Some mad videos emerging from Bondi beach in Sydney. Gun man opened fire. Seems to have been arrested from the videos I've seen, looks like multiple casualties.
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AugustRain
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Yet, we have people repeatedly on this thread saying we need to examine and acknowledge the role of geopolitics, the West, Israeli actions in Gaza for this act while downplaying any association or motivation by radical Islam, and insinuating that anyone who questions this is right wing.
You are such a disegenous poster, it is unreal. Are you that uncomfortable at the idea of losing your little scapegoats that you would resort to making up things? Surely you can address points logically if you disagree with them?
Because:
*I never said radical Islam wasn't a motivating factor for killings *I never said this wasn't an antisemetic attack. *I never said it was done for Gaza (considering what I know). *I never said it was the west's fault.
The claim repeated here that Islamic terrorism happens "because they are Muslim" is completely wrong.
Saying this isnt denying any motivation (which is obviously Islamic extremism) it is stating it isn't the cause. Because motivation and causation are two different things.
Do me a favour. Take a breath and read what I am saying. It will help keep your emotions in check. Respond to what I'm saying. Dont make up things. I am happy to debate then.
One more time.
Terrorism is a method of violence, not an ideology. It can take on almost any form (other than pacficism).
Terrorism consistently appears where there is war, occupation, repression, and extreme power imbalance. That has been true across history and ideologies. Any argument here?
Looking through history the evidence is overhwhelming. Yet you and loads on here are saying that's not relevant to terrorism when it's Muslims doing it. Then it's cuz they're Muslims.
Would you argue that the PIRA existed because Irish people are violent, or because Catholicism, nationalism, or republicanism causes terrorism, and causes people to kill innocent civilians who they don't agree with?
Would you argue the PIRA had nothing to do with the specific political situation in NI?
Afterall, IRA members were mostly Irish, mostly Catholic, believed in Irish nationalism and killed innocent people in its name.
And just like some of the arguments on this thread, there were plenty of people in the UK tarring all Irish people - it's their religion, their culture is backward, they are a violent people, that's the Irish for you etc. Entire communities were treated a suspect because of the IRA , Irish communities constantly asked to denounce IRA violence.
Discrimination, political exclusion, occupation, BA killings on the streets, internment etc didn't factor into these conversations much. Similarities here?
The same applies to support networks. Irish Americans didn’t fund the IRA simply because they were Irish or Catholic for example. They did so because the conflict existed already and resonated with their identity/grievance. Without that political context, there would have been nothing to fund.
This is similar, the political context in many ME countries resonates with some Muslims in Europe/ UK / USA etc.
Some of these become violent terrorists with their ideology as their driving vehicle. In stable societies like we have in the west, these are mostly lone wolf style attacks, not massive terrorism like we see in the MEz where there is massive societal breakdown, which can spill into stable places like ours.
Others, be they countries or wealthy individuals, fund it like the Irish Americans did the PIRA, either because the conflict resonates with them, or they want to exert political influence (like Irans proxy groups)
None of what I am saying denies the motivations behind attacks, but motivation and causality are not the same thing, and my argument firmly rejects the idea of collective guilt of Muslims that so ignorantly gets trotted around here.
Muslims should no more be blamed for Islamist terrorism than Irish people should be blamed for the IRA.
It’s bizarre that you can say in the same post that it’s reasonable to think Israel’s actions in Gaza may have led to the murder of a 10 year old Ukrainian-Australian by an Indian-Australian, but also that it’s completely unreasonable to think that the killers’ religion may have been the cause of their hatred for Jews.
I mean, otherwise your argument is that random people from around the world hate random Jews in the same country so much that the safest place for Jews to live is, ehh, Israel. At least there they can build walls and keep their attackers - who “coincidentally” are all Muslim - out. Something that’s impossible in Australia or England or America.
They arent a total rarity at all. Remember the attack on the Jewish supermarket ten years ago? There was also an attack at a jewish museum in 2014 and a school shooting in toulouse in 2012. Not to mention consistent low level events with schools and synagogues being targeted. Do you think the fact that armed protection is common at these places is just paranoia?
Considering how few jews there are in europe comparison to white Christians then I would say that they are over represented in these attacks, which are becoming more common. Also christian schools and places of worship aren't targeted in the same way in Europe. Yet.
I think it’s a massive mistake to think that Al-Sharaa has become a statesman, or that HTA is now a group of moderates. They are literally murdering entire groups of people on ethnic/religious grounds, and there are allegations of widespread kidnapping and rape of women just as ISIS and Al Qaeda did wherever they were in power.
I know western governments are desperate for it to be otherwise but I fear that’s not how things are headed.
Nearly getting overlooked in all this though that terrorist attacks on Jewish people in the West are actually a total rarity. Nearly all the terrorist attacks of the last 20-25 years in Europe were on what were perceived to be white Christian targets: Madrid and London tube bombings, plus all the ISIS attacks more recently.
Absolutely true. There's definitely the case that a lot of extremism and sources of extremism is ignored for the sake of Realpolitik. The most obvious example is Saudi Arabia as the source of Al Quaeda being ignored in terms of consequences, as well as the role of Qatar in funding and exporting terror. The Syria thing is despicable as well, a lot of the coalition against Assad were hard-core Islamists. I remember cancelling a standing order to UNICEF as they were giving a lot of funding to refugees created by Assad, and I wasn't certain in whose hands that money would end up in.
A lot of extremist idealogy is being deliberately spread by wealthy gulf states and foreign funding of schools, charities and religious institutions in the west by these countries should be stopped.
Consistently when there are threads on specific topics, the conversation evolves in various ways. That's how discussions work.
And seeing the extent at which people are blaming an entire community for this attack has gone beyond just talking about the Islamic state.
Because it's a thread about an Islamic terrorist attack in Australia. There is no reason to bring other belief systems into it, as literally the only known motivating factor for this attack is that it was done in the name of Islamic State. The shooters gave no other indication for why they carried out the attack.
Most of the people in this thread bringing ordinary Muslims into this are those bringing up Gaza, Israel and the West and denying or minimising that Islam has any role in this atrocity. Like it or not radical islamic beliefs are being spread throughout the world and they are recruiting in the main from normal Muslims as some mosques do promote these idealogies.
We've had people say we don't hate Muslims enough, that we should have blanket bans on their immigration, or that we should have extreme restrictions on their immigration. Speaking for myself, I haven't denied Islam having a role in this atrocity and I haven't seen others make that denial.
And like it or not, radical Christian beliefs and now radical Jewish beliefs are also impactful on the world stage. But what we've seen on this thread is an immediate jump to action with respect to one belief, and hardly an acknowledgment of the others.
When we talk about ISIS or other 'terrorist' groups in or originating in the ME we should be aware of the differences and rivalries/conflicts.
As an example, the current leadership in Syria is from HTS which up until July this year was designated an Islamist terrorist organisation. Now the HTS President of Syria is feted in the WH and UN.
Ahmed al-Sharaa - Wikipedia
Yesterday's terrorist is tomorrow's (or today's) statesman.
Yet every time there's an Islamic terrorist attack, people want to discuss their motivation and how they were "radicalized". Why is that?
This is the first time that there is a been such a discussion on here in this manner that I am aware of. It certainly is the first time I have been involved in such a discussion where I have discussed it in this way.
And that is specifically because of what we have watched over the last 2 years, and how it has been permitted/facilitated/applauded to various degrees.
(And to your first point, the discussion on right wing extremism and how it grows and is influenced and nurtured by various political and media outlets is a rolling conversation on here on current affairs topics)
I think the new word is suicidal empathy. Another kind of white guilt over something that we're not guilty of. An unexplained desire to be kind to the whole world even when they don't respond with kindness.
I don't remember loads of people asking why or trying to understand the motivation behind the ChristChurch mosque shooter. Everyone basically accepted that he was a racist, far right POS. The questions were all about how he had access to military grade weapons.
Em, we know these were Islamic terrorists, so yeah I will call out Islamic terrorists for this crime. When it's a white nationalist crime I will call out the white nationalists.
We've seen time and time again western born Muslims converting to these radical forms of Islam. Denying this is an issue in the face of all the evidence to the contrary makes people even more suspicious of ordinary Muslims who don't subscribe to these beliefs in the long run. Calling out these people is what everyone should do, whether Muslim, Christian, Jewish, left or right, as these are extreme ideologies that should not be tolerated.
I wouldn't be surprised if these turn out to be innocent. There's a lot of knee-jerk reactions happening over there.
A group of men believed to have been travelling to Bondi have been rammed by an unmarked police vehicle during a major counter-terror operation near Sydney.
New South Wales Police said they received a tip-off that the men were potentially plotting a “violent act”.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/12/18/men-rammed-anti-terror-police-australia/
..
I haven't even suggested that they were motivated by Gaza. But it is very possible that they were given what has happened and is happening there. I think that is something that you have to acknowledge is at least possible, no?
I have repeatedly stated this because of the way this event has been taken, on here, and otherwise, to target the Muslim community. You have people calling for blanket bans of Muslim immigration and denigrating the entirety of the religion for the actions of a tiny few within it.
There is a massive and obvious discrepancy in how the Muslim religion is viewed in terms of the acts of some of it's members have carried out (purportedly in its name) and how the Jewish community is viewed with respect to Gaza and the West Bank. Muslims are being held to a much higher account.
And continually over the last 2 years we've been told to not conflate the Jewish Religion with Israeli people while A, we absolutely see that conflation to the extreme when it comes to the Islam and members of the Muslim community and B, we've seen the Jewish religion used by defenders of Israel's actions to justify what they have done.
I'm all for calling out calling out a "hard line religious, authoritarian, sectarian, anti-women, homophonic idealogy" but if you're going to do that, then do it everywhere it exists, not just when it is an opportunity to target one particular community. I mean, if you're looking for hard line religious, authoritarian, sectarian, anti-women, homophobic ideology, you'll find it in much of the modern day Conservative Christian Right but when there are attacks from people who come from such a background, there isn't immediate calls for judging the entire community in the way that we are seeing here.
And this isn't just about individuals on this thread or within the right wing community, we've seen over the last 2 years how much of the Western leadership has permitted and facilitated Israel's actions and those actions are harming people directly in Palestine and several other countries and are inflaming tensions which are definitely resulting in more vitriol, hatred and acrimony between communities worldwide including in Australia where this attack happened. And that is not good for anyone. Pointing the finger at one specific group only serves to exacerbate the situation in the long run so if people want attacks like this to stop, they should call out all of the factors (and there are many more beyond what I've referred to here) and not just pick one direction and focus on that.
The gunmen indiscriminately shot Jewish people, including children, at a Jewish holiday festival. Finding 'evidence' of whatever veracity after the fact is completely meaningless in terms of motivation as the gunmen wouldn't have been in possession of such evidence.
Indeed, I haven't seen any actual evidence in media reporting of this that the gunmen were motivated by Gaza. This link seems to have been assumed due to the religion of the victims. These assumptions may be true but so far it is just an assumption. In terms of motivations we do know that they had Islamic state flags at the scene of the attack, that they had recently been to a region of the Philippines with known IS activity, and that the younger of the shooters was previously investigated for links to IS as far back as 2019. The authorities have explicitly stated that the attack was Islamic terrorism done with allegiance to IS.
I genuinely don't understand what is right wing about calling out a hard line religious, authoritarian, sectarian, anti-women, homophonic idealogy. Radical Islam fits every definition of right wing ideology as far as I can tell except that the adherents tend to be majority non-white.
It was obvious without the detector. No doubt he now say he was talking about a different picture on facebook, that is not AI. The real picture.
The attempt is to make the the images appear from that trip. There's nothing particularly untoward on the video. It's edited, but probably not AI. He speaks of fundraising for a village - post Oct7th. Not fundraising for the Israel governments, as some falsely claim.
I've already proven that's a lie. why are you still trying to lie? You posted the video in post #530.
Prior to that in post #497, #691, you said;
One of the people killed was reportedly involved with the IDF/Israel and had been pictured with signed artillery which was to be used against Palestine.
The image of him with artillery is not the one that was being discussed on here as having been false.
Pictured with signed artillery. The image of him. Not the video. You are not talking about the video in wither of those posts. These lies are really pathetic.
You posted about the image. You question whether it was AI. then you lied about it. And now you're still trying to weasel out of it.
Again, If I hadn't posted a video on which I based my comment and had posted this image I would acknowledge it was AI, but as I did the former and not the latter, that is pretty much irrelevant to me.
You quite literally posted about an image multiple times. And you were caught pushing a fake story. Even your story about the video sounds fake. Which you are ignoring and failing to acknowledge too.
If you need to tell yourself the clear picture exists in my head only, go for it. Multiple other posters have called you out too. And I guarantee many others can see the obvious. But keep digging, by all means.
Where have I said that I found the murder of 15 people in Australia or indeed 70,000 in Gaza acceptable ?
Did I suggest you said that. I think you've mixed up my post, with previous posts.
I only mentioned the suggestion they must have been recently radicalised.
I have seen no suggestion to back up that this father and son, while having ready access to an arsenal of weapons for years, were involved in any anti semitic activity or contemplating any act of terror let alone a mass shooting until now, which does leave open the question, no matter how much you may want to avoid it, as to why now where there is the strong possibility it was in connection to what has being going on in Gaza.
The lack of evidence of anti-semitic activity, is not evidence they held a different view. There's equally no evidence that held a different views. The fact they acted last weekend doesn't imply they recently formed there view. The mass murder is pretty big evidence they felt this way years. I've never heard of that said of any terror attack.
But there is a suggestion that this is the two suspects at a "Gas the Jews" protest in 2023. So not recently if that is accurate. I don't think as many photos of the father are released as the son though, and picture quality is not good. Again, absence of evidence, if not evidence the opposite.
https://x.com/antisemitism/status/2001000581259776417
Well he's wearing the same outfit in the video so i guess it's meant to be during the same purported trip. What are the odds that the photos are ai generated but not the video?
There is nothing in the video I posted that has to be reconsidered if it is the case that this image is AI.
And no one is trying to justify murder (on here anyway, there's a lot of that going on on the Gaza thread), speaking for myself I am saying why the murders were carried out must be understood. Why have you no interest in that being the case?
As I said, I didn't post any image or refer to an image that was posted to support my argument. The video contains everything I was referring to.
You can keep repeating the narrative that me not responding as you want me to is painting a clear picture, I know, and you know that picture is painted in your head and you're going to stick with that. Go for it.
The one of him with artillery is also clearly ai generated to me, and this, and another ai detector that I tried, agrees with this assessment
Weird how people are desperately trying to justify murder
I highly doubt that if a person went to a mosque and murdered a load of people, the same posters would ever dream of preaching about how we need to "understand" the reasons why the terrorist did it, or go trawling for excuses to justify a religious leader being killed in front of his family.
Yes it same images discussed here. From the same set of Facebook images linked to in the thread. The images that you said "you referred in post #497". Anyone can go back and check the posts/links. There were called out as AI here by me, multiple times. I was calling out the entire set, not only the 1 of 3 I reposted.
If there is a misunderstanding, and you were referring to a different, real image. Then by all means, clear up the confusion.
I have not circulated any story relating to false images. Go ahead and draw whatever conclusions you want.
You said he was pictured with signed artillery. If that is an AI image, then the story is false. So not a lie. Even if you didn't realise at the time that it was false. It's not a lie. Saying the fundraising was for IDF rather than a village, is misleading if not outright false too.
If you were fooled by the AI images, that ok. It happens. A reasonable person would say "sorry, I was fooled". Continuing to defend your claims about a victim is really painting a clear picture.
Pictured with the artillery…the AI images. No reference to a video.
False. The image of him with artillery is not the one that was being discussed on here as having been false. Try again.
And your last paragraph is a lie. I have not circulated any story relating to false images. Go ahead and draw whatever conclusions you want.
The area he referenced is in Israel, not Palestine. Whose land it should be in a deep and complex issue. But saying this is Israeli land was a factually correct, and in no way a justification for his murder. Saying it in October 2023 also in no way justifies the actions of Israel in the two years that followed. Those actions are also condemnable.
IDF is the Israeli state military. They do not need a Rabbi to fundraise for them. He said on the video, your donations go "here", and said the money was received for a village on the west bank. Again, this was in the wake of Oct 7th. Comparing that with fundraising for Hamas is disingenuous and idiotic. You now gone past ignorance and are actively lying.
What is the fascination with AI images? I didn't post the image, I didn't refer to the image to support my argument, why must I respond to it because you or anyone else demands it?
Are you really trying to claim you didn't refer to the images? Really going to keep digging. When I went back to the video I noticed it was post #530. But you definitely said #497, so I rechecked that
And post #497
One of the people killed was reportedly involved with the IDF/Israel and had been pictured with signed artillery which was to be used against Palestine. That was likely a coincident that he was shot here but the manufactured reality in which we live now would suggest that were he rumoured to be involved with Hamas, killing 15 other people in an attack on him would be argued here and elsewhere as being justified.
So to be crystal , the fascination with the AI images is the fact you referenced them in the thread, and questioned that they were AI. Then lied multiple times about the fact you did that when you were found out. Disgraceful really.
why must I respond to it because you or anyone else demands it?
You don't have to respond. You are free to ignore.
But circulating a fake story based on AI images, a false narrative about a video, about the victim of a terrorist attack makes anyone you look exceptionally bad. Denying it does not help. It takes a really piece of crap to generate and circulate these fake images/stories, especially during the funerals. If it was all a misunderstanding, a reasonable person would explain, apologise, etc. They wouldn't be forced to, but they'd probably grasp the implication of not doing so. But you do you, and the rest of us will draw our own conclusions.
I have clearly said a few posts back that murder is murder.
