lol, ronan (ironically I am fairly certain rob herring would have scored that). Doesn't change the point. Some of the biggest mistakes in the final 20 came from some of the freshest players.
There is zero logical argument for claiming the Irish team were fatigued going into the NZ game. As many of us have shown here multiple times now, on average players in our 23 had played just over 2 games in 5 weeks coming in to that match (an average of less than 3 games in 5 weeks for the starting 15).
I'd say without a doubt the pressure and the expectations got to them, allied with the somewhat claustrophobic atmosphere perhaps of being in camp etc, and all those things combined to see us freeze like a deer in the headlights and basically not fire a shot for the first 20 mins, but the notion we were "fatigued" doesn't wash with me at all.
I do think some of our players will be a little undercooked going into the NZ game, but, worth noting NZ last played on October 4th, so won't have played any rugby in 4 weeks by the time we kick off in Chicago.
all those things combined to see us freeze like a deer in the headlights and basically not fire a shot for the first 20 mins
Even this narrative isn't accurate though. We had multiple attacks on their line in that period. We didn't freeze, just failed to execute. JGP playing for a penalty and gently falling into the arms of a NZ defender being the worst example, when we were threatening on their try line. We had two kickable penalties go against us, and a brilliant piece of individual play from Barrett, that targeted a consistent gap in our defensive structure.
I can actually see some logic FtD. Sorry!
Anyway, I dont like the breeze is blowing in here! Thats all in the past and as a paid up member I find it disappointing to see posters get attacked and piled-on for posting different opinions. Thats not directed at you btw! Hope it gets sorted because Lots of 'different opinions' incoming on the Leinster-Munster thread this weekend!!
Great to see Ringrose, Ryan, Furlong, Beirne et al back for this weekend.
I'd prefer to be in NZ position re: 4th Oct last game.
Ah here, no one is getting piled on.
But when someone comes out with a statement that "we lost cause we were fatigued" and others painstakingly point out the minutes played and comparisons to 6N campaigns and how the logic doesn't really stack up, I don't think continuing to just go "nah, we were definitely fatigued" is a particularly productive response. The players simply had not played that much over the course of either 5 weeks or the 3 weeks prior to the NZ match. And the game was lost in the opening 20 minutes.
There is nothing unusual about our position going into the AIs these days. The revised calendar and European competition has really screwed the NH teams.
They were
and there is a serial offender btw
It is actually slightly different this year I think. Later start to season, post summer tour etc. Or maybe Im wrong
I don’t think physical fatigue was a big issue. I would argue we peaked the week before (and had to as we hadn’t qualified) and struggled to peak again the next week. You could say it was an emotional fatigue.
We turned up at our best and blew Scotland away in the first half. The next week we turned up a bit flat against NZ. Happens all the time, especially in rugby where you struggle if you’re a percent or two off your best and the other team is dialled in.
SA struggled to put a poor England team away after a huge performance against France. In 2019 it happened to England after they hammered NZ in the semis and didn’t turn up in the final. Same thing happened to NZ after hammering us and then getting beaten out the gate by England in the semis.
It is ever so slightly worse (5 URC rounds prior to the AIs rather than 6) cause of the Lions tour. We really miss the two European rounds prior to the tour, but the whole domestic season has been adjusted to be slightly later while the AIs haven't really moved.
But sure yea, thats my point e.g. Munster-Leinster game was 12th Oct last year.
Irish lads played 2 more rounds after that and then played 1st AI v NZ on 8th Nov. They still were undercooked then.
This time its what - 1 game? Munster-Leinster and then 1st AI v NZ (& Chicago!) on 1st Nov. It'll surely be harder this year to get up to speed.
That's cause Ireland are choosing to not let them play the next round to bring them to Chicago. An entirely self-inflicted issue.
ok…so it is or isnt an unusual position to be in compared to other years?
Sorry, you are correct, it is unusual but that's cause we are not allowing our players to play a round of matches so its a deliberate choice. I'm not convinced it is a good choice.
So the difference isn't the season, but the IRFU basically.
ok yea thats what I thought. Irish lads usually are given at least 3 matches prior to the AI games. Then they would ordinarily miss the last round before the AIs.
What was the stat v NZ last year? 20+ handling errors, 10+ turnovers, 10+ penalties and almost as bad by HT v Australia 3 weeks later.
I think Ireland wont be ready for NZ and still might not be up to speed for Australia 2 weeks after. SA will focus the minds but 3 losses wouldn't shock me.
I'm loathe to get into this for the reasons you've mentioned ionad - I don't have a strong opinion at all one way or the other (even tho I think do think Crowley should've been on the field) - but I do have a memory that our starters had fairly significantly more minutes played going into that QF than NZ (and other teams too).
But as you say, moving on; I think the undercooked element means I think there's more of a case to pick certain positions / players on form for this reason.
It's a real shame Izuchukwu is injured, was really looking forward to seeing him involved again and think he could put his hand up for the 6 jersey. Baird finished the last season well, but that seems like the most open jersey in the starting 15. Looking forward to seeing what TOB can do, he deserves a good spell injury free.
Moving on indeed!
Yes thats primarily why I was hoping Crowley would start v NZ and Aus because he had been playing with Casey since the start of the season. Then he got injured!
Baird and Ahern are better players than Izzy to my eyes. Now Leinster have Baird back playing at Lock. Again. Plus he's gone at got dropped from the 23 for Munster! Weird. Of course no mention as to why from Leinster. This would have been a perfect game for Baird at 6.
Wonder who Farrell is thinking of starting at 6 v NZ. Prendergast has a shot now.
I cant see Farrell starting TOB v NZ. He should, It would just mean he'll be dropping Hansen, and he loves Mack Hansen. With good reason.
He was forced out for player management.
In my ideal world we would have Hansen at 15, TOB at 14 and Osborne at 12.
Mod Edit
Warning issued.
You're joking? As in - take a break Baird you'll be fatigued??
Ideally, but Osborne is going to play 15 for all of the AIs by the look of it. Hansen at 15 v Japan?
I am not. IRFU player management and unfortunately he was needed in the first three games given the locks available.
Oh I have no expectation of it happening, it would just be by far my preference. vs Japan maybe alright.
It's the case for a chunk of players close to the Irish side, they had to be rested for one game out of the block of 4 to start the season (obviously wasn't an issue for some of the guys who were never going to return before this game).
But of the guys largely available you'll notice the following:
The really strange one is Leinster have said Jimmy O'Brien isn't involved this weekend because of this rule, even though he wasn't named in the Ireland squad this week (and I think I'd struggle to see how he gets in this 23 either, unless we went 5-3 on the bench).
I'm not one to be believe that you can be fatigued with the amount of rugby we played because they play far more for their provinces.
However, they did look tired in that game. I don't know why that was the case but it was blatantly obvious watching the game that they looked like a team that had played the day before.
I don't disagree by the end of the game virtually everyone on the pitch looked tired (including NZ), but as I said above, I think it's more to do with the intensity of the fixture itself, the quality of the rugby, the level of multi-phase attack we'd gone through to try and get back into the game.
I also think the sheer weight of expectations was a factor in all of that - Ireland genuinely could have won that RWC (best chance we've ever had, and likely will ever have for a while IMO), and I think the players knew that better than anyone.
But it's a game of rugby lots of neutral fans still rave about frequently as one of the best quality games of recent years, an instant classic. That to me is why the players were spent afterwards, it's not how much rugby they'd played in the 5 weeks before it.
There's a stronger argument we likely didn't have the squad depth to go deep in the well two more weekends again after that, and likely would still have been turned over by a deeper, more savvy SA team in the final anyway, but we'll never know I guess.
The mandated rest match was for all involved in the summer tests, the upcoming tests weren’t the reason for that. Things can change anyway, JOB could be brought straight in to start if a couple of guys pick up knocks.
It is interesting that Hansen and Stockdale have both been selected for province at fullback this season, perhaps the plan is for JOB to be phased out of the Irish setup. I’ve always thought JOB performed really well in green though.
i think that missed kick gets forgotten about in alot of the discourse about the game, but it was a massive element of the eventual loss to be honest
So I am just looking at basic statistics and the ages of players in the squads. Now the SA squad is for the Rugby Championship as they have not selected the squad for the end of year tour yet and the Irish, New Zealand and Australia squads are for the end of year tour.
Players over 30 -
Ireland 14 - players over 34 at RWC 11
New Zealand 8 - players over 34 at RWC 4
Australia 6 - players over 34 at RWC 1
South Africa 21 - players over 34 at RWC 11
If you looked at the age profile of the squads at the previous RWC you would have seen problems for Ireland and in particular South Africa and this is borne out by the numbers above. I don't think it is debilitating for either, but both have ageing squads that may come back to bite them in a tight match.
Who cares, as the end results will justify the means. NZ or France win the RWC, proof the other squads were too old. SA win again, proof experience is the key. Ireland make the semi or final, it all worked out and if they are knocked out again at the QF, then proof it was a dismal failure.
My heart sank when he missed it. You can't be giving up easy points like that in a game like that.
sad in a way that JS missed his last ever kick at goal too.
earlier in his career he had missed a few very gettable kicks at important times (v NZ 2013, v France 2014) but it was seemingly something he had got over, just very unfortunate all round that it came back at the worst time - could easily have been a fatigue thing at that point of the match too
I don't know if fatigue was a contributory factor in missing the penalty but I do think his fatigue was a contributory factor in we not getting that final score.
I know others will claim that we got up the field but we'd have been a bigger threat if he wasn't out on his feet fir the final 10-15 mins of the game
Or, our attack might have spluttered and stumbled after 3 phases instead of the 32+ phases we went through in going up the field.
going 3 phases or 32 phases doesnt really matter unless one of them ends up over the line
look i dont think it was just down to sexton that ireland didnt score at the end. at the same time he looked completely out on his feet at that stage and was just shipping the ball on at times. it all gets a bit 'if my aunt had balls etc' when looking at the hypotheticals, but i dont think its crazy to suggest having a fresher 10 who is more of a running threat would have been a good idea
