Here is a photo of one for anyone that has not seen one yet….. 2023 reg too btw……
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How many more electric buses are due to enter service? Has the order been fulfilled or is there more to come from wrightbus?
The single decker electrics (The EA) I think, can someone enlighten me what the hell is going on with these, what a bloody waste to have them parked up for months, if there's a problem, heads should roll.. These could be great for current routes like the N2, Bray locals… 220s.. 104s… the list could go on…
I know most the routes above are go ahead but surely to god chargers could of been installed in the last year instead of them sitting around gathering dust for nearly a year, replacing single decker diesels on a one for one basis. ]
These single decker electric buses (some have been delivered over a year ago) are in service day in and day out in Athlone with no problems, so what's the problem with Dublin? I also believe a company in Ardee is making a small fortune storing them….. Only in Ireland.
Im a fan of bus connects, the NTA, etc etc but by god stupid stuff like this grinds my gears!!!! GET THE BLOODY THINGS IN SERVICE ALREADY!!!!!
Have either the DAA or Aircoach applied for planning permission to Fingal CC for installing new chargers for this new Irizar fleet at Dublin Airport's Car Parks?
I'm not sure what the status is in terms of the roll-out of those Irizar.Ie trams that Aircoach have for the Dublin Airport Car Park and Staff Shuttles. Some of them were delivered last year on 242-D plates and have barely moved since they were delivered and some of them apparently have batteries that are so flat that they can only be moved with the aid of a mobile generator.
The last time I was up at the airport a couple of weeks ago as well there didn't seem to be much sign of any infrastructure going in to charge them at the stops either.
There's a few of them sitting up in McElvaneys Scania in Finglas
You are spot on! Looks like the Hon Kong ones are 24 tonne.
https://www.eeb.gov.hk/sites/default/files/en/node5762/Alexander_Dennis_ENVIRO500EV_ENG.pdf
Though with just a 472kWh battery as you say. To be honest, that battery size seem a bit too small for a city like Dublin for such a big bus. The EW are almost the same at 454kWh.
While we don't need as much as the NA models, I'd feel you would need a bit more, maybe 500kWh or so for all day operations, unless you only planned to use them at peak times.
Of course that is all the ADL model, no info on the new Wrights one.
However if it still isn't enough, I wonder if this could push the NTA into looking into articulated buses again? They are allowed to be up to 28 or 29 tonnes which gives them more room to play with. Although the routes they are cleared for as well as what depots can take them could be pretty limiting? Also I am not sure if anyone makes BEV articulated buses for RHD markets?
There is the Irizar ie tram that Aircoach is supposed to be getting for the Dublin Airport car parks. Hasn't arrived yet, but would be one of the first RHD BEV 18 BRT. Will be interesting to see how they go for Aircoach.
If we were to get BRT's, I'd figure it would be similar to the triaxles. Limited numbers, maybe 100 or so, limited to routes like the Swords road and N11. Would likely need their own dedicated depot or one of the new ones, etc.
Not saying it is going to happen, just what it might look like.
I think the 27500 kg figure is for the NA version, I can't find a weight listed for the NZ or HK versions. The NA model is almost a metre longer and has a much larger battery (472kWh vs 709kWh or 827kWh), so I think it's pretty realistic for an Irish model to be under 26 tonnes, maybe even lighter.
I'd be curious if MCV / Volvo went for a Electric triaxle at some point, they already have the EvoSeti triaxle in a few different lengths in diesel form on Volvo chassis. (example here)
Yes, but they don't really go into detail on what that means: "Higher Capacity Bus Systems – using larger vehicles or other forms of higher capacity bus, carrying in excess of 3,000 passengers per hour;"
https://consult.nationaltransport.ie/en/consultation/greater-dublin-area-transport-strategy/chapter/12-public-transport-bus-light-heavy-rail
Could be tri-axles, could be BRT, doesn't really go into detail. They also mention some routes becoming Luas lines.
Well in general Tri-axles aren't very popular and not many are built every year. When they started converting buses to BEV, they first started with the easiest one, the single deckers, then moved to the regular double deckers which are by far the most popular and highest selling models (UK+Ireland market). Tri-axles have always been the last bus model they work on as sales tend to be limited, even back in the Diesel days. Just not really a priority.
Also as you say, there maybe challenges with the batteries, larger, heavier bus will mean it needs more batteries, which not only increases cost, but also you need to find the space to fit them and handle the extra weight.
Actually you just made me realise weight might be a problem, they might exceed the maximum legal allowed weight for alternative fuel tri-axles buses. The legal limit is 26,000kg, however as an example the ADL Envrio500EV is heavier then that at 27,500kg!
Did the NTA not mention investing in high capacity buses such as triaxles in the long term future in one of their reports for Dublin?
So why aren't tri-axle electrics a thing? Are they too heavy?
Sorry if this a stupid question.
Yes, I wondered if the depots could fit them too, specially given how crowded they are now, thanks.
For an interesting conspiracy, 2014 was when the NTA published their Swiftway BRT plan, that would have covered the Swords corridor and partially Bray corridor that you mention DB were thinking of for the extra tri-axles. Perhaps why they killed the idea of buying more.
Of course the NTA stupidly then killed the Swiftway plan, so we ended up with the worst of both worlds!
If Wrights can get them into production, perhaps time for their return.
The next order was being readied in Autumn 2008 along with a smallish batch of Enviro 400s. The recession wiped all plans out.
Yes I'd agree that we wouldn't want any more than around 100 or so. Not too many. It's not just some routes that they're too big for, some depots can't handle them either.
BTW one point, recently TII gave a presentation about Luas and it was very interesting. They did a detail survey of how many people actually fit on different Luas vehicles at peak time. They had surveyors count the number of people actually on the vehicles and getting on and off at peak times.
This gave them very interesting real world numbers on capacity.
I'd love to see DB or NTA do something similar for buses, single deckers, standard double deckers (both a single and dual door model) and VT class (and perhaps trial a Wrights BEV tri-axle if they could and do the same) and actually publish the numbers.
Even better if we could get similar stats from the Glider BRT's in Belfast.
I'd love to see the real world peak capacity numbers of each type of bus, in particular over the length of a route (people getting on and off).
It would be interesting to see how much real world difference these different types actually make.
The last VT was delivered in 07, I would assume they were ordered in 06. They clearly didn't order any more in 07 for delivery in 08 like the EV's.
Like I have said DB was planning to buy another batch of tri-axles before the downturn hit suddenly.
So perhaps another 50, brining it up to a fleet of 120 or so?
I'd have no issue with the NTA buying 100 to 120, if there are suitable, I'm not sure how many routes can actually handle these or how many in total could be usefully in the fleet.Sorry I see you mentioned it already in another post above, about 30 to 40 extra. About 100 to 110 total. Also answers my comment below and makes sense for those two routes, thanks
They had all been ordered many months before (in autumn 07 in the 08 EV's case). The 09 reg vehicles were all delivered regless in late 08 and weren't regd until early 09, they weren't bought in 09. Like I have said DB was planning to buy another batch of tri-axles before the downturn hit suddenly.
Dublin Bus continued to buy the EV and VG class through 2008 and 2009. Something like 170 of them. There was nothing stopping them continuing to buy the VT class during the same period if they wanted.
Well yes, they tested the water in 05 with 20 of them, were generally pleased with them and then ordered 50 a year later. Plans were in motion for another 30-40 for Swords and Bray routes (along with a Water-testing order for the ADL Enviro 400) when the economy began to turn in Autumn 2008 and all orders were put on ice. NTA being formed in 09 is irrelevant, new buses were completely off the menu.
NTA then took over new orders from 2012 with the GT. They were NOT bought by DB. From 2014 DB began to have more of a say in types bought/spec etc and asked about the possibility of more tri-axles (with rear steer, which would negate most of the operating costs) and were told no and have continued to be.
But DB bought just 70 VT's between 2005 and 2007. The NTA wasn't formed until 2009, didn't gain their powers until 2011 and didn't buy their own buses until 2014 with the SG's.
During that 7 year period, DB didn't buy any more tri-axles and bought hundreds of "standard" double deckers in the AX/EV/VG/GT. During that period there was nothing stopping DB buying more tri-axles, but they didn't. I get the impression that DB wasn't all that impressed with them either. Expensive to buy and high operational costs.
Clearly even DB thought there was only a need for 70 or so tri-axles out of a fleet of 1,000 (pre NTA).
By the normal 14 year renewal, the first VT's wouldn't be up for replacement until 2019/2020, but then of course Covid hit and the need for such a big bus clearly wasn't there then. By the time passenger numbers picked up again in 2023, we were into the period when they were buying only zero emission buses.
Having said all that, I do think a small fleet of 100 or so makes sense. Hopefully those Wright ones go into production.
The NTA have had no interest in buying Tri-axles since at least 2014, long before any hybrid focus came up.
I don't totally disagree that a myth about Tri-axles solving all issues has developed over time. However the company was looking at buying more until the Recession hit (with Rear-steer which would have helped significantly with running costs) and by the time they were back on their feet it wasn't really their decision anymore.
It didn't help that the spec that DB went for didn't include rear-axle steering, which meant that there was the extra cost of replacing the rear tyres a lot more frequently due to excessive wear.
Before the zero emission policy, they also wanted hybrids and dual door buses, there weren't really such a tri-axle option at the time (just straight Diesels) and anyway the VT's hadn't reached end of life at that stage yet anyway. They only reached end of life around the time of the zero emissions policy.
I thought it was common knowledge since they've been replacing the VTs with SGs and PAs. Electric tri axles have been around a good few years now and still the NTA don't seem to be interested.
There has only ever been 70 VT's, there is something like 900 SG/PA's! The SG/PA's replaced all the old single door buses, not just the VT's.
Electric tri-axles have not been around for a few years! ADL had a model for the North American market, but never made or sold any for the UK and only made and have only delivered like a dozen to Hong Kong last year! This Wrights option is what I would see as the first potential real option.
To be honest, people get a bit carried away about tri-axles on this forum. It has turned into one of those myths. Even with Dublin Bus, they were only a niche and curiosity! Just 70 out of a fleet of more then 1,000 with Dublin Bus, shows even DB weren't all that impressed with them. They bought those 70 in 2005 to 2007 and then went straight back to buying regular dual axle's with the AX, EV and VG class in much larger numbers. Even DB tried limiting their use to only peak hours due to much higher running costs. If the VT's were so great, why didn't DB continue buying them and stopped after just 70?
The reality is that they are so big, they are only useful on a small number of routes.
I do think maybe an order of 100 or so could be useful for routes like the E1 as PlatformNine mentions. Though I do think we need to see this Wrights bus actually enter production and details about battery size and real world range, etc.
They've never been big in the UK bar a handful of operators. Only Lothian Buses has them in Edinburgh and First Aberdeen are the only major operators I can think of that use them. Other than that the main market is Hong Kong and Singapore.
I will be curious to see if the NTA places an order for some tri-axles, as it could be a good capacity boost for some of the busiest spines in Dublin, especially during the morning peak on already high frequency routes like the E1. However, I see no way any orders would be placed before BC rollout is complete and I would at least be surprised if they placed an order it before the current framework is fulfilled. And I believe only 421 of 800 have been ordered so far?
Outside of peak times I think the larger buses could also work quite well for services during large events, especially if its ana event that needs extra services.
Great to have the option but NTA didn't look at tri-axles for many years before they made the change to zero emissions vehicles either.
The NTA has never stated that!
The NTA made the decision to move to zero emission only buses and until now there haven't been BEV triaxle city buses, thus they weren't an option.
(Yes, ADL has one, but it doesn't appear to be popular and the NTA appear to be unhappy with ADL).
If this Wright bus goes beyond a prototype and into actual production, then it could be an option for the NTA (limited of course to certain routes) and of course assuming it has the necessary battery range.
Triaxles seem to have largely fallen out of favour in the UK, it will be interesting to see if this reignites interest.
I think there are still some questions about this new bus, but I think it is great that the option exists.
NTA don't want triaxle city buses
Seems to be going to Hong Kong and maybe Singapore, so sounds like it could work for us. Will be interesting to see if they get any interest in the UK. There didn't seem to be much interest in the ADL Enviro500EV in the UK.
Still sounds to be at the Protoype/demonstrator stage. Certainly an interesting space to watch.
Is that new tri-axle bus built from Wrights offered to operators within the UK & Irish market?
Also what is the name of their tri-axle bus? Is it called an Electroliner 500 or something?
EDIT:
As I can see here. It's being lined up with orders from operators in the Far East & Europe.
Could the NTA be ordering these for the Irish operators here as they are an Transport Authority based in an EU Member State?
