the hand he's been dealt, we're utterly shafted.
As for Casey not being the answer... He might not be the the answer to the question "is the back-up nine as good as I want?" but he is the answer to "who is currently the second best nine on the island?" I would have thought giving Casey minutes and experience might be the only chance of improving the situation.
Andy is a world class coach so rest assured he is doing what’s best for Ireland as he always has done
Robertson got the Sack overnight from the All Blacks
Robertson had a win rate of about 74%
Anyone know what Farrells win rate was since 2023 RWC?
70%, though it is 76% overall for his tenure (aka, the best winning rate of any Irish coach ever).
Great point and but I think if people accepted this it would make this place very boring as we'd have nothing to talk about lol.
I've no issue with Casey but he's 26. My opinion, which will probably enrage some peole, is that he's not going to improve too much, even if he starts and finished the next 10 tests for Ireland. There's always the possibility he has a massive surge in form or shows an improvement in his game that warrants him challenging Park, but it certainly hasn't happened so far. You've listed out tons of players who were dropped straight in, farrell has no issue doing that if someone is good enough
If JGP gets injured or goes off a cliff before one of Doak/Murphy whoever step up, then Casey will be in and he'll be fine, but not great
If Andy is sitting around hoping and praying, rather than making the best of the hand he's been dealt
They're not mutually exclusive and I never said they were.
All Farrell can do is hope we find a new 9, the same way all he could do was hope we found a new 10, a new LH, etc; he has zero control over what players come through from the provinces. That does not mean he isn't making the best of what he has.
I would have thought giving Casey minutes and experience might be the only chance of improving the situation.
"I would have thought" is the key phrase here and it's literally the point I'm making. Maybe the reason Farrell gets so much flak on here is that people just look at things completely differently to him.
You think giving Casey minutes is the way to improve him. Fair enough, but it's very possible that Farrell is looking at a guy who:
and he's thinking that starting him against Scotland is not going to tell us anything we didn't know already, and that giving him more minutes is not going to improve him by a significant margin.
It goes back to my point that posters are convinced that we can only assess a guy based on regular tier 1 test minutes. That might be true for spectators, but it has seemed obvious to me for quite a long time that Farrell doesn't agree.
We have lots of instances of players "not getting a chance" despite being in multiple training squads over prolonged periods. At some point we have to acknowledge that "getting a chance" means different things to different people.
Giving him minutes might not make him Antoine Dupont, but if it improved him a bit…
Andy can think all that stuff you said about Casey (and I take your point about Farrell seeing the player in training etc, in which he obviously puts a lot of stock) but at the end of the day, he has to play him when JGP is knackered or injured. Are those minutes or games he might otherwise have given to Casey improving JGP? It's not like he's trying other options.
The relevant counterpoint to every poster saying that Andy has been our best ever coach (and I'd agree) is that every coach has a shelf life. Posters are within their rights to wonder if that shelf life is running out if they think Andy is making mistakes. (That's a broader point, not really about Casey.)
100% agree and have been saying this for a while now
It's the whole "what do we learn" attitude from fans. As fans we deserve to "learn" nothing.
Yes that makes life on a discussion board very boring, but it is also a valid point to counter the "my provinces player doesn't get enough minutes / minutes against tier 1 teams" argument.
The coaches know these player limitations and ceilings a hell of a lot better than us keyboard fans.
Are those minutes or games he might otherwise have given to Casey improving JGP?
No, but that's the point. Maybe he thinks that minutes in big games are not for improving players but for winning matches. Maybe he thinks training and development games are for improving and testing players.
The relevant counterpoint to every poster saying that Andy has been our best ever coach (and I'd agree) is that every coach has a shelf life. Posters are within their rights to wonder if that shelf life is running out if they think Andy is making mistakes.
Could not agree more on the 'shelf life' issue. If Joe Schmidt had walked away in December 2018, his legacy would be as the greatest coach we've ever had, but he stayed for 2019 and, well… Eddie O'Sullivan in 2007, Declan Kidney post-2011.
But I don't know if Farrell has hit that point yet. He definitely makes mistakes but the main criticism of him is the turnover (or lack of) in the squad and I think he does a better job of that than he is given credit for.
The Casey thing echoes Crowley and the 1/4 final. Would anyone trust Casey to win a 1/4 or semi against NZ if he was asked to play a half or to start? That doesn't really matter if he is the guy subbing behind JGP. In that case the coaches job is to get him to his performance pinnacle because he may have to play. I can't imagine Casey learns nothing from getting more minutes in big games, as Crowley would have done in the run up ot the WC. Farrell made a mistake not getting Crowley to where he needed to be, I hope he doesn't do the same with Casey.
I think we need to do away with the fanciful idea that even God himself could have got 2023 Jack Crowley to the level where he would have won us that World Cup QF.
If any of our current 10 options were dropped into that game with 20 minutes left we'd probably end up losing by more
Farrell made a mistake not getting Crowley to where he needed to be
I don't think there's any scenario in which any 10 would have replaced Sexton in that endgame, but let's look at the above statement and assume Crowley was not "where he needed to be" on 14 Oct 2023.
A year prior to that date, Crowley had started a grand total of five games at 10 for his province where he was third choice. Five. Nevertheless, Farrell gave him his test debut and a week later, his first test start, against a Tier 1 country.
Fast forward to the start of the RWC. Crowley has now started 12 games at 10 for his province in his whole career, but has 4 starts for his country, with two of those coming against Tier 1 countries. Add to that the 2 starts for Emerging Ireland and Crowley played precisely one more game at 10 in a red jersey than he did in green in the 12 months prior to the RWC.
I'm sorry to be harping on about perspective but he's been absolutley hammered about this for two years, but someone more positively disposed to Farrell might look at the same set of facts and say that the only reason Crowley was in the frame at all was because of Farrell.
It can be both; that the only reason Crowley was on the frame at all was because of Farrell and Farrell made a mistake by not getting Crowley where he needed to be. That “needed to be” being for 10 mins at the end of the game when Sexton was out on his feet. Now, it’s a little harsh given how new on the scene Crowley was. But I still think Crowley have been on and that there is clearly a parallel to be drawn here with Casey. The difference being Casey is far more experienced and, imo, deserves far more gametime.
Can you re write that and include his minutes played as well as his starts.
Stating start only stats is painting a picture that any 10 to come on for Sexton must be a club starting 10.
My underlining concern is that history may well repeat itself in the next cycle.
All chips were in on ageing Sexton.
We are heading the same route with JGP
A 38 year old hobbling Sexton is still twice the player Crowley is now. If 2026 Crowley was on the bench I would still leave Sexton on. I'd probably still leave 2026 Sexton on if I'm being honest
Well, it’s fair to say I entirely disagree with that then.
exactly this
Two years on and a much more experienced Crowley can’t even shake off a deeply flawed Prendergast. All the game time in the world wouldn’t have changed anything in the QF and we’ve seen nothing in the last two years to suggest Crowley would have won it for us.
In fairness JGP improved a lot after he turned 26. He never made the NZ U20s, he couldn't nail down a starting spot in a pretty average Blus team, went to the Canes as a back up but had a highly rated TTT breathing down his neck and was never in the conversation as a potential AB. When he left for Lienster at 24 or 25, no one in NZ was wailing about it. Maybe they thought its a bit young to go North to collect his pension. No one thought he would become the player he did. Pretty much everyone viewed him as a solid SR back up.
I know a handful of people might like to believe that but most people watching Sexton struggle during those final minutes v NZ just knew he wasn't up to it and anybody would be an improvement. If you have the stomach for it, watch it back, he struggled to get off the ground or to get back into position at times, he literally fires the ball at any Irish player just to get it away. He was spent.
All the game time in the world wouldn’t have changed anything in the QF and we’ve seen nothing in the last two years to suggest Crowley would have won it for us.
I mean, literally the next game after the RWC, 3 months later, Crowley was very good away in France in what was Ireland's biggest ever win over France…
Ah yes Andy knew that at the time & still persisted with bringing him to the RWC
As poor as Crowley was/is in your opinion he's still getting capped.
This must be very uncomfortable as I rarely see you not aligned with Farrells choices
Where did I say he’s poor? I think he’s a very decent player, just not nearly as good as our best ever 10.
Why would I be uncomfortable that he’s still being capped? He’s obviously either our best or second best 10. Why would I object to that? I love the current battle between Crowley and Prendergast, but I don’t think either of them are really test level 10s
Yeah I generally do align with Farrell because I think he’s doing a good job and I’m an Ireland fan first and foremost. It’s not like there’s any shortage of people with the opposite take on here.
