I wonder how this will work out for him
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Burke's suspension happened as a result of him haranguing the principal at a school mass. It was not because of conscientious objections. And if the Burke families approach to haranguing politicians including the Taoiseach is remotely similar, it's entirely warranted that he's out of a job.
Also the fact they were nice to interact with isn't remotely relevant. Their public conduct for the last decade has been frankly horrible. Their homophobia and transphobia has been vicious, their personal attacks on politicians has been vicious. So they're very much so deserving of ridicule.
He did travel with them. He was at the protest with them earlier in the day.
What possible forum exists that would see them 'calmly put forward their points?'. They have shouted at judges in courtrooms, shouted at local and national politicians in their home town, ignored questions and talked over interviewers from Irish media only this week in Washington. It's clear that any forum that involves speaking is not going to work anyway.
Political leanings are not a binary state. It's a spectrum, just like other aspects of life.
He might have been filming it.
I haven't seen any explanation for how the Burkes managed to get into the National Building Museum to make their protest.
Surely with the VIPs attending, and this being the USA, there would have been serious security at the event.
My thought is that the Burkes have support from their evangelical friends in the US and they had insider assistance to get into the event.
these “friends” are they in the room with us now?
If they have a legal argument, then the courtroom is where they should put it forward. But they don't take this option. They seem to be more interested in martyr like behaviour. I assume they believe their actions are pleasing to their god. I can't understand otherwise why they'd behave the way they do.
I was listening to the Irish Times Political podcast just now from yesterday. Pat Leahy was on, he was at the event. He said security wasn't very tight at all. In previous years if the president was there then it would have been super tight but as the president wasn't there it wasn't hard to just wander in.
Hopefully this stunt will motivate authorities to stop letting this circus continue back in ireland. Its a joke.
How do you stop the circus though? They are entitled to protest.
That said, they aren't allowed to interfere with court cases, but I doubt there can be a blanket ban on them attending a court.
Mod: New Scottman is on a little break, their post and one replying to it have been deleted.
they are entitled to peaceful protest they are not entitled to interfere with private events or accost people on the streets or while at work.
Things like Enoch entering the school building and walking into staff meetings etc is just not something they’re entitled to do.
I agree with you. So what would your suggestion be? It's not quite so simple to deal with it.
Enoch is easier to deal with. Any time he goes near the school, send him off for a holiday in Mountjoy. If he keeps doing it, make the holidays longer and longer.
Harder to deal with the rest of the family. I know there are loads saying lock them up, but it's not that simple. Lock them up if they cause an inconvenience or disruption at a private event is an option but I can't see that happening. We will end up having to lock up everyone who trespasses, or causes a nusiance, and, in fairness, what's the point of a protest if you don't cause a nusiance?
I know they are a pain in the hole, but it isn't simple to stop them.
Yeah it's very difficult to stop them as they know the law so well and don't care for any reputational damage.
They're also not trying to win they're just trying to not lose and this involves stringing everything out for as long as possible on very minor technical grounds.
If they were trying to win they would be approaching this in a completely different and professional manner. The core argument of should someone be compelled to use certain pronouns on religious grounds is something they might possibly win.
They dressed up and were white.
I agree with all that, which is why I was surprised to hear you talking about a forum for them to calmly put forward points. They don't want to do it calmly whenever there is an opposing point of view. Therefore there can be no such forum.
A good piece by Jennifer Connell in today's irish times sums them up. Show up at a public event with placards, ignore media questions, do some shouting, get physically removed while falling over or being dragged out by the arms or legs. Go home happy they've somehow achieved something. Rinse and repeat.
The very reason they behave so wildly is because they have no rational arguments.
They have defamed and abused and harassed many people who did nothing to deserve what happened to them.
As you really, really should know by now, Enoch was not sacked due to anything to do with pronouns. It was because of his vile behaviour towards his boss - the principal.
Enoch could have calmly challenged that directive, he would have lost imho - but he chose to be an aggressive prick and has to bear the consequences of his behaviour.
You're giving him a lot of leeway he doesn't deserve tbh. And assuming he'd be OK with calling the pupil who was "John" last week, "Mary" this week - as if.
There is no "debate".
Either one is a transphobe or one is not.
I'm not going to accept any shít in this regard from ignorant people.
Educate yourself.
There most certainly is!
Who are are you to stiffle discussion.
That's really not good enough for an event our Taoiseach is attending.
Not true at all this is where it gets silly with your type of attitude. That is strangely dogmatic. You are creating issues for the sake of it. Which is really unhelpful. You are as dogmatic as the Burkes on the other side. In your own way.
I will give you a practical example in Irish Hiberno-English the common expression in a pub would be when a person was talking to someone you don’t know,
Would be “Whose yer wan/ whose yer man?”
Now I am asking a simple question what would the trans equivalent be? If I knew they were trans? If I didn’t do I break into a cold sweat for fear of causing offence? Is it zum/zie/zir?
Or do I just stick to “howaya horse what’s the craic?” And avoid the minefield. No problem if I know the person’s name (I would stick to that) , but if I didn’t I’d be all over the shop. Not knowing what is the appropriate. It wouldn’t be a natural flow of speech for me and it would feel forced otherwise.
From what have learnt these pronouns are a fairly recent American invention. Are there Irish Hiberno-English versions yet?
I saw a program (current affairs) on pronouns trans etc. The really funny part was the non-trans pro- “new” pronouns person kept breaking into him/her instead of they/them (for the trans person in studio)
Much to their own embarrassment. As him/her was much more natural parlance for this person even though they were all for the new pronouns. She tied herself in knots with the language and the studio audience started laughing.
If you weren’t sure, who are they would suffice - but really if you aren’t aware that someone is trans and you mistakenly misgender them then it won’t be an issue as long as you treat them with the respect they’re asking for by using their preferred pronouns after that.
And that’s what this is really about, just not being an àsshole to someone. You don’t have to understand or agree with it, just have some basic respect that you would have for anyone.
Enoch could have kept his job while not agreeing with transgenderism for religious reasons, but he completely lost the head, decided that his personal beliefs were so important that everyone else needed to accommodate them to the point where he hysterically lashed out - in other words, he was a complete àsshole with no respect for anyone else’s position and rightly felt the consequences of that.
Grand at least I got an explanation it basically kills my usual “yer man or yer wan” expression in a trans scenario.But percentage wise of such a scenario arising are very slim.
Funny enough though, I was in the gym there recently, I honestly wasn’t sure whether the person was male/female due to severe weight issues - not a trans issue. Just knew them to see, type thing.
So when I got the chance I asked the person’s name. I was very relieved as I could have really dug a hole for myself by saying “yer wan” and shattered the person’s confidence. As the person is male!
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I agree with you on Burke he was just looking for a crusade. The definition of indoctrination.
The student is not even in his class for a start. And the principal seemed willing to make allowances for him which is fair enough.
Instead it is basically the worst advertisement for his religion you could get. As the majority of religions have some level of tolerance/compassion.
Other people's lives aren't up for debate.
Christ on a bike, a few Saturday wines turns some into a Burke. If there's no debate whose going to stop Ignorant people siding with the Burkes anyway.
There's an irony to that saying it's binary.
The rest could easily be said by the Burkes except I'm not sure if they would use the exact phrase.
its as clear as day that the Burkes are uncivilised..
to be civilised should be a pre requisite for any job.
Just heard on the radio that one of the papers (I missed which one she said) is reporting that the Phelps family from the Baptist Church crowd have condemned the Burke's actions.
Maybe they behave like they do because Enoch has been locked in jail for 513 days, maybe they feel that this is very unjust, just saying !
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