Kind of overlooking that long period from the end of 2018 through to a couple of seasons ago where Murray was well off the pace.
JGP is in a fine vein of form for a few seasons now but it wasn't always ever thus. Especially those few seasons after he arrived on these shores.
Murray performed at the top level throughout most of his career.
At their peak you might have an argument for JGP but across the career Murray is comfortably the better player.
the amount of lions caps isnt a direct comparison either though since they were every 3 years rather than 4 and there were 4 tests in a series rather than 3
But Woody didn't just stand out amongst his teammates, he stood out amongst his peers; to reiterate a point I made above:
People often forget Wood was the first ever World Player of the Year winner, winning it ahead of all-time greats in Gregan, George Smith, Wilkinson and Drico.
Could argue that it's a point in Sheehan's favor that he stands out as an elite player, in team's full of them, where Woods stood out as elite when he was playing in much less talented teams, a la Parisse.
Yeah, fair enough.
Conscious I've quasi de-railed the thread here now, and I get it's difficult to compare across eras, but as I said from the outset, my initial post on this was more about emphasising just how good I think Sheehan is (he's the best hooker, and possibly the best front row player in the world right now IMO) than having a go at Keith Wood (who I think is an incredible player and an all time Irish great in his own right).
I don't think you've necessarily convinced on this argument.
To be fair, I didn't necessarily expect to convince you, FTD :D
I just mean, recency bias is difficult to shake off. But when you look at what some of our past players achieved, we've had some phenomenal fellas who have distinguished themselves by doing extraordinary or unique things.
Yeah, and tbc I'm not saying I think Sheehan is ahead of Wood either (in leadership), I'm just saying:
The initial statement here was:
One area that Wood was undoubtedly better in is leadership - in some sense a more innate thing and a nebulous to teach / coach / train.
Yeah, I don't disagree on any of your points. It's the difficulty in measuring success of an individual in a team sport - the teams wax and wane while individual players might be exemplary or an empty jersey. It's also impossible to quantify leadership. It takes more leadership to get a mid-table finish out of a poor team than get into the final with a team of galacticos. And that's before we start worrying about coaches and their effect on team fortunes.
But McBride is the most capped Lion ever. He went on five Lions tours (as did Mike Gibson). You still had to be one of the top two or three in your position, at a time when rugby was more popular in England, Wales and Scotland.
…which wasn't exactly overflowing with strong alternatives.
Disagree. It was indeed a poor Ireland team, but there were really strong alternatives in both Mick Galwey and Anthony Foley. (Arguably a stronger group in terms of candidates for the captaincy than we have now).
In any case, I haven't made the argument that Sheehan "isn't a very strong leader". I've just made the argument that I don't think he's ahead of Woody in that regard.
Not looking to diminish the accomplishments of that tour, or McBryde, but you're kind of conflating the achievements of the team with him. Captaining the team was a massive honour, but the fact the team won 22 matches isn't necessarily *his* accomplishment. In the same way Ireland going undefeated for 18 games wasn't Sexton's accomplishment.
I'd personally hold that period from Nov 21 to the QF is probably the greatest accomplishment for Irish rugby to date, which Sexton was central to. For the professional era anyway.
There's a difference between "Irish rugby" and "Irish rugby players" though.
To captain a Lions tour to SA where they played 22 matches, losing none, starting in and winning three of the Tests and drawing the last (due to a ref decision as dodgy as any other) is the greatest individual achievement in Irish rugby, as far as I'm concerned. The series win in NZ, I agree, is probably the greatest team achievement in Irish rugby.
He may not - but, that's because there's a guy the same age as him or slightly younger who is deemed to be an excellent captain (and likely would have captained the Lions this summer).
It's not the sole barometer though as to whether or not someone's leadership credentials are stellar or not - that was a largely utterly abject Irish team he captained, which wasn't exactly overflowing with strong alternatives.
He didn't captain Harlequins during all his years there - he captained for one season, but they had some other really strong leaders around at the time like Will Carling and Zinzan Brooke - he also didn't captain Munster on his return there - I don't necessarily think those facts suggest Wood isn't a very strong leader, just like I don't think your prediction that Sheehan won't captain Ireland 30 times necessarily means he isn't a very strong leader.
Wood captained Ireland 30 odd times, as far as I'm aware (and at a time when there were fewer internationals iirc). Even with Sheehan in the leadership group, I'd be surprised if he's ever handed the full-time captaincy, or gets near that mark tbh.
I think you're right on the leadership aspect, but would say that it's not a complete comparison at this point. From what I can tell, Keith Wood first captained Ireland in a game against USA when he was 24, but it was Jan 2000 before he took over as captain of the side on a full-time basis (when he was 28). Wood was clearly viewed as a strong leader within the Irish (and Munster and Harlequins squads), but I think Dan Sheehan clearly is seen the same way, and he's still only 26.
Sheehan is in the leadership group for Ireland and Leinster, and was chosen to captain Ireland in this year's 6 Nations when Doris was absent through injury. He also captained Leinster a couple of times this season and captained the Lions in the first game of the tour in Australian soil.
I wouldn't say it tracks that Wood is undoubtedly better in this regard- he was clearly a good leader but there's lot of evidence that Sheehan is viewed the same way at this point in his career.
Yeah, I think that's a better yardstick. If we assume players across the board, in every nation, are all improving in strength, fitness, speed etc as science and technology progress, it's who's the greatest standout.
If Murray even at his peak had coincided with Dupont he also wouldn't have been in the conversation for best in the world.
You can't compare the amateur era to the professional one, they're just too different. Sure it's hard enough comparing the game 20nyears ago to the current one. The series win in NZ is the greatest achievement in Irish rugby imo. We've beaten SA pretty consistently, and if not for some extremely dodgy ref decisions, would probably have won the last 2 tours there too.
Wood had played for Ireland before the game even went pro tho; in that sense, comparing Wood to Ciaran Fitzgerald would be a more meaningful comparison than comparing Sheehan with Wood, tbh.
In that context, you'd pretty much expect Sheehan to be bigger, stronger, faster etc. (and that's not taking anything away from Sheehan who is a phenomenal player).
Id say that's fair. If you compare each player to their peers at the time is probably the best way to measure.
Sheehan is arguably the best hooker in the world and i don't think another Irish hooker has that claim. Furlong the same.
Murray was in the conversation for best in the world and I don't think JGP is. Heaslip nominated for world player of the year. VDF winning world player of the year probably deserves to be in the conversation for best Ireland 7.
Beirne and Keenan probably fair well compared to peers compared to previous Irish players.
An all-time Irish selection would surely have to bump Beirne or O'Connell, for example, for the most capped-ever Lion who captained a series win in SA? Given we've never got further than a QF in the RWC, surely that's the greatest ever achievement by an Irish rugby player? (Also bearing in mind that the RWC didn't exist when McBride played).
I don't just think Sheehan is a more complete player in totality, I think he's arguably better at almost every aspect of hooker play. It's a fair call out that he's always played in better teams, but that brings more pressure and competition for places too.
Ultimately an all-time Irish selection would be heavily skewed towards the last 8-10 years anyway, because the national team have (by far) been the best ever iteration of an Irish side in that timeframe too.
I think Sheehan is definitely a more complete player than Wood but the point above about comparing era is very valid, plus Wood had to play in some god-awful Ireland teams in the 90s, Sheehan has never played either for a national or club team that wasn't pretty close to best in the game so maybe it's been easier for him to look good.
Doris and Keenan will definitely overtake Heaslip and Kearney but not yet IMO.
Peak Murray vs peak JGP, I would give to JGP, but Murray was so good for so long it's hard to call.
Furlong - no one even close.
Beirne is definitely in the mix. Such a pity he was a late bloomer.
You're correct. I worded that bullet wrong.
Clarkson made his debut as we know.
But I do consider this a breakout season for both
Heyes debuted 4 years ago and has 14 caps (4 starts)?
2 years to the world cup gives good time for a build up
Yeah ok
Neither are on the lions and ahern is taller
I didnt say coombes should start at 5 I said hes a th lock style backrow which is a bit different
Some suggestions I've heard that Ahern is more likely to see more gametime under MacMillan at 2nd row than 6, we'll see what way it works out.
It's a big season for him, but he had some big performances last season. Hopefully he can kick on.
