Many of you may have accepted long ago that things move at a snail's pace here and that's just how it is, but I haven't.
Well, that was the first “dig” I made at you, and it was out of exasperation. I made that comment because you appear to have arrived at a conclusion and are dismissing contrary arguments out of hand because they disagree with it. Also, you’re assuming that your experience trumps that of anyone else. I’ve friends who brought projects far bigger than this to completion - they don’t go around claiming to be better than anyone else, which is probably why they're so good at their job.
I'm surprised you don’t seem to accept that an organisation would wait until the legal doubts around their project are cleared before putting it out to tender. Again, would you, as a vendor, tender for something where it’s not even clear you’ll be allowed do the work? If you do, you’ll add a contingency to your bid straight away, and so will everyone else. Again: risk is cost.
It's **** that a JR can hold up the thing like this, but what’s the alternative? Waste money? That’s “our” money they’d be wasting. And as the depot is already needs reworking, why try press ahead with a part of the project. Potential constructors want to see the whole thing, and then they can decide what to tender for. Doing it in chunks makes their life harder, and when their life is harder… yep, they charge more.
As for status reports, just because you aren’t hearing what's happening, it does not follow that nothing is happening. Public communications are managed for a reason - people can quickly get the wrong end of the stick, and the last thing this project needs is someone else getting bright ideas about opposing it. Write to the Minister for Transport and ask him what the story is: that’s the proper channel.
have no evidence that IÉ is not “busting its ass” to resolve the depot issue
My comment about busting asses was not about the depot, it was about the project in general.
But you're right, in fact we have no evidence of anything. If there's a plan in place, if there's work planned, let's hear it. On that note…
they don’t have to make anything public until the new design is ready for review
Should a public body be aiming for the absolute bare legal minimum of disclosure?
Does the public not deserve to hear about this, since we're the ones funding it and the ultimate end users? Why should we be reliant on rumours and half-truths and guys on boards who may or may not work for them?
There is no date for a new plan, no date for start of work, there is no date for completion. I'm sorry, this isn't good enough.
The current situation is most likely that tendering is waiting for the JR to be resolved.
That's exactly the problem and exactly my objection. To call it bad project management is a massive understatement.
We all love a good moan, but there’s a point where you have to accept that you’re not the only person with an ounce of competence in the world
Again, more digs at me. Can't we just debate the trains like?
That would make sense being that unlike Greystones it would likely have the platform capacity to do that, however I just can't find info about that (which to be fair there isn't much info about ending direct services).
That said, if people already aren't happy about having to change at Greystones, I don't think asking them to change at Wicklow Town, even if just as a temporary measure while a third Greystones platform is being built, is going to end well.
@Former Former Former : You’re making an assertion here based on not much more than your own pessimism, without evidence to support it. If, as you say, IÉ is incapable of completing this project there would be some indication out there that this is happening. For instance there is more than one poster here who clearly works either at IÉ or a supplier, and we haven’t heard anything like your claim from them. The current situation is most likely that tendering is waiting for the JR to be resolved. You work in programme management: how likely would you be to engage a vendor at a good price if there’s a threat that the works will be reduced or cancelled by a judge? Risk is cost.
Meanwhile, IÉ has been quietly delivering the various enabling works for DART+ that didn’t require a Railway Order for the last two years, and the fleet rollout (also no RO needed) is proceeding on schedule.
I’m sorry, but your claim doesn’t fit with what we’ve seen already. You have no evidence that IÉ is not “busting its ass” to resolve the depot issue: they don’t have to make anything public until the new design is ready for review.
We all love a good moan, but there’s a point where you have to accept that you’re not the only person with an ounce of competence in the world, and that other people may actually know what they’re doing.
Strange take. Insults and nitpicking while ignoring the substantive points are usually a good sign you've won the argument.
Here's some research for you. All IE's documents and the Railway Order itself refer to it as the Maynooth Depot. The word Kilcock does not appear anywhere in the RO.
I assume the floodplains you’re referring to are the ones in Kilcock and not Maynooth.
Maybe if you’re going to rant away, do some research and get your facts right.
Also, one of the quickest, most surefire ways of losing a judicial review is to continue to announce progress on that project.
Until the judge makes a decision on the bridge at Ashtown, there'll be nothing announced in this, regardless of the work being done in the background.
Irish Rail have plenty of problems, but a lack of delivery isn't really one of them. They've been quietly working away on projects that have been very successful in terms of future proofing, but lack the kind of PR that something like the Luas has generated.
They've been working on upgrading the signalling across the entire network, they've built and are currently commissioning the new national train control centre, they've dinner several other smaller projects that haven't become bogged down in litigation or a political quagmire.
The fact is that they have been working away on projects that they've been allowed to work on. Up until recently, governments were basically only focused on roads, which had now mercifully changed.
On dart+ progress, I'm pretty sure that they're continuing with tendering, despite the depot set back. This takes time, and while it prefer it to be done now, that's not realistic.
As I said, Irish Rail definitely have problems, but I think some people are confusing Irish Rails issues with our legal and planning system issues.
Fair enough - but that explains why they can't do it, it doesn't change the reality on the ground that this is beyond them.
I work in a job that involves long-term planning of complex projects too. If we hit a setback on one part of the project, we bust our asses to get everything else moving so that when the setback is resolved, it just slots into place and overall delay is minimised. IE are doing the exact opposite.
You thanked a post above which says that IE cannot legally do anything until the judicial review is resolved. That is factually wrong. If people don't even know the basics of the legislation, perhaps they should refrain from commenting.
If the High Court throws out the judicial review and the RO is unchanged, we'll have lost a year of the project. Even if the High Court sides with the objector, the project is still going ahead in a modified form. IE should be putting the boot down and tearing into every single piece of work that is not related to Ashtown or the flood plains of Maynooth.
If IE down tools completely at every single snag, the thing will never get built. Unfortunately, that seems to be what is happening. Meanwhile the consultants' bills will keep piling up and the train service remains in the Victorian era.
It is four and a half years since the first public consultation. If we see electric rail in Dublin West by 2035 I'll be (pleasantly) surprised.
The last “large scale infrastructure project” of any kind that IÉ did was the Kildare Route project in 2011. That was “only” €22 million, but it was done on time, on budget.
From then until 2019, not one cent was allocated to railway works by government. Nothing was delivered, but not from any lack of competence. (It’s a wonder that services on the network actually increased in that time)
Before the KRP, the entire rail network was re-laid with the old jointed tracks replaced with modern, continuously-welded track through mid-1990s. You didn’t even notice it happening.
Before that, you have to go back to DART, which also met its budget and schedule. At this point, though, we’re back over 40 years, so there’s no comparison that can be drawn with IÉ today.
DART+ Fleet isn’t an infrastructure project per se, but from current progress, the first group will be ready to go into service as soon as Alstom delivers the final units.
If Irish Rail are not capable of delivering large infrastructure projects, it's because they have not been given the funding and the permission go go ahead with such projects for many years. Its not like the case of the HSE whare the lack of capability is self-evident.
Delivering large scale infrastructure projects.
They’re not capable of doing what specifically?
I’m under the impression that they could proceed with tenders while the JR is in progress but it’s risky as the outcome of the JR could have serious effects on the project’s makeup. A private sector operator would weigh it up and go ahead, but IR are highly risk averse.
You do understand that IÉ cannot legally do any works until the JR is resolved right?
I don’t understand that because it’s not true.
Unless there’s a High Court order to stop the work (which I certainly haven’t heard about), there is absolutely no legal impediment to proceeding. It’s literally written in the legislation as such.
Is there such an order? Because if not, it is only the sloth of IE that is holding things up.
Because they aren’t capable.
Once all the external obstacles are gone, they have no more excuses left. That’s the last thing they want.
I’m certainly not a fan of Irish Rail, but we have game changing plans for the Greater Dublin Area.
Take the proposal to close level crossings to decrease travel time for commuters. Who’s blocking those plans? Is it Irish Rail? Are politicians rowing in behind IR for the greater good?
If the characterisation in the last few posts was true, IÉ would not be the single largest customer for BEMU trains in Europe. BEMUs are not yet a tried and trusted technology for commuter rail, so an organisation that was in “fear of failure” would have scaled back its ambitions to avoid using them. And yet, those very same BEMUs are starting to arrive, and are being tested for deployment.
DART+ is a single €2.2 billion programme of works. The planning was split for very good reasons, but the best value for the State will be realised if the total works are put out for tender as one package. That means tendering waits until it’s clear what can be built. Also, on a project this size, you have to give the potential tenderers notice as well; here’s the project notification for that: eTenders
Note that this notice is only for the line and station works. It excludes DART+ Fleet, which is already in progress.
It’s frustrating that things are slow, but this is the largest rail works project in the country’s history - expecting it to happen in a few months is unrealistic.
I've never worked with IE so can't comment directly on them but at least based off the state of our railways I'd say there's a similar culture to many of our other public bodies, where the mentality when confronted with a new proposal is usually to dig in and come up with reasons why it can't be done, why it needs to be watered down or to be over-complicated and drawn out. Ambition and pragmatism just aren't in their dictionary.
You do understand that IÉ cannot legally do any works until the JR is resolved right? And they're not doing nothing about the Depot, they've launched a separate depot project which is at site selection stage.
Fear of change, fear of failure?
Why would they be delighted to not do anything?
its a wonder anything ever get done.
Nothing ever gets done, that’s my point.
Case in point, the Dart West. Planning was granted by ABP in July, finance is in place, the NTA is on board. Everyone except IE has done their part, but here we are six months later and nothing has happened. And by “nothing”, I mean quite literally zero.
It was mentioned in the Dail a couple of weeks ago that because of the rejection of the depot at Maynooth and the judicial review of Ashtown, IE are examining the issues “before a decision on the next steps is made.” IE have no idea what to do and they’re delighted to have an excuse not to do anything.
We are still at least ten years from electric trains in Dublin West despite all the necessary supports being in place.
If you think IE are anything other than incompetent, then you don’t get the train very often.
The preferred plan is to have the Rosslare passengers interchange to the hourly dart service at Wicklow when it is introduced.
Has there been any update on the third D+ fleet order? There was talk about it being placed before the end of 2024, but it seems that never happened. I believe these are supposed to be the units that will replace the 8100s? If that is still the case I would hope the order is placed soon.
The 20 minute service would only be practically possible (and is only planned) with a list of upgrades that IE have been trying to finalise for years now. It includes twin-tracking and relocating points south of Bray Station, as well as twin-tracking from south of the last Bray Head tunnel to (I think?) the first bridge in Greystones. From memory, it is supposed to add about 1-2km of twin-track between the two stations. The speed improvements from closing the unattended LC, might help a bit as well though I think in comparison will be marginal, I think the safety improvement is the main benifit. But I don't think it is was ever even considered an option to introduce 3tph to Greystones without some upgrades. All the upgrades will allow the 20 minute frequency to operate while allowing for reasonable delays.
I know IE has talked about turning Greystones-Rosslare into a shuttle service, but I personally believe that plan has been put on hold for now. Especially being that the D+ South Stage 1 plans don't include a third platform at Greystones Station, which would be required for the shuttle service. I think it will happen eventually to allow for extra DART capacity, but I personally don't see it happening before the Waterford-Rosslare line is reopened and Rosslare/Wexford town services are redirected along the line to Heuston. IE is going to have to do everything they can to make the a shuttle service seem as inticing as possible, and even then they are still going to have to fight to get the changes implemented.
well they (Irish Rail) were working on a plan, and 5 years later they're still working on a plan.
If anything, Greystones would/should have been the most powerful place politically in the country during the last government term, with the Taoiseach and a Minister based in the town. Yet, no progress was made on the railway line.
Yes, a general disinterest in public transport projects by the political class is more to blame here than any other organisation.
The "political class" isn't some distinct thing - politicians align their positions with those of the general public.
Blaming "politicians" without recognizing that they are representatives of the public at large is an easy way to divert blame.
And clearly the public hate politicians who attempt to provide "leadership" - look at what happened the Greens. The vilification of E Ryan and the bile he has and continues to be subject to - despite being the first member of cabinet since the formation of the state to prioritize transport spending on PT and active travel over spending on roads - is clear proof of this.
