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Methods of farming

06608124

I am thinking of buying 12 acres with a derlict house. Im 35 and 0 experience in farming.

I would potentially do up the house to live in. I'm 37 and as I said, trump would know more about farming.

Would it be feasible for me to buy a few weanlings in spring and sell in the autumn to see how I get on after getting a herd number and building a crush and doing what I need to get herd number like fencing if needed etc?

I should have 45 acres to farm in 10 years after a lease is up on 20 acres I bought recently and rented out and to be done up and another 25 acres willed to me with the same story.

Would be hoping that by then I would know enough to be able to farm full time and make some money and leave a job I hate. Is it crazy ?

Wondering what best options/systems of farming would be for me. Would it be as simple as buying weanlings and selling in autumn with all the unknowns in between such as vet costs etc. Would starting v small and feeling my way be best option and looking for thoughts on what best business models would be!

What types of grants are going ( I know they may not be there in 10 years) and maybe I would need to buy entitlements.

I would contact an agent advisor but this place always has good advice too.

Thanks

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Say my name

You won't have a full-time income on 45 acres bar you went something specialist like fruit production and that's extremely stressful. So you'd better have a good pension sorted.

Probably more will pipe up on the cattle idea but you'd want to know what you are at too. Depending on where you are you could be better off taking in pig slurry and selling silage off the ground.

_Brian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058407474/methods-of-farming

A friend got caught in this sort of system when his heifers went down with TB. He wasn’t set up for wintering, said it was worst winter of his life till he got them sold in spring. Been renting out his land since.

Water John

Possibly need to consider, why? Are you driven by land ownership, like animals, like outdoors, self employment? Only by considering the why, can you begin to figure out the roadmap for yourself.

baxterooneydoody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123386536#Comment_123386536

It'll be 82 acres altogether in 10 years wif he buys the 12 acres

_Brian

not mine but funny

06608124

Well will be 57

06608124

Like outdoors, animals, walking the land, manual work, not having a boss etc

epfff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123386755#Comment_123386755

Do you like money?

Do you need money?

If the answer to either of these is yes then it's not a runner.

You need a 100 more acre's than you have to think about it. Then it's milking or sheep or something skilled and labour intensive.

It will take massive capital to set up farm and cover mistakes you will make in first 5 years. Have you access to this?

At 80 odd acre's it's a nice hobby if set up right and you might get price of family holiday or car each year.

Siamsa Sessions

Have you any land you can farm now?

If so, put up a crush and apply for a herd number. When you get that, buy 5-6 store cattle (300-400kg) and graze them til the weather turns bad in Oct/Nov.

You’ll get some idea of what’s involved then. Don’t plan any further ahead than that and be prepared to lose/invest on that research.

patsy_mccabe

…..

techman1

There is no money in grazing and selling in autumn time as you are going against market in both cases you are buying when there are loads of other buyers in spring time when weather is improving and selling in autumn time when weather is going bad and there are loads of other sellers, if you get a very wet autumn you are a forced seller, it's like a commodities trader buying oil contracts hoping oil will go up in price but if it goes the other way you can't take delivery of the oil anyway so you are forced to take whatever the market delivers

mr.stonewall

The crux I think seems to be waiting on the 45 acres to come back in 10 years. If it's just leased you could look to come out of the lease and take the hit on the tax relief. This would leave the potential for a 57acre farm which would be ideal to get set up part time. A simple dairy bred weanling/runner to beef/store would give you great option.

On the investment side. Crush is the first. Remember this now I think can be written off against tax over 2 years. I get the feeling that you have work outside of the farm and are potentially in the higher tax band.

Secondly a simple slatted shed will be needed long term, but when working it's a must. Again the accelerated cap ex kicks in here and tams would make it a cheap shed

How close is the 12 acres to the 45acres that is leased. This could give an option to do development on the 12 acres with the option of shortening the lease on the 45 acres.

Farming see great changes every 10 year. The 04-15 was the decoupling of payments, 15-now was the removal of milk quota and the dairy expansion. What will the next 10 year hold. Personally I feel livestock numbers are going to reduce further and the biggest issue for a lot of part-time farmers will be getting access to numbers of stock. The skills of calving and rearing stock less than 1 year old is disappearing. Add in age profile to the mix and it's a ticking time bomb for livestock numbers. Could be a golden age for those willing to pivot quickly

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123386953#Comment_123386953

that’s the best and simplest advice

OP, majority of beef/sheep farmers work off farm and the simple reason is that it is not financially viable to farm full time.

emaherx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058407474/methods-of-farming

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123386748#Comment_123386748

These types of questions often have somewhat negative responses. Often from those who have experience of similar farms/lifestyles and they are probably right to an extent to offer some realism, but I'd bet most wouldn't give it up for the world either.

Here's my experience of taking over a similarly sized farm in my mid-thirties, and where I am 8 years later.

After my Dad passed away, I took over an already established suckler herd, with well-equipped sheds/yard/equipment. There are only 10 acres attached to the yard and the rest is leased, I took over the existing lease agreements and have good entitlements that cover the lease cost.

This farm was never going to replace my well-paid permanent employment as a field service engineer. I struggled for a few years trying to do both. 4 years ago, my employer, a large multinational, was restructuring, as they do every few years. They offered voluntary severance packages and I had almost 18 years of service, so it suited me to take the opportunity to change direction. I actually liked the old job, but I had a few reasons to leave, including some family health issues; it wasn't all about going farming. I was initially going to use the severance money to expand the farm, but in the end, I decided to play it safe and use it to reduce the mortgage payments. We managed for a year and a half with my wife's full-time income + my small farm income, a small mortgage, and no childcare expense, but the cost of living crisis started making that a bit tight. During my time with no off-farm work, I started a software dev course and have since taken new employment with a farm software company, working from home and can choose how many hours I do. I currently do about 30 hours a week, and my wife has cut back to similar hours in her job, giving us more family time.

So I was pretty much given a working small farm, I probably broke it for a bit and eventually restructured it to suit my own way of working - I also changed from sucklers to calf/beef. To start from scratch is going to take some hard work and it won't be all rainbows, butterflies and unicorns, especially with zero farming experience. Livestock can be very rewarding and also heart-breaking, there is a lot to learn and re-learn.

If you want to buy this 12 acres, in the hope of replacing the day job in 10 years' time with a total of 57 acres, forget it now, it's very unrealistic.
If, however, you plan to buy it to live on, enjoy the lifestyle and also rear a few livestock with a plan to expand/diversify later, then go for it.
If you just hate your current job, then the above is not the solution, but change it anyway, re-train if necessary, and look at options that will suit your proposed farming lifestyle.
It does not need to be an all-or-nothing situation; keep other work as an option, full-time, part-time, WFH, maybe start a small business from home or the yard.
Do some courses, farming-related, maybe a husbandry micro-credential, calf-rearing course and/or other skills to change from your current career.

Buying weanlings and selling in the Autumn, as others have pointed out is not going to make much if anything some years. You need handling facilities, a crush and a small shed for sick animals to get the herd number. Other cattle enterprises will take more investment in both time and money, but would see better returns.

Personally, I'm an advocate of the small farm; some on here might not consider us real farmers, but I live and breathe farming. I've no intention of killing myself trying to own or farm 100's of acres but I'm happy to be small scale and work to improve on what I have, while developing software solutions for bigger farms.

Tibulus

I would caution against the system where you buy in spring and sell in autumn. This leaves you very exposed to fluctuations in the market. Are there opportunities to rent sheds ?

Would you consider sheep? There are good grants on the fencing and equipment.

I would encourage you to follow through on this, is a rewarding sideline. And the one piece of advice I would share is to look after your neighbours.

Aly Daly

Summer grazing would be a good way of learning about cattle,I would suggest that absolutely cattle should be seen twice a day & if there is any doubt whatsoever as to there health that an experienced neighbour is asked to see them & failing that the vet should be called out,missing something small can turn into disaster quickly.On a positive note my days farming have been a lifestyle I loved since childhood.

Water John

Lot of work in sheep. I would rank it next to dairying in term of demand. If getting into livestock, look at any tech that makes things easier.

06608124

I guess I would consider sheep only that I heard they are a nightmare. Would a system with sheep involve lambing and selling the lambs / keeping some ?

06608124

Thanks for the comment. Can I ask what type of system is best? And what are the various models of cattle farming asides from milking ?

epfff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123390683#Comment_123390683

You will have very steep and expensive learning curve if you are are at starting point of not knowing the different enterprises.

I would warn the store/cattle industry is equal to the Internet for con men/fraudsters. They mask themselves as friendly cattle dealers, factory agents, salesmen. They are a blight on industry adding no value to anything but taking a cut in middle if allowed.

You don't need any of them deal directly with marts, Miller's and processor's.

Dare I say uncle Larry is one of the few good guys that will treat you equally bad to everybody else

epfff

To answer question which system is best I would have to reply we need more information such as the land type, access to capital, labor, expertise, contractors available in area, personal interests and network of friends, level of return required, willingness to dig in by main stakeholders and many other things that aren't obvious.

I don't value Teagasc stats but they would say most of the enterprises are loss making or making pittens per HA.

I'm going to say without knowing enough background about your situation market gardening with small stand beside busiest road. Product range of spuds and traditional veg and salads incorporating small amounts of seasonal gardening plants using barley contracted out to break crop and use any extra ground.

Castlekeeper

Maybe have a look at the farming for nature website.

They have lots of examples of different types of farms as their ambassadors, from hobby to large scale across enterprises, they have videos on YouTube of discussions and q and a with the farmers.

They also host a series of farm walks every year where you would get a feel for things and meet people you could chat to.

NOTS.ie is another resource and they specialise in training. If you're thinking of hobbies or creating income, a small specialised enterprise in something your interested in might be an extra option. Eg beekeeping, salad growing. They also host farm walks.

If the house and land suit you, and the price is right, it should be a good investment anyway.

If the land is in all different places, it makes things inordinately more difficult, you'd be much better off with one farm than three separate pieces.

Also the quality of the land makes a difference to how you farm it, depending on weather etc.

Help a few different relatives or neighbour with stock for a few hours here and there and see how you like actually doing the work, you might say never again!

Lastly there are lots of books and YouTube channels from middle aged start-up small holders, hobby farmers, homesteaders etc., whose experiences you can learn from.

Good luck with it.

06608124

Lots of great advice. Thanks

06608124

Thanks. Can I ask. What types of grant do you get if you raise sheep or cattle

epfff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123391108#Comment_123391108

Nothing unless you farmed back 2000/2001/2002 or qualified as young farmer since.

But now you are are a farmer you have to join the elite in the struggle for them to keep payments and take your share of abuse from non farmers that they are paying you/you get lots of money for nothing.

Don't get me started.

emaherx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123391108#Comment_123391108

It's hard to quantify, we all have different entitlements for BISS and there are several different extra schemes that you can apply for most of which will require actions to be completed in order to receive payments.

If you bought the 12 acres, you may also need to purchase entitlements, as they may or may not be included in the land sale. Purchase cost is usually about 2 times their value, mine for example are worth about 300 a hectare for BISS but they also receive an additional CRISS and ECO payment so I get a little over 400 a hectare. Values are based on historical farm payments, but are currently being adjusted each year to move values towards the national average (convergence).

You will not get anything extra to keep weanlings for summer grazing.

There is €20 a calf to rear and weigh dairy/beef calves (max €1000 for 50 calves)
There are a few different schemes for sucklers.
There are also environmental schemes like ACRES (Probably not much money to be made, but it's funding to improve the place)
Organics is also an option (But can be very restrictive)

I've no idea about sheep, but I know there are payments available. Sheep are a lot of work, but on 12 acres, they might be a better option than cattle, it's not a huge area to fence and lambs finish quickly so cash flow would be easier to manage. But you would need to be breeding them and have to learn how to deal with lambing, dagging, dipping, shearing and all of the potential health issues.

emaherx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123391463#Comment_123391463

It's not exactly true.
They can purchase entitlements (It may still be worth purchasing low value entitlements as they are increasing in value).
They're also under 40 and may still just about have enough time to qualify as a young farmer.

techman1

Lot of work in sheep. I would rank it next to dairying in term of demand. If getting into livestock, look at any tech that makes things easier.

And they all have to be handled for shearing and dipping etc, very labour intensive. Difficulty getting them sheared as not many young guys interested in that heavy labour any more. Also you need 5 sheep for every one cow so 5 times the numbers of animals to handle. Foot rot has to be the worst affliction in sheep. They get lots of things big stock don't get.

Aly Daly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123391589#Comment_123391589

I don't think sheep would be a good place to start with someone highly inexperienced,as I said before start with a few dry cattle & have a neighbour look at them if there is any inkling of a problem.

emaherx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123391589#Comment_123391589

Have you done much with dairying or sheep? Hard to believe 12 acres stocked with sheep is going to be anywhere near as labour-intensive as even the most modest dairy operation.