https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2025/03/15/cairn-homes-offers-clontarf-golf-club-land-swap-as-several-thousand-new-homes-envisaged/
Hopefully they don’t bite
There has been talk of this for as long as I can remember. It'll probably happen someday
Why? Idle curiosity on my behalf. Dun Laoghaire did this a few years ago, thousands of homes were built and they got a fabulous new golf course
It was done and dusted during the Celtic Tiger, but developer went bust before a sod was turned. The difference then was every member would get a 6 figure cash sum, this time it looks like just a straight swap.
I've played it a few times and while it's a nice track, it's very compact. Holes are basically on top of each other. Thinking of the green on the first par 3. There is a tee box and another green within about 25 feet of the green. If you are wayward (guilty), then it can be dangerous in some instances. Any hole on the front 9, a hook or a slice ends up on the adjoining fairway. Never heard so many shouts of fore.
I'm not the biggest fan because it seems a bit of a stuffy club but if they went for this then they'd have a brand new facility. Seems a no-brainer to me.
They voted in favour back about 2006/2007. Then the money dried up and it never proceeded.
Voted against in 2021 - most likely as they were not sure it could be done as promised by the proposers.
Cairn homes have a good reputation and deep pockets - just like Cosgraves proposal in Dun Laoghaire. I suspect a spanking new club house and world class course 15 minutes away and a few bob will be very enticing.
There's a course around Belfast moving I think as well, Balmoral. McGinley designing their new course 3 miles from current club. Plus read about a few in UK too. All seems to come down to insurance issues regarding stray balls landing in houses and roads that weren't there years ago when the clubs were built.
There's a slight issue with Clontarf. They don't own most of the land.
Who owns it?
Dublin City Council own most of it.
why do you say that. Just curious
It's in the initial proposal from GLC to DCC to rezone the land. Clontarf GC owns 10.6 acres, DCC own 62 under long term lease to the golf club and 2.6 acres of the proposed site is owned by CIE.
With no cash consideration, I can't envisage a situation where a straight swap for land/a course in Kinsealy is agreed by (2/3rds of) a membership base who are mostly very local and certainly not on the younger side on average.
Clontarf is a great course in its own way. Par 69, old style urban course. Very full categories of membership, including junior and ladies.
Being short, with no serious elevation, it is very playable for elder members.
Handles a phenomenal volume of rounds each year and is always in decent condition. There's a case for putting a preservation order on such places.
From Talking to members of Dun Lagaoire over the years what I'd suggest Clontarf should do is to try keep a Premise at their current venue. A smalll club house that has a bar/gym/function room/swing room and could host Dinners as its location is convenient for most of its members.
I would usually agree with the preservation order but to me, having played it, it seems a very closed shop and for an urban course with so many people in it's catchment area, I don't think that is a good thing at all. Everytime I've played there the members seem to view visitors as second-class citizens, it's always had a very unwelcoming vibe for me.
I also got paired up with a guy from South Africa who was a BIG hitter off the tee and he ended up on an opposite fairway. His ball didn't hit anyone and he did shout fore but as we were walking up to the 9th green, a man claiming to be 'the president' got up in his face and was shouting at him and told us that he was going to get us ejected and banned from the course for dangerous play. A fourball of elderly members then snaked us on the 10th tee and wouldn't let us play through despite us politely asking them.
My playing partner had travelled the world playing golf and was on holiday in Ireland and I had to explain that not everywhere was like Clontarf which was embarrassing.
It really soured my view of the place.
I'd a very similar experience there a few years back. I wouldn't go near that place if it was the last course left in Ireland!
You aren't the first to say that to me! If we are truly trying to grow the game, I don't think somewhere like that has a place in golf anymore to be truly honest.
I live close to Clontarf and I know many members there. What you've observed may be true of a small number. I would say that many established clubs have a similar cohort. I also know that some visitors go there with a preconceived notion of what it's like. I've personally never had any issues.
My points about the course stand.
I play Clontarf every year that I can in The Lord Mayors Cup. It’s one of my favourite events of the year, well run and incredibly friendly.
Yeah.
But you are Royalty..🙃
Have to say your experience was not what I had when our metro cup team played them a few years back. Thought they were gentlemen and even invited us into the members bar after for drinks, unlike the other Northside parkland with 27 holes that pretty much turfed our team out of their members bar in the previous round. Every club has a few assholes, you must have been unlucky.
As they have a long term lease on the land, the commercial value is a multiple of whatever rent they pay.
In commercial lease deals you have an absolute right to a new lease upon expiration of a lease unless you have signed a renunciation agreement or the lease is less than 5 years.
So whilst they don't "own" the land, they do have near total control of the land.
I do agree with @Ronney - keeping the clubhouse or similar for pavilion members and non golf events would be a great sweetener that would go down well with older members who may not play much
Obviously there's real pressure for extra housing in urban areas but I do think there's something great about suburban courses. Do we have to fill every green space with housing? Kids able to cycle or walk to the club and adults able to stroll down for a few pints. I wonder did the likes of dun Laoghaire lose that community feel when they moved out to the countryside?
It's not much use to those that are not members though? Green spaces in urban centres should really benefit all.
Interesting point and something that should be taken into account, if and when the new course is built. The new Dun Laoghaire was built as a 'big' course (7000 from back tees, 5600 from reds) so the older members must have struggled to adapt to the shape and scale of their new course. It would be great to see Clontarf's new course designed to accommodate the older members by creating appropriate tees/length… and not just a lump of 'tee' plonked at the start of the fairway.
I get your point, but the green lung of a golf course provides benefits that reach beyond the golf course perimeter. If a golf course is turned into a park, for all to enjoy, that's one thing, but given the demand for houses I don't imagine we are going to see that happening any time soon.
As others have said, many clubs have contingents of members who behave as if their course is their own personal fiefdom. I've had confrontations over the years - I suspect most of us have, including at our own club - and sometimes you have to shrug and ignore those pillocks.
It's all well and good having green spaces in an urban environment. Not so much if you can't walk in the gate without dropping an 8 grand entrance fee plus 1500 membership though.
”So whilst they don't "own" the land, they do have near total control of the land.”
Do they though? Are most such leases from the council “for social and recreational purposes”?
i.e. if the club themselves decided to build houses on the course they would be in breech or the lease.
Irish Rail are planning to expand to four tracks alongside the club, where there's currently just two. That'll surely mean taking some ground from the golf course. I believe the feasibility is done, but the results aren't out yet.
You could always walk in the gate and pay the visitors green fee which is considerably cheaper?
Would have a considerable impact on the 3rd and 12th as both run adjacent to the tracks.
I have done previously and had the experience that I mentioned above. Lately, you cannot get a tee time online - have a look for yourself. Seems a closed shop to me. https://visitors.brsgolf.com/clontarf#/course/1
