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Does the Le Pen Conviction Finally Prove Democracy is Dead in the West?

ArcadiaJunction

The writing has been on the wall since we were told to "go back and vote for the Lisbon Treaty the right way next time". But after the Le Pen stitch-up, along with the events in Romania and Germany were every effort is made to ignore the popular vote in favour of the Globalists, I would be interested in hearing from people who think all this stuff is how democracy should work and why only Left and Far Left Politics is allowed to exist?

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mountain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123316702#Comment_123316702

that you put Ian Bailey and great man in the same sentence says a lot about you

Hermy

"go back and vote for the Lisbon Treaty the right way next time"

It's mad that there are still people peddling this line.

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123316702#Comment_123316702

@StormForce13 , So you think Baily was innocent then, the concept of being convicted in absentia is not unique to France.

RobbingBandit

Democracy is a manipulative concept

Power to the people, it masks the fact that the people and power are as they have always been oligarchy only those in charge wield the power and only for themselves or their own interests.

Allowing the ants to cast a stone creates the illusion that this action represent me because I chose to cast my stone for those in power.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123316688#Comment_123316688

It didn’t when it was Legarde, and the left leaning politicians who were convicted of the exact same crime as Le Pen weren’t barred either. So it’s only certain political parties who get the full punishment.

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123316748#Comment_123316748

Democratic processes have always failed the people over time because politicians will use every opportunity to wiggle out of rules to push an agenda, remain in power. Chump and January 6th was the more blatant attempt at this.

Just finished reading Animal farm.the line in italics reminded me of a pice from it

Early on the one of the rules was

no animal shall sleep in a human bed

pigs then moved into the house and started sleeping in the beds

new rule

no animal shall sleep in a human bed with sheets

pigs didn't use the sheets😀

Kaybaykwah

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123319063#Comment_123319063

Excellent story to illustrate "Le Pig Pen".

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123316816#Comment_123316816

Sarkozy was convicted. So was Chirac, who you don't mention. The French are actually pretty good about prosecuting errant politicians.

I don't know who's telling your that Le Pen has been singled out and that her conviction was a stitch-up, but you should definitely stop listening to them because they are making you look very gullible, which is probably not the look you are reaching for.

briany

It proves that knee-jerk reactionary thinking is very much alive and well. That the definition of witch hunt is authorities having the gall to go after a politician you like.

They said the same thing with Trump and his various court cases, with the funny thing being, there, that it proved high-profile right wing political figures are treated far too gently, if anything, because any regular person accused of similar would be under the jail.

Le Pen can, of course, appeal the verdict.

Kaybaykwah

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123319111#Comment_123319111

It’s also a well established fact that the RN party’s coffers were bare a while back, and that a Russian bank loan (ahem, right…) filled them.

In another era, the Communist party in France was vilified for the very thing these guys are doing. The difference is they are now aligned with a trans-European right wing agenda, with Putin as an inspiration.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123319049#Comment_123319049

Straight from the "lets pretend something different is the exact same" playbook

twinytwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123316857#Comment_123316857

Would be interesting to see the EU parliament do an audit of some sort. I would be surprised if this wasn't the tip of the iceberg. Id say this sort of thing goes on whole sail for all sides of the political spectrum.

JJayoo

Putin and Vance think it's a disgrace

Kaybaykwah

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123319574#Comment_123319574

lol

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123319574#Comment_123319574

When fascists don't like it, this gives me comfort that it's a solidly democratic application of the rule of law.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058404751/does-the-le-pen-conviction-finally-prove-democracy-is-dead-in-the-west

You don't get to define what democracy is and then get all upset when it doesn't work out that way. Switzerland and Ireland have directed democracy and there is nothing in either constitution to prevent them from reconsidering issues as often as they like and both countries have on several occasions done so, sometimes reaffirming their decision and some time changing their minds.

Next, concerning the Lisbon treaty, the Irish constitution specifically restricts the role of the government to negotiations only and in a negotiation there is obligation on either party to accept or reject a single offer and then walk away that is not how negotiations work despite your misconceptions. And given the size of the EU now it is very likely we will vote several times on issues in future so you better get used to it. The voters didn't vote twice on the same proposal, they voted to accept the proposal they felt best suited them.

Unlike the US and the UK, both Ireland and France have a very strong definition of the separation of powers. Le Pen was convicted by an independent judiciary of committing fraud on the peoples of France and the EU. Claiming otherwise is not supported by the facts and your opinions are not facts.

Such contempt for actual democracy and the rule of law while decrying a lack democracy is called fascism. You need to figure out which side you are on.

Boggles

She stole millions in tax payers money?

What am I missing here?

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123325823#Comment_123325823

Exactly.

Just like Alexei Navalny, Ekrem Imamoglu, and many before them, she stole taxpayers money and deserves her punishment.
(Unlike those two, you won't hear any outcry from politicians and NGO's on her behalf, strangely enough).

jimgoose

Marine Le Pen is somewhat less deranged than the likes of Tulsi Gabbard and Marjorie Taylor Greene, but she is a highly dangerous threat to democracy and the whole European way of life and the farther away she's kept from elections the better. Giorgia Meloni is another one.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123325997#Comment_123325997

Unfortunately, if we go down the path of keeping people we don't like away from elections, then we may as well do away with the elections altogether, as we won't be living in a democracy any more.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123326126#Comment_123326126

As I said before you don't get to define democracy! It is nothing more than the set of rules a country agrees to be governed by. Le Pen directly challenged the rule of law in France and this is direct threat to their democracy. She has shown contempt for their democracy and was convicted on such charges, so we are not talking about someone we don't like.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123326150#Comment_123326150

As I said before you don't get to define democracy!

democracy/dɪˈmɒkrəsi/

noun

a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives."a system of parliamentary democracy"

What are you on about? Democracy is well defined at this stage, it's been around for two and a half thousand years. You don't get to decide that democracy suddenly means "only people I agree with".

Le Pen directly challenged the rule of law in France and this is direct threat to their democracy

What utter rubbish is this? Does everyone who is accused of using taxpayer funds for the wrong purpose "challenge the rule of law and threaten democracy" Good Lord man, get a grip. If that's the case, there are plenty of FFFG politicians presently in the Dail who should be locked up.

As I've repeatedly said, Le Pen fully deserves any legal ramifications of her actions. But she no more "threatened democracy" than some lad lifting a bouteille de vin from his local Carrefour.

mazdamiatamx5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058404751/does-the-le-pen-conviction-finally-prove-democracy-is-dead-in-the-west

"why only Left and Far Left politics is allowed to exist?"

Ah yes, such as the raving far leftie Macron who favours cutting corporate taxation (and indeed has done so), advocates cutting civil service jobs by 125,000, favours labour market reforms (to weaken the unions) and is against increasing taxes on the rich. What a commie!

Kaybaykwah

She is aptly named, "Le pen" is short for “the pen", as in penitentiary.

Peregrinus

As I've repeatedly said, Le Pen fully deserves any legal ramifications of her actions. But she no more "threatened democracy" than some lad lifting a bouteille de vin from his local Carrefour.

Corruption in public office is quite different from a private theft. Yes, it injures and undermines the republic in a way that stealing wine from a supermarket does not.

Right-wingers can rarely see this. Which, possibly, helps to explain why they are right-wingers.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058404751/does-the-le-pen-conviction-finally-prove-democracy-is-dead-in-the-west

The writing has been on the wall since we were told to "go back and vote for the Lisbon Treaty the right way next time".

No, it wasn't, it really really wasn't, and Lisbon wasn't the first time.

The government are allowed run any referendum they want, and the electorate are allowed to change their minds.

Sure what's the point of having general elections then - we picked a set of TDs five years ago and now they want us to vote again 😛

Or - we voted on abortion in 1983, why did they make us vote again in 2018 🤔

Le Pen got caught with her fingers in the till, to NOT charge her because she's a politician would prove democracy is dead in the West

So - provocative thread title fail.

(Note to self - in future don't bother replying to posts which contain the word 'globalist' 🙄)

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123316637#Comment_123316637

There's a common theme here how the right love to play up the judiciary / police until they actually get caught out themselves (and they do very often and in multiple countries usually taking bribes from questionable sources).

This.

With the RW it's always financial fraud or sex crime

When they accuse their opponents of doing something you can bet your ass they're doing the same thing, only worse.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058404751/does-the-le-pen-conviction-finally-prove-democracy-is-dead-in-the-west

As compared to, for example, section 31 in the republic, which meant not only that elected members of Sinn Fein couldn't be heard in the Irish media, but also led to John Hume being abused and insulted by the Irish establishmdent for daring to speak to the IRA?

So, no. I would say that unless Marine Le Pen was found guilty on invented charges (which is unlikely given that other French politicians have been found guilty of similar charges in the past and been declared ineligible, it's no more the end of democracy than section 31 was. Probably less.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123316759#Comment_123316759

What they were doing was holding FF's feet to the fire on the promises they made - Labour were naturally sceptical of FF's bona fides (they should've gone Rainbow in the first place, but it's uncertain whether FG would have entertained DL at that point)

Sup with the devil, bring a long spoon and all that.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123316816#Comment_123316816

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56237818

Why are you making stuff up?

https://apnews.com/article/france-court-ruling-sarkozy-corruption-715483927ad6dfc7799ca8a9f28303cf

https://www.france24.com/en/france/20240424-french-court-confirms-ex-pm-fillon-s-conviction-in-fake-jobs-scandal