Michael Milne is an awful scrummager. It's why he was leapfrogged by Boyle at Leinster last season and why he could never break into the Leinster or Ireland set up with regularity, despite being at the perfect age point for it.
He's significantly worse than Porter in that regard and not someone I ever want to see start a serious test game for Ireland.
not someone I ever want to see start a serious test game for Ireland.
This seems way too harsh, the guy's only 26 and could yet improve. Where was JGP when he was 26, for example.
MOD Jim please stop making the cohesian and 8 from Leinster point as to why players should be picked. youve said it countless times in this thread. we dont need to see you repeat it every few posts.
Claiming players from other provinces have too much to catch up on is unfair on everyone. the players/coaches. cohesian isnt an issue
It's not harsh in the slightest. Milne has been in the Leinster, Munster and Ireland system for years and still struggles to scrummage competently. My abiding memory of him is getting his shot in the Champions Cup against La Rochelle a few seasons ago. Came in with 20 minutes to go and the set piece battle we were winning turned into a La Rochelle rout. It didn't really matter on the scoreboard as we were well ahead, but he got his chance and couldn't capitalise.
He's 27 in February and I just struggle to think he'll ever come good now. Which is a shame because he's clearly an above average rugby player in every other facet of his game. There's always the chance he can rapidly improve as a scrummager. Tom Clarkson has become a competent tight head remarkably quickly over the last 18 months for instance. But as recently as last month Milne was part of a Munster scrum that was demolished by Leinster's. I just don't see any improvement in him.
Doing what? Your initial post was about squad sizes. South Africa's autumn squad was 36 players, ours was 34 players.
You've an awful bee in your bonnet over Milne, since he joined us… interesting. Literally any time someone mentions him on here you're straight in saying he's an awful scrummager. He isn't, I think you need to revise your opinion.
I believe that Milne was injured when Boyle got a call. I also believe Lee Baron was injured when Gus got a call. But I'm no expert on Leinster props.
Your last statement is actually laughably ironic.
Here, funnily enough though is a comment from a Munster fan, on the Munster thread, from smack bang in the middle of the game in question (20 April 2024):
Also some interesting posts on the relevant match thread on Munsterfans from the game, where, amongst other things you have posts stating things like "our front row just aren't at the level we need" etc etc.
And, just to remind everyone - you started this out by claiming Loughman had some sort of great record against Wilco Louw. He's had one game against him in his whole career, 18 months ago.
You have refused to respond / acknowledge the fact that Andrew Porter was part of a Leinster scrum that dominated the Bulls in the URC Final this past June.
Yeah, my problems with Milne clearly only started once he signed for Munster in, checks notes, May 2024. This wasn't a provincial pissing match. Why are you trying to spin it that way?
You can check previous Leinster threads for discussion on Milne and how he could be developed into a better all round player. For years we've been talking about his weakness in the scrum and it still hasn't been resolved. The search function here isn't great, but dig far back enough and you'll see a lot of criticism of his poor scrummaging.
Here's one here discussing Milne's move to Munster.
He really is a poor scrummager. There's a reason he was behind so many at leinster. Himself and John Ryan got annihilated against porter and Furlong this season.
I'd have Bishti and Niall Smyth as far better prospects than Mullan currently, Bishti more that likely too young, Niall Smyth is a bit of a freak so its certainly possible but he needs to prove he can remain injury free for long enough to get Leinster minutes.
Is it fair to assume that if you're quoting a poster from Boards and indeed Munsterfans to back up your argument, that there was nothing in those match recaps about the Munster scrum or Loughman in particular?
There are no detailed match recaps to be found, from the cursory look I had.
Those posts though were posted literally in the middle of the game in question, and no one challenged the view put forward either.
Once again here - the OP posted up about how Loughman has done "really well" against Wilco Louw, as some sort of argument that he should be selected to start at LHP for Ireland, and he (and you fwiw) have refused to engage repeatedly with the fact that Andrew Porter won multiple penalties off Wilco Louw as recently as June.
Absolute nonsense this. You're trying to make this a provincial pissing contest based on an opinion that Michael Milne is an awful scrummager which, for the record, he absolutely is.
Ireland were beaten up all over the field against South Africa. The scrums did not go well and porter is getting the full blame but porter was not doing anything on purpose. James Ryan with his 20 minute red card, Crowley and prendergast with their yellows, that’s 40 minutes down men from real brain dead decisions. and given the pressure we were under at scrum there was some shocking silly mistakes that lead to even more scrums.
For me it’s all about the coaches, lineout and scrum are not in good, strength in depth is not really being developed and Farrells decisions do not make sense. For examples, as a Munster man I am delighted Farrell got game time but with the Irish cap on it makes no sense at his age, Casey did not get enough game time, furlong played too much game time. I am on record previously saying the coaching ticket is stale and I think it is. You can argue the players are not there and that’s fine but we have control over the coaches. For me Farrell must make some tough choices now.
I think what the coaches need to do is stop relying on Leinster players so much. Once upon a time they were undoubtedly the strongest team in the British and Irish Isles and many of those players deserved their places at the time. Times have changed and it's time to diversify the Irish team if we want to start winning again
I'd imagine the thinking behind Tom Farrell is for the 2026 edition of the 6 Nations, I don't think he'll make the next world cup! I think somebody gave a statistic a few months back that finishing 3rd in the 6 nations is worth around the same as winning the world cup in financial terms so I'm glad to see evidence that they aren't trying to 'build towards the World Cup' at least
I'll remind you of your claim.
on that day, the Bulls won multiple scrum penalties against MunsterMunster’s scrum gave away at least two penalties early in that game, something covered in match recaps of the game.
on that day, the Bulls won multiple scrum penalties against Munster
Munster’s scrum gave away at least two penalties early in that game, something covered in match recaps of the game.
I’m asking you to provide the detail from the match recaps that you’re referencing here.
Because my recollection is that Munster went very well at scrum time in that game. The stats, albeit over the full game, seem to bear that out:
Even if they did give away at least 2 scrum penalties, the stats suggest they got more than parity at scrum time. That’s all part of the context.
But since I asked for that detail, you've reverted to quoting a single post from here and a single post from Munsterfans to back up your point, rather than anything from actual journalists. And even then, with regards this:
Those posts though were posted literally in the middle of the game in question, and no one challenged the view [that our front row just aren't at the level we need] put forward either.
… literally isn't true. I rarely ever use munsterfans, but someone literally replied with the following:
Think the front row have been pretty solid. Pack is starting to get out muscled but I wouldn’t single them out.
Here’s a broader point. If I started to back-up my arguments with posts from Munsterfans, how do you think that would be received here?
With regards actual details from match recaps, here’s each mention of the scrum until Loughman went off, from RTE:
This suggests that, at a minimum, we were pretty solid. I'm not suggesting Loughman is some scrum titan here, I'm just calling for a bit of factual accuracy.
With regards Porter, you know my thoughts on him. Overall, I think he's a pretty poor scrummager, even if he has some good days at scrum time like the URC final. He's incredibly prone to penalties in general, something you've defended him on in the past e.g. 6 penalties vs Wales being downplayed and "getting it slightly wrong". It's incredibly lenient.
But what are your thoughts on Porter? Cos from your posts here it seems you're defending his scrum performance on Saturday, and pinning the blame on the ref, with Marx getting away with things.
Which I don't think is anything close to what actually happened.
But fwiw, you've refused to respond / acknowledge that a front-row getting subbed at 51 minutes is not indictative that they were "hauled ashore" or played poorly, at scrumtime or otherwise. Are you going to be consistent and suggest Venter and Thomas do Toit were "hauled ashore" on Saturday?
for me using the 6 nations to build for the World Cup is not the correct thing to do. They should have used the last 4 games to build for this 6 nations.
Also I have no problem on the team being mainly made up of Leinster team starters, but I do have a problem with them picking Leinster non starters for the Irish Squad even for development.
For example The sight of Sheehan kelleher and Gus McCarthy in the squad is wrong. It sends the wrong signal to the players in the other provinces.
No pissing contest, just addressing the fact the Clegg seems to be opining this at every given opportunity recently as soon as there's any mention of Milne, and I disagree with him on it, it's usually all or nothing with him when it comes to player ability.
He's entitled to his opinion of course. Milne has gone well for us in the scrum to my eye and looks to be a good signing… I'm not sure a few penalties called against him by his more experienced international colleagues is enough to convince me yet of "awful" scrummaging (plus I felt at the time a couple of them were marginal calls).
I can make a very educated guess that Clegg, myself and many other Leinster fans on this site will have seen Michael Milne play exponentially more times than you have to make our own conclusions on him as a scrummager.
It's not too late for him, not by any means. However, right now, he's a crap scrummager and that is the reality for him. It is what it is.
For you to come in here and try to make it about criticism of him since he moved to Munster is trying to make this a provincial spat that it doesn't need to be.
The reason why its worth pointing out that he's a crap scrummager is because we're talking about him as an option in the Ireland squad following a match where our scrum got absolutely annihilated, so it is a relevant point whether it hurts your feelings or not.
If that's the line you want to go with, though, then I'll remember that next time you or anyone else brings up Sam Prendergast's defence.
l saw Milne play a few times for Leinster, mostly off the bench. I liked him and I never noticed any problems for him in the scrum.
No feelings hurt here Pete, don't worry about that, I appreciate your concern though! I couldn't really care less how he played 3 years ago for ye, only how he's going recently, so maybe search inside that great big lovely heart of yours and give him another chance. If Stephen Archer can lock out scrums in big games in South Africa having spent his early and mid-20s being a deckchair maybe Milne can learn and improve too…
You're entitled to your opinion, personally I'm seeing differently in his appearances for us… which is why I find it strange Clegg is constantly hammering the "crap/awful" scrummager line at every opportunity.
Milne looks solid enough in the scrum to my untrained eye, solid enough to be Munster first choice already, he's very good in the loose. Made a bigger impression than Lee Barron for sure down this way.
I wasn't talking about him in an international context btw, just on how he's 'awful' and 'crap' at scrummaging when I'm not seeing that. He's been in and around Ireland squads the last couple of years and played against Spain so he must have something going for him that the international coaches like. There's a plethora of props log-jammed behind Healy and Porter for almost the last decade so time will tell I guess on the Ireland front for Milne and others. If he turns out to be crap at scrummaging, I'll do similar to Sam in defence and I'll hold my hands up!
Milne is a grand player but was firmly behind Boyle at Leinster and would be behind McCarthy if he'd stayed.
He's still young enough to improve his scrum technique with more game time, so hopefully that's what happens.
Your first post in response to mine opened on a provincial argument. I've linked you to posts, when Milne was still a Leinster player, highlighting my reservations about him as a scrummager. You'll also see other posters issues as well. My position on him has been the same for years now.
You have ignored that and now gone on a different tangent. It's obvious what you're doing but whatever. You've worn down everyone with the usual nonsense. Have at it.
Is there not an obvious difference between:
and
I don't think it's accurate to claim those positions are the same.
I would have thought from those posts that it was obvious I felt Milne's scrummaging was bad. In the space of a year he again failed to kick on and instead moved from competing with Healy for 2nd choice to falling to 4th choice.
These positions are in fact the same. And I'll ask you again, like I did in the Leinster thread before, to stop misrepresenting my positions.
I'm sorry but there is no reasonable interpretation where these are in fact the same positions.
It's fair to say they are both critical towards his scrummaging.
But they are not equally critical. One set of them are way more critical.
It's entirely reasonable to hold these are the same position. Because they are. You're now just arguing over language because you don't have a point of substance to make.
It's pretty obvious from those posts that I thought his scrummaging was bad. It's a consistently held position.
The difference in language is the substantive point…
For sure. If anything then financially speaking the World Cup should be used as a training session for the 6 Nations
