Some mad videos emerging from Bondi beach in Sydney. Gun man opened fire. Seems to have been arrested from the videos I've seen, looks like multiple casualties.
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AugustRain
freebritney
One thing I learned on other threads is that many people who support Israel's actions or keep throwing the anti-semitism banner around aren't actually pro-Jewish. They are much more anti-Muslim than anything else. Many of them couldn't care less about Israel or the Jewish people. It's an important differentiator when discussing the hatred and trying to understand weird opinions. Not all, but definitely the folks that don't answer any questions about Israel's actions.
LOL It doesn’t matter what YOU think about religious conflicts - what matters is what the people committing the murders think.
And THEY think they are killing people for following the “wrong” sort of Islam, or indeed Christianity in the past, and therefore they are killing in the name of Islam.
Do you also claim to know better than the Crusaders what their real motives were? Or is that only Islamic extremists?
Of course it matters. The point is that ideology doesn’t explain terrorism. Terrorism has political causes throughout history and this is still the same.
The Brevik lad was driven by an extremist ideology (white nationalism), but ideology does not explain why he moved from belief to mass murder when millions who share his views don't. I'd need to look into the specifics, but I would imagine he was in echo chambers where multiculturalism or Muslims were framed as an existential threat, and I believe in his case enormous social isolation. I'd be sure he had a closed worldview in which violence felt justified and urgent.
Islamist extremists radicalise within environments shaped by war, repression, propaganda networks etc, which are political and social situations.
The British girls who joined ISIS don’t disprove this. Radical families or imams etc clearly played a role but those networks to do this only existed because wars in Iraq and Syria created the situation for ISIS in the first place. All islamic terror groups, I'd argue all terror groups generally are born this way, from political strife.
Ideology explains why they were attracted but politics explains why there was a terrorist group to join.
Focusing on ideology I'm sure feels satisfying to many on here, but it won't ever stop terrorism - it will just repeat the same mistakes. Treating terrorism as a product of political breakdown allows targeted policing, surveillance, and intervention against extremist radicalisers without blaming Muslims as a group, because these situations are outside the hands of ordinary Muslims.
The goal of all countries should be stable, inclusive societies in the Middle East if the goal is to tackle terrorism, they themselves also have to work to this. That isn’t about blaming the West, but it’s also obvious that destabilising wars and support for repression have made things worse, not better. Gaza is no different, and will create its own band of terrorists and we'd be insane to think they will come about purely due to religion and ignore the total political breakdown and ethnic cleansing that is going on there as the driving factor.
Tackling ideology matters - but without political stability, it will never be enough
So just to be clear you think Islamic terrorists do have religious motivation but you think people are speaking guff when they link Islamic terrorism with extremist forms of Islam? Would you say similar about Anders Breivik, that we should consider politics only and not white nationalist belief systems?
What political stress made young British girls of Bangladeshi origin run off to join ISIS? You don't think the extremist idealogies of the households they grew up in played a part? We know the father of one of the girls attended rallies of Anjem Choudary, I would say that is more relevant than political stress.
Denying the motivations of these people actually does a massive disservice to Muslim people who don't agree with extremist Islamists. There should be a much greater crackdown on mosques and orginisations which preach hatred against the west.
That's not what I was referring to, I posted a video of the guy in question.
Are you saying that video is a different man, or is false?
Can you show where you saw that claim made or a claim that this picture you've posted is AI.
Lads, you might need to screw you heads on and open your eyes a little. The photos to like laughably bad AI.
I didn`t say we became an autocratic state similar to Iran, but the Catholic Church for many year from the foundation of the state up until the relatively present used its religious clout to corrupt democracy.
Women may have had the token of equal voting rights, but the Catholic church hierarchy ensured that it was just that. A token. You may be too young to remember that up until the late 1960`s women were subjected to the degrading ritual of "churching" to cleanse them after giving birth before they could attend mass and the church showed how little it really valued women, or indeed their young children, with their torpedoing of the then Minister for Health Noel Browne`s proposed Mother and Child Scheme.
Their demonizing of unmarried mothers and the treatment of them and their offsprings through their church ran Magdalene Homes and orphanages was nothing other than sheer barbarism. Over 10,000 women and girls were brutalizes in Magdalene Homes between 1922 and 1966. Right up until quite recent years they showed their disdain for the lives of women by using their clout to deny them the legal rights to contraceptives.
You are still putting words in my mouth. Saying “religious extremism is almost always political under the surface" does not mean extremists lack religious motivation - it means religious motivation alone does not explain where, when, or why it turns into organised mass violence. Politics does.
Stop claiming I said religion is irrelevant - I said it is used, not that it doesn’t matter.
Don't know much about boki haram but I guarantee it will be similar.
Re Ukraine, you are assuming that the same political stress should produce the same kind of extremism everywhere. That’s not how radicalisation works. Political breakdown and war create the conditions for extremism, be it religious/ left /right/ jingoism etc. don't know how this can be denied, echoed throughout history.
Ukraine has a strong national identity, not religious. The political shock produced mobilisation, but religion wasn’t the available vehicle, nationalism was.
When the state collapses in many Muslim countries, religious ideology can become the organising frame for violence rather natuonalism. Same trigger (war or collapse), different expression (nationalist vs religious).
I'm not saying your saying it, but this is far more correct and supported than the "they do it because they are Muslim" guff repeated here ad nauseum.
Apparently this is one of the victims of the attack in Bondi, a rabbit who was referenced on here earlier today.
Despite his views expressed above which clearly show him to be supportive of the IDF and against any Premise of Palestines right to exist, his death on Sunday was coincidental. But for those who want to view the attack as solely one of antisemitism, and who point out that it was thousands of miles from Gaza, what does it say then that one of the victims was himself involved in and supportive of Israel's actions in Gaza?
Weve been told repeatedly to not conflate Jewishness with support for Israel but here's an example of how widespread support for Israel's actions is within Jewish communities.
I'm still not suggesting that this justifies the attack at the weekend, it most definitely doesn't, but it is reasonable for it to be considered as to what motivated the attackers.
Israeli supporters, and Jewish communities cannot ask us to ignore or discard everything that has happened in Gaza and instead listen to their grief and pain over this attack. Too much has happened for too long.
The cheif rabbi of ireland this evening saying that the photography of the attack online "very graphic". Where is he seeing this graphic photography? I haven't seen any despite actively looking.
Forgive me for taking example after example after example after example of IDF behaviour and being influenced by it.
Anyway, this thread is about the anti semitic attack on a Jewish festival by a terrorist so I'll leave it there.
Sure, I don't disagree with that. Do you think that there should be no discussion about why this event happened? This is a discussion board you know.
I did read what you said. You said 'religious extremism is almost always political under the surface'. That implies that Islamic terrorists have primarily political motivations rather than religious motivations.
Now you are backtracking to claim that 'Occupation, civil war, repression, and state collapse, are precursors for extremists to take hold and use religion as a tool to exert power.' I never denied any such thing. But religious extremism is only taking hold if religious extremists exist in the first place. What occupation, civil war. repression and state collapse happened in Nigeria that prompted Boko Haram? What brutal repression necessitated the Jemaah Islamiyah to kill 200 people in Indonesia? Why haven't extremist fanatics taken root amongst Ukranians and the Ukranian diaspora in response to the Russian invasion.
You say 'It highlights these movements are about power, control and coercion and using Islam as a tool to do this'. Are Islamic state and other attempts at setting up caliphates about power and control only? You genuinely don't think that an Islamic state might be motivated by Islam. You're claim that Islamic terrorism isn't theological as it is not evenly distributed across Muslim populations ignores the fact that there is no universal version of the Koran as there is for the Bible or Talmud. Extreme salafist idealogy is associated with terror, violence and repression, wherever it becomes embedded. You cannot link extremism to certain sects of Islam and also pretend that there is no theological basis to these extremists acts.
Sure, hamas, who live streamed themselves committing the most heinous atrocities on October 7 suddenly turned over a new leaf. Believable. You really sound like you think hamas can do no wrong.
Literally the chain of posts I quoted. wtf?
You asked the below;
…Maybe they were 'radicalised online' Islamists or could be they were just plain old anti-Semites with a death wish.
I provided relevant context.
The son was connected to individuals who were previously arrested/charged for ISIS
You replied, with connected in quotes for some reason.
'connected' but apparently not deemed connected enough in 2019 to be considered an ongoing threat.
I clarified;
His connection is that a guy he was hanging out with was a local ISIS leader. There was a terror plot foiled by ASIO. The guys involved were arrested. The young guy was 18, wasn’t involved. But his name went on a list as a know associate.
So what if his name was on a list?
The last line is a bizarre response, and an absolutely bizarre chain of posts to get defensive over.
The guy who kissed his captor has explained that it was under duress. Similar to the others who had to act friendly to them on the world stage. People will do what they have to do to get home
It was a literal handover, how many cases has there been of handovers been cancelled in the moment? He was safe at that point and acted of his own volition. No matter what Israeli PR told him to say after they got a hold of him. Same goes for the grandmother shaking her captors hands or the girls smiling at Hamas representatives.
Hamas captured and killed many Israelis, and I've no doubt being held captive was horrific, but I'm not swallowing the extent of the narrative Israeli officials or supporters would try to force feed me so as to dehumanise those which they are butchering.
Do you understand that there are different strands within Islam, many of whom HATE each other?
Where to start.
This isn’t the big gotcha you think it is.
Pointing out sectarian hatred doesn’t undermine my argument, it supports it. Shia/ Sunni division existed for a thousand years, Isis didn't.
Groups that primarily kill Muslims are not “defending Islam”; they are enforcing power and obedience, using theology as a label/motivation. Political movements focused on domination always turn inward, because coercion of their own population is how they survive.
Religious Wars in Europe didn’t exist because the victims were all Christians. I’m sure the heretics burned at the stake would be surprised that they weren’t dying in the name of Christianity.
Again, either is this the gotcha you think it is. Read some books, religious war in Europe was driven by state power, territory, and politics, with religion used to legitimise violence. Not caused by the religion alone. Same thing here.
No one denies extremists believe they represent “true Islam", just like all religious violence that goes horribly against the intented teachings. Belief isn’t explanation. Politics is.
Anyway, this is gone way off topic.
Murdered by their captors……according to the IDF.
Want to take a guess as to my view of the reliability on statements from the IDF with respect to acts within Gaza?
I didn't claim I could access anyone’s inner thoughts, in fact I said that perpetrators are genuinely motivated by religious belief. My point is not psychological.
When you examine patterns across decades and regions, extremist violence and radicalization always emerges in contexts of political breakdown, which can spill into other areas.
Occupation, civil war, repression, and state collapse, are precursors for extremists to take hold and use religion as a tool to exert power. I had given valid examples.
I have no doubt individual attackers believe they are acting for religious reasons (as with Charlie Hebdo or Rushdie), but it does not explain why such beliefs turn into organised violence in some places and not others.
Political conditions like listed above almost always explain where, when, and how religious extremism becomes violent (and not just in Islam, terrorism in general).
Nor did I "blame the West for everything". Saying foreign wars and destabilisation have contributed to grievances is not the same as saying they are the sole cause, you need to re-read.
Lastly, pointing out that most victims are Muslim does not deny sectarian hatred, it highlights that these movements are about power, control, and coercion and using Islam as a tool to do this, and not primarily about “defending Islam.”
Illiberal beliefs are widespread globally terrorism isn't. The difference lies in political conditions. If Islamic terrorism were primarily theological, it would be evenly distributed across Muslim populations and it isn’t.
Youre neglecting to mention that the hostages who were able to have a makeshift Hanukkah celebration while starving and freezing underground were later murdered by their captors. Hardly an example of humane treatment when they ended up dead.
Maybe a propensity for hateful acts or violence lies within the individuals rather than it being inherently an element of a religion? Any chance that might be the case?
Religion has long been co-opted to be a trait or allegiance by which to identify friends or foe, but that is much more a case of humans using it as a ready made marker than the evil intent having arisen out of the religion itself.
Not a single Gazan treated a single hostage kindly
On what basis are you making this statement?
We've seen Israeli hostages receive birthday cakes, we've seen them celebrate Hannukah while in captivity, we've seen them kiss their captors at a moment when they did not have to do such a thing. We've seen them shakes hands with them when again, they were under no pressure to do so.
I'm not suggesting they were treated like they were on vacation, but to claim not a single Gazan treated a single hostage kindly is not supported by evidence.
How many images have we of Gazans being treated by or reacting to their Israeli captors in ways as I've given examples of here?
Crikey - you really do have a very active imagination. I certainly didn't have Madeleine McCann on the talking point list.
There is so much wrong with this that I can’t even be bothered but I will point out that this is particularly ignorant:
What is also a fact is the majority of victims of Islamic terrorism are Muslim themselves, which strongly undermines the idea that these movements are about defending Islam.
Do you understand that there are different strands within Islam, many of whom HATE each other? Saying that they’re not doing it in the name of their version of “true” Islam means that the Religious Wars in Europe didn’t exist because the victims were all Christians. I’m sure the heretics burned at the stake would be surprised that they weren’t dying in the name of Christianity.
Ireland was not a Catholic Autocratic state on a par with Iran, what kind of mad revisionism is this? We did not technically become a democracy, we were a democracy from the beginning of this state with equal voting rights for men and women, and freedom of religion for all faiths enshrined within the constitution.
We were a corrupt democracy which allowed the Catholic Church too much authority, but we were in no way similar to Iran. To even compare the two countries is laughable.
If someone I loved was kidnapped, I'd hope for their return and would express nothing but hope that they would be safe.
That would be foremost in my mind, not discarding them on the basis of a specific narrative. He mentally abandoned his daughter in that moment.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting it was a pleasant experience by any stretch, I'm sure it was life changing for many of them, the lucky ones who survived and got home, but immediately when Emily's father made that statement in October 2023 I thought "that's weird".
We've seen a very obvious difference in the appearance of hostages who have been held in captivity in Gaza versus those that have been held by the IDF. Everything we've seen the Israeli's accuse Hamas of, we've seen them do the same and worse. Except they've done it to more people and for longer periods of time.
I don't mean to sound facetious, but how on earth would you know that religious extremism is almost always political? Have you some special ability to see inside the minds and hearts of all religious extremists?
You mention 'pawns carrying it out think they are doing it for religious reasons'. Maybe they are doing it for religious reasons? You think the Charlie Hebdo massacre was because of geopolitics and not because of anger that/how their prophet was depicted? You think Salman Rushdie and others associated with the Satanic Verses who have been killed injured were targeted because of geopolitics and not due to anger at what they felt was blasphemy?
Not everything is the fault of the west. You are engaging in some kind of weird reverse racism that you disbelieve people's stated motives or remove any true intent on their behalf. People in the ME and North Africa do have minds of their own, not everything they do is solely or even at all motivated by the west.
You also say that 'the majority of victims of Islamic terrorism are muslims, which undermines the belief they are doing it in the name of Islam' . That statement ignores the fact that many muslim victims of Islamic terrorists within the ME/North Africa are different sects of Islam, and thus may still be regarded as legitimate targets by fanatics. Within the west we have seen that attacks at Christian and Jewish holidays/festivals and places of worship are frequent targets of Islamic terrorists, as well as targeting of gay people such as the Pulse nightclub shooting.
How are the West responsible for Boko Haram for example? They formed of their own volition,as they want to take over and Islamise Nigeria.
Even Afghanistan, which was an illegal war; the US tried to instill education amongst the young, particlularly women. They spent years and millions to train an independent Afghan army to oppose the Taliban, and that army rolled over within a few days after the US left, their president fleeing with millions of dollars meant for his citizens. The Afghan people allowed the Taliban to create an extreme patriarchical system, were women are forbidden from even speaking. That is not on the West. Afghan society at large is at fault for that. Contrast with Ukraine, were the people and President stayed and fought for the country they believed in.
I never mentioned kicking Muslims out of Europe, that is your slant on what I said. Though we need to be honest about the fact that many aspects of Islam are opposed to what Europeans value about the West; freedom of expression, women's rights, rights for gay people, respect and tolerance for other belief systems. Look at women's rights and rights of homosexuals throughout Islamic countries in Asia, Middle East and North Africa, and contrast with neighbouring countries of other religions. Not all that can be explained by western interference.
This is frankly bizarre. To hear you people, you’d think Hamas had saved them from a natural disaster and that the families are being ungrateful.
They were all terrified that the girls would be taken as sex slaves. Was that really an unreasonable fear, given what other Islamist groups have done?
If your daughter is 19, you’re going to hope she survives and gets out even years later. If she’s 8 - well, I don’t know, maybe, at least in the moments straight after the horror of learning that her stepmother and many others were murdered, and not knowing what fate awaited her, maybe the thought that it would be better for her not to be tortured for years might well cross your mind. For instance that’s what I think about Madeleine McCann: imagine if she’s been taken and is being used for child porn films- wouldn’t you prefer that your child had died immediately rather than undergoing that horror day after day? Same thing only worse because you know she’s already traumatised by the killings she’s just seen and been taken somewhere where everyone hates her.
I`m not that sure that as you put it the U.S. meddling with the Shah was not the reason for Iran becoming a theocracy. The CIA hand in hand with the Shah`s SAVAK secrets police played a major part in murdering any opposition that was opposed to him leaving a vacuum that the Ayatollahs to move into. I`m not sure either that the same would not have happened if the circumstances were not the same in a European or Western country. When we became an independent state, while technically becoming a democracy in reality we became pretty much a Catholic autocratic state.
There appears to be people pushing this narrative that Europe and the Western world will wake up some morning and that democracy will be a thing of the past and we will all be governed by Sharia Law. Personally I believe democracy has much more to worry about from the far right who are pushing this anti Muslim narrative to further their own agenda.
But they did treat her very badly, though luckily not nearly as badly as what he was - not unreasonably - terrified of, namely that she would be treated as a sex slave, like the Yazidi girls taken by ISIS or the Christian girls kidnapped by Boko Haram.
I find it shocking that you don’t understand that a father might well feel that he’d prefer his daughter to have a quick painless death than live like the Yazidi girls did. Rape and beatings. She was 8.
Not a single Gazan treated a single hostage kindly. In fact many survivors report that Hamas had to prevent them from being lynched by civilians. Hamas was not being humane (you don’t get to take someone hostage and then claim to have been nice to them FFS) - they wanted some of them to live in order to use them as exchange value. Nothing else.
But the neck of you daring to criticise him. It’s shocking.
I don't recall any other hostage families expressing the same sentiment? He seemed to be the only one.
