Now no excuse for a tri-axle for Dublin, Wrightbus just produced one
While the EW do have new screens, the discussion seems to have broadened into PIS in general so I thought I create a new thread with some examples of them on different buses here, where people can discuss them more broadly:
I wouldn't take a bus off the road because one isn't working and there is no other option, but I do genuinely believe they are needed and should be fixed.
I've been on buses without working leap card validators, the driver just waves you on. Doesn't mean it isn't needed and shouldn't be fixed! In Cork I've been on buses where the external destination/route number display weren't working, the driver had a printed sheet in the window, not a great passenger experience, but better then no bus if that is the only option.
There can be a huge difference in 'missing a stop' though. For example - a road with no lights for a good stretch and and a safe footpath with your destination on that very side? An extra 300m or walk is hardly a hassle.
On the other hand, lets say your destination is on the right hand side and the stop where you get off is close to the lights to cross the road. This set of particular lights has an extremely long waiting time and so does the lights that allow you to cross to your destination is up ahead at the next stop (your intended stop).
Getting off that 300-500m earlier now means two sets of lights and that could be a lot of time.
I normally know where I am getting off at so it never bothers me but I can imagine as a tourist or elderly/physically not able I would like the indication that we are coming to a stop to be clearer.
Do many of the newer buses have voice announcements? Was getting the 41 recently from the airport and it was a newer electric. No shaking and not noisy, new screens and much more powerful accelarating too - can't remember if the stops were announced via voice, had earphones in.
Proper functioning passenger information systems on buses and trains, both announcements and displays, are things that should be a given in this day and age.
I cannot believe that we are even debating this.
So they are a nice to have not a need to have
Yes, I've noticed the same, I assume with the shortage of mechanics the priority is to keep buses on the road and rightfully so, but I do hope they can sort it in time.
Not getting into the weeds of this debate but I've noticed the next stops screens on the Electroliners are frequently out of action.
You have to stand or sit behind driver and ask them to let you know when the stop comes. It can work, but far from ideal, lots of people with impairments would prefer not to have to keep bothering the driver or other people for help.
It just happens that I listened to an excellent podcast yesterday on The Verge, where they interviewed a visually impaired person who covered almost exactly this topic. He was describing how life changing for him new Meta smart glasses were as they help describe the world around him. Of course he could ask others to do that, but that is was intimidating to constantly to have to ask strangers for help like that, it was life changing for him not to have to always depend on the kindness of strangers for help. Of course those glasses would sometimes fail, but it was still freeing for him when it did work.
I'd seriously recommend listening to this podcast, it was genuinely very interesting:
https://www.theverge.com/the-vergecast/701018/ray-ban-meta-smart-glasses-be-my-eyes-ceo-accessibility-tech
Of course saying the screens/announcements fail a lot just isn't good enough, this isn't rocket science.
The new EW electric buses have new larger screens, however they seem to be poorly used compared to the same/similar screens on BE buses. It is like they just took the old one line PIS and superimposed it on a large LCD screen that the EW's have without really using the space.
While I'm sure a debate about the use of the Irish language on transport and in other places is an interesting one, it is off-topic for this thread which should be more tightly related to vehicles themselves.
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If your blind or hard of vision and get on a bus and the announcements aren't working (which happens) how do you manage or the bus is on diversion? Technology often fails.
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Well are you blind or hard of vision? I suspect you would need them then.
Personally I'll admit I've missed a stop a handful of times over 20 years, not a big deal for me as a person who likes to walk anyway, but for an elderly/mobility impaired/blind person it can be a very big deal.
And if you are a tourist or new to the city or just going to an unfamiliar area, how do you even know what stop to get off at!
It is important to think of other peoples circumstances and not just your own.
As you say the displays and announcements on Dublin Bus are poor, but that isn't good enough!
BTW The screens on the EW class look to be the same as the ones on BE buses, yet the implementation on DB is terrible compared to BE. So it isn't really hardware, more just the software they are using, it really shouldn't be that difficult to fix.
There is a whole Next Gen AVL system coming from the NTA. I would hope that it will fix the accuracy of the bus positioning and info and that this info can be displayed to passengers on high quality screens that are easy to use and informative.
I have used DB buses for the last 25 years and I have never once missed my stop. I wouldn't trust the annoucements or the display inside the bus. They often do not work. I've sometimes seen them display completely the wrong route.
Pay attention to where your going and you won't miss your stop. The money being spent on these information systems could be much better spent on introducing contactless on buses.
We "survived" many years with one of the worst public transport systems in Europe. That isn't the point. The whole point of this forum is to try and encourage better public transport systems in Ireland.
Onboard announcements are a most for visually impaired and low vision people.
Passenger Information System displays that are clear and easy to read and show not only the next stop but the next 3 or 4 stops are a most for people with limited mobility who need more time to get up and get to the door in time.
And frankly they are great even for "regular users", so easy to miss your stop on a dark winter night with condensation on the window.
BE have a great PIS displays on their city buses in Cork, etc. Dublin Bus/GAI really need to copy these displays.
Yes and Irish is an official language nationwide not only in the Gaeltacht. I don't see how having signage in Irish and English is confusing it's literally a destination on the front of a bus.
We survived for many years perfectly fine without any onboard annoucements which are nice to have not a must have. Pay attention to where your going and you won't miss your stop.
They don't speak Catalan in the South of Spain so why would they have signs in Spanish and Catalan outside of Catalonia. Same reason signage in London isn't written in Scots Gaelic and Welsh but signs in Scotland and Wales are. Irish is a national language, Catalan and Basque are regional languages.
Yes, exactly, most of us don't speak Irish outside of Gaeltacht areas. Of course have signs in the Gaeltacht in Irish, but have the signs in English speaking parts of Ireland in English.
That is how it is done in Switzerland, they have three national languages (and sort of a 4th), but they don't have three languages on every sign, instead they just use the dominant language of the area. German, in German speaking areas, French in French speaking areas, etc.
Again, though my overall point is we want to have clear and easily usable passenger information systems.
I think you're missing the point just to have a go at our national language but whatever
Irish is here to stay. Even Translink are using Irish and English signage since the Irish language act passed up North.
If bus stops in Dublin are very close together then what's the harm in missing one stop? Not much of a walk to the stop before in that case. Generally if you're on a crowded bus you know that you will need to start making your way down the steps well in advance of your stop
That is a ridiculous thing to say, you want people to have a worse transport experience just because you want to push your language agenda!
I find the exact opposite with peoples knowledge of Irish, remember most of the country did Irish for leaving cert which stop names are so poorly translated or just made up exactly? Do you have examples?
I did it for my Leaving Cert too and like the majority of people promptly forgot most of it and I completely blank it on signs.
Many streets and areas around Dublin never had Irish names and are made up.
The language we should all be trying to 'save' is far from dead and including 2 languages on info screens isn't a difficult task that most other countries manage fairly well. That's just a rant against the Irish language, your own national language no lessFor completeness of your point how much extra does it cost putting Irish on signs? How many Gaelscoileanna would you open with the savings?
The language we should all be trying to 'save' is far from dead and including 2 languages on info screens isn't a difficult task that most other countries manage fairly well. That's just a rant against the Irish language, your own national language no less
For completeness of your point how much extra does it cost putting Irish on signs? How many Gaelscoileanna would you open with the savings?
If even one extra Gaelscoileanna could be opened with the money saved, it would be worth far more then this rubbish language tokenism. It would mean hundreds, if not thousands of extra people actually speaking Irish!
But "for completeness", let me challenge you on you Spain example. You mentioned the signs showed both Spanish and English.
Well Spain has at least 4 languages, their are also Catalan, Galician, Basque, etc. Catalan is spoken by 4.5 million people as their first language, compared to just 80,000 Irish speakers as their first language, yet those buses in the South of Spain weren't showing Catalan, etc.
Surely those buses in Spain should rotate the signs between all the languages of Spain?
Of course they don't, because that would be dumb and make the signs unusable!
If you go to a Basque region, you will of course see signs that are in both Basque and Spanish (and maybe English), but in the rest of the country they don't bother doing that. They are practical about where these use different languages.
To be clear, I have no problem with putting Irish on a sign, as long as it doesn't reduce usability. Give me a wide, high quality screen with plenty of space for both English and Irish displayed at the same time and I've no problem with it.
Bus stops in Dublin can be very close together and often the screens don't switch fast enough, specially as they also rotate through other messages like stopping, destination, etc. I've often seen situations where there isn't enough time to display the stop it is stopping at. Even without Irish, the ones on DB are poor, BE have much better screens.
This is particularly important on double deckers where it can take time to get down the stairs and through the crowd and the screens only show the next stop (and only some of the time) instead of the next few stops.
Most people don't have a clue what most stop names are in Irish, specially as many of the stop names are so poorly translated or just made up.
This is how it works on the Alicante/Benidorm Tram, an area of Spain with a lot of English speakers being catered to while at the same time keeping their own language alive
You see that is the problem right there, you aren't trying to improve the usability of public transport, you are trying to save an almost dead language. You want to make the usability of public transport worse and less clear for your own goal.
And it is a silly comparison! They aren't trying to keep their language alive, because it is very much alive! It is the mother tongue of the majority of Spanish people and it is actually the second most wildly spoken "first language" in the world, actually ahead of English!
They likely display English too, because it is the "lingua franca" of Europe, the most wildly spoken second language of Europe.
So they are displaying the language that the majority of local people speak and also a language that the majority of tourists/visitors can speak, that seems like good communications.
To be honest, given the number of Spanish students I see on the 123, you'd be better off replacing Irish with Spanish, it would be more useful!
I really hate all the money that is wasted putting Irish on signs, it is all just perpetuating a lie. That Irish is alive and well rather then the truth that it is an almost dead language and getting worse. The politicians can pat themselves on the shoulder and say they are helping the language, when in reality it is doing sweet feck all and the language is dying.
I'd rather see the money invested in things like more Gaelscoileanna, reforming Irish language education in schools, etc. Get people actively speaking it!
Getting back to the topic on hand. If we have to have Irish on the screen, then my preference is nice large, wide screens that can display both the English and Irish side by side, without swapping and ideally show multiple different info at the same time, ideally the next 4 or 5 stops, giving people time to get downstairs and prepare for the stop.
I want to see clear and easily usable public transport system.
How often is your planned stop less than the few seconds it takes for the screen to change? How many people don't know the stop name in English and Irish by now?
I absolutely HATE screens that switch between English and Irish! It makes it far less usable. What if it is displaying Irish when your planned stop is approaching and many/most people haven't a clue what the Irish means.
Personally I prefer to just drop the Irish because it is nonsense and makes public transport less usable and clear.
But if they have to have Irish, I prefer large wide screens that can display both the English and Irish at the same time. So the info is always there in English and thus more usable.
That second screen can reach the Irish language requirement by changing every few seconds from English and back
Little bit of tech can keep everybody happy
That would most likely be one of the three Hydrogen buses operated by Bus Eireann that have been on long-term trial. They are only really used on peak-time 103X/105X services. Also, while they are based in Broadstone - in order to refuel them they have to go all the way to the BOC yard on the Naas Road, as that's the only place capable of refueling them.
I've seen a hydrogen SG type looking TFI liveried bus around the city the last 2 days. SSG, Klidare St, Baggot St areas. Couldn't catch the 'operated by' logo on the side unfortunately.
Is this just one of BE's lot doing driver training/maintenance testing spins? or are DB getting a few in to cover shortfall for the buses going to GAI?
Truthfully I don't think having a consistent livery is the problem, but likely other factors about the network that may mean having a consistent livery is a problem. I think liveries beng that helpful is not a sign that they should be used for identifying various services, but that there are underlying issues with the network meaning you may have to. Four problems I could immediately think of are:
Timetables should be better consolidated onto one website, especially for all PSO services. Having to look between 3 different websites (for Dublin) is tedious and casues confusion. The TFI app/website does help, but quality aside I don't think it has enough informations at times and can be very tedious to use if you are trying to plan more than a few hours in advance. This can be even worse in areas where town services are operated by smaller operates, whether that be local link (most town services) or a private company (such as Wexford town and Tralee).
There should be more/better network maps. This is also related to website consolidation, as you should be able to find maps showing both regional and city routes on them. Not only do several town networks not have any map, technically dublin doesn't even have a proper network map. The official map on TFI is for rail only and is out of date since the introduction of the new fare zones.
Information at bus stops needs to be improved. I have noticed some routes have abstract transit maps and I think that is helpful, and should be introduced to more routes as I have so far only seeing them at G-spine stops. Though I also think displaying higher detail maps would also be good. Additionally I think there needs to be better information for interchanges, such as arrows pointing where to go to switch betwen regional and city services, between BC spines, etc.
Most importantly, there should never be duplicate numbers within the same region. This honestly shouldn't even be a problem. A quick run through the DB, BE, and GAI websites and I found 4 duplicates: 4, 111, 120, 130, and this has gotten better since the start of BC.
I know this might sound a bit like I'm ranting about other issues, but I also do get where you are coming from as I have been there. I believe this is related to the livery problem you mention, as I think it is all related to a lack of accessible and concise information and/or being given confusing or inconsistent information. I don't believe you should have to look at a bus's livery just to figure out which website to go to for a timetable or to find information about the route.
I would love to see displays like the second one across the network. One of my big gripes with the current PIS systems is how reliant on audio they can be for any additional information. On a busy bus/tram/train it can be difficult to hear, let alone if a passenger is hearing impared. I think it could also work well with BC and could prevent interchange information from being too cluttered or hard to read.
