All of Izzy, Soroka and Baird are better in the lineout, and can shift to the 2nd row if needed, as well as playing 6. That's more valuable than shifting between 6 and 8, where the only major difference is controlling the ball at the back of a scrum. I'd expect any international backrow player to be able to sub at 8 in a pinch.
Kidney dined out on winning a Slam with Eddie's team, while leading us to worse results year on year. He is the worst coach in the professional era, and wasted one of our most talented generations of players. We played our worst, ugliest ball with him in charge. Watching games from that era is a misery, just turgid stuff. He completely fucked up our chances in 2011 by insisting on ROG and Murray.
And in this period, since Gavin Coombes made his debut, the players in his position have done the following:
Jack Conan:
5 URCs/Pro14s/Whatever you're having yourself
1 Champions Cup
3 6N Championships, including 2 Grand Slams
2 Lions Tours
Caelan Doris
4 URCs/Pro14s/Whatever you're having yourself
2 6N Championships, including 1 Grand Slam
2 World Rugby XVs Team of the Year selections
Ireland Captain
==
Gavin Coombes scores tries, Conan and Doris win things.
Can we at least leave Soroka out of this discussion? He hasn't even played CC for Leinster.
Does the no.8 not bind the locks together in the scrum?
I understand why that would happen for alot of games. Even most games. I don't understand why that would happen for the vast majority of games.
I've said this stat many times, but in the lead up to the 2023 RWC, outside of the 4 incumbents in the back-row, there were around 40 mins given to other players in 19 Tier 1 games.
And I'd go as far as suggesting that Farrell has become more conservative since then.
Because, as a rugby player, he is nowhere near the level of the two ahead of him.
At some point we need to accept that while Coombes goes well for Munster in the URC, he doesn't have the pedigree of the other two at the highest level.
I don't think any international backrow would struggle with grabbing the arses of his locks. Fair point on Soroka, I expect that to change this year, injuries permitting.
It's becoming a major problem because of the selection this autumn. It should have been Osborne at 12*.
- I also have a theory (see below: I fully expect to be called a tinfoil hat wearer!)
Full Back Theory: Keenan was told to hold off on his hip surgery until post summer tour as Farrell had figured he could start Osborne at FB this Autumn, and for the 6N if necessary.
A mistake.
Building time into Osborne at FB when the greater issue is clearly** at 12.
Thats also why JOB wasn't called up **originally**he should have started at FB v NZ.
Osborne needs consistent game time at 12 and to start developing him there alongside the different personnel (esp Half-Backs).
*As well as Stu played v NZ and has consistently played for Ulster and Ireland he should not have started at 12 this Autumn. I say this acknowledging that McCloskey also fully deserved his spot. He's 33 and therein lies the continued issue within this team (as per your points).
So who are you leaving out of the team then to make way for Gavin Coombes?
The captain or the two-time touring Lion?
I'd leave out Conan for a small number of said 19 games to build squad depth, give guys a chance and check out alternatives that may be required in the event of injury.
Because I think the premise that we should always pick our absolute best 15 and 23, without any eye towards squad building and evolution down the line, is a massively flawed one.
I'm using Gavin Coombes as an example of the selection conservatism and over reliance on aging but proven players. Not playing Osborne at 12 and playing Aki in the 23 shirt is another example of this. As is failing to give anyone other than JVDF game time in the 7 position. Putting Ian Henderson on the bench against NZ. Playing Healy, Murray and POM to the nth degree to give them a send off. Healy in particular who was gone well over the hill.
If we persist with this selection approach we will get exactly what we've always got come WC time. A QF exit.
The next option has 3 caps
Isn't the whole point of this debate that he's not the next option?
can't get a look-in
He has been in the vast majority of squads going back four years. He's had plenty of look-ins. After that, it's on him.
MOD EDIT
Which entirely overlooks Andy Farrell's role in the selection of the team…..
So, you want the same 23 playing day in day out in the international games and then cross fingers and toes and hope we might do well in a RWC.
Mentality like this is exactly why we lost the last QF. Players that win things 🙈
I very clearly meant "it's on him to make the most of his opportunities in camp and it appears he has not done so to date".
Even if you are convinced that Farrell only picks based on "cohesion" and "systems", does that not beg the question why Coombes can't learn the "systems" and become "cohesive" after four years of trying?
We know that this loyalty to players is a real thing with Farrell. Im sure it has fostered team spirit and helped continuity but there is that point where it becomes dysfunctional. Case in point your example of Healy.
Again there was an alternative (Boyle) and it was sad to see Healy totting about the place for Ireland during the 6N. To the detriment of the team.
I do think that decision also impacted on Porter and his effectiveness. Flogged in games. To my eyes he has lost his edge. Unsurprisingly.
Dont forget Beahlam! Why not Clarkson?
I'd treat Coombes as a slightly different selection matter.
edit: I was fully in the POM still deserves his spot camp. Always. But absolutely not for that final 6N game v Italy. That is the prime example of where Ireland needed a younger option off the bench. Same for Murray.
But I haven't said Farrell only picks based on "cohesion" and "systems". I have consistently said I think it's a factor.
Note: Not "bias". Not "only".
A, singular, factor.
And like I've also said previously, even if we grant you that Coombes isn't doing it in training, I think it would be a mistake for Farrell to judge solely on training, as there isn't anywhere near as much contact in training as there is in matches.
Equally, you're painting the picture that non-selection is evidence Coombes "can't learn the systems" while overlooking that it's also evidence of Farrell's conservatism. I can repeat my stat - 40 minutes to non-incumbents in 19 Tier 1 games prior to the RWC.
It indeed, also overlooks the role of injury here. Some players need an opportunity with injury to competitors before being able to prove their worth when getting an opportunity. Would you go as far as saying McCloskey "can't learn the systems"? It'd be the exact same argument prior to him getting opportunites. It would be incredibly harsh to pin that on McCloskey, and I feel the same for Coombes.
I get it; you think Coombes isn't good enough. What I'm saying is it might also be entirely possible that Coombes is good enough and that this is a selection mistake by Farrell.
that is revisionist history of the highest order
Even after the this weekend we're still on the Farrell knows best and shall never be questioned train.
How low do we need yo finish in the next 6 nations before you admit that Maybe Farrell is not actually infallible?
mod edit
I was asking you where has Coombes not shown the same level as the other 2.
He's been an excellent performer at club level, questions are asked as to why he's not included which on a discussion forum is not outrageous.
There's something else a miss as to why he's not being selected & its not as simple as to wheather is he better than the other 2.
Remember he can also cover lock, something the other 2 can't. Seeing Henderson on the pitch Sat made my heart sink a little
I don't think anyone is calling for him to be a permanent selection...just have a look at him v japan/italy/Wales/Aus
The world won't fall apart if Conan is left out of match day for a few games or god forbid Doris gets a break from having to play practically every test match along with Beirne.
Exactly this. As far as I can tell, VdF has now started 40 of the last 46 tests. Those he hasn't are:
If VdF were to be injured for a big game, it's a massive issue. Timoney seems to be our back-up 7. He has all of 80 mins vs Georgia last season, 0 minutes the season before, and 80 mins vs Fiji the season before that.
This is the point I'm trying to make, it's not just Gavin Coombes but there are others that we should be assessing in games like that vs Japan and vs the likes of Italy and Wales in the 6N.
Management don't see it as an issue, Doris goes across & Conan slots in.
Where the real issue occurs is if VDf and one of the other 2 are out then its a massive issue.
Timoney is knocking around squads long enough & doesnt seem to be a genuine alternative...move on from him then I say
He is quite literally the worst coach since 2000, by winning percentage. We got worse every year he was in charge. We wasted one of most talented teams in 2012, thanks in large part to his selection decisions and terrible coaching.
Ireland should be looking at Doris as an alternative to vdF.
I dont see anyone of sufficient promise to bridge that gap of quality before RWC.
He did lineup at 7 for 1 or 2 games. Prob v Italy? edit: You said This!
So we have 1 guy for the position and that's it? No alternative? And that's fine? The alternative being playing our captain and arguably best player out of position?
In fairness I think Gleeson is on the radar of management in a big way.
If no vdF. Doris-Gleeson-Baird backrow has the potential to be the best unit Ireland can field.
I don't agree with it but thats what it looks like to me.
Tbf there isn't too many 7's putting there hands up to have a look at as a back up up.
I'd more inclined to look at an alt to 8 should the need arise to move Doris across
