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Urban NBP on the way ?

clohamon

Minister Ossian Smyth is concerned it seems that the universal Gigabit target will be spoiled by urban black spots. He has asked ComReg to map them.

The national broadband plan is a project to bring fibre broadband to every home in Ireland. It has been immensely successful. There has been a lot of attention and focus recently on the Government's competence and ability to deliver capital projects. This project, which happens to be the largest and worth more than €2.5 billion, is on time and on budget. By the end of 2026, every home, farm and business in rural Ireland will have access to fibre direct to the premises. I want to make sure that happens in urban Ireland as well because a number of black spots where fibre is not available are emerging. People in these areas use some kind of hybrid fibre with speeds of less than 100 Mbps but they need the same 1 Gbps level of connection that will be available in rural Ireland. I have asked my Department to focus on urban black spots. I have worked with the communications regulator, ComReg, which will shortly be producing a map showing where those areas are. It is a much smaller project than was required to connect up rural Ireland. If we can deliver fibre broadband to every home in the Black Valley in Kerry, we can certainly do it in Glenageary and Dundrum. That will be a focus for next year.

The next questions are who's going to do the upgrade(s), what will it cost, who's going to pay for it if not the industry, and when will it be finished.

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heavydawson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058371819/urban-nbp-on-the-way

I think we all know who's going to pay for it, if the black spots were considered noncommercial up to this point.

Will be interesting if they divide the urban areas up into Deployment Areas within each urban area that are then up for bidding on to obtain the inevitable subsidies the government will offer.

clohamon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122682436#Comment_122682436

You're probably right, but maybe the mapping will encourage SIRO/VM/Eircom to compete a bit harder.

I remember the Minister from 2023 thinking he could do it with regulation alone.

I have been examining policy options for completing urban black spots. I am looking at the copper switch off plans ComReg has been examining and at the universal service obligation for broadband which I brought in in the communication regulations Bill recently. We will have to determine the regulatory mechanism we use to oblige broadband providers to provide their service to everybody so they do not leave cul-de-sacs uncompleted in urban areas.

A USO with additional state funding perhaps or a consumer levy on those who already have Gigabit. (perish the thought)

Either way, it looks like Eircom's foot dragging is going to be rewarded with some kind of subsidy.

heavydawson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122683124#Comment_122683124

Funny enough that you mention the copper switch off. BT made a nice chunk of change from the copper they were able to reclaim. Perhaps mandating some use of Irish copper switch off to fund those fibre black-spots would be a good idea?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/sep/29/bt-recycling-deal-surplus-copper-cables

clohamon

Oireachtas news

Minister Smyth is meeting the Communications and Transport Committee

16 Oct 2024, 15:15, CR2, LH 2000 [Select]
2024 Supplementary Estimates for Public Services - Vote 29 (Environment, Climate and Communications)
Ossian Smyth, Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and at the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications

It's supposed to be about estimates but mostly it isn't. Perhaps a committee member would ask him about his plans for urban black-spots.

Here's who should be showing up.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/committees/33/transport-and-communications/membership/?tab=select

Watch here.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/oireachtas-tv/cr2-live/

clohamon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122714114#Comment_122714114

Meeting video here. from 21:40

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/oireachtas-tv/video-archive/committees/9851

150k urban homes in black-spots
ComReg mapping of black-spots to be made public.
Duct-ownership and access issues to be addressed by EU Gigabit Infrastructure Act
Department working on pilot projects
Rural NBP to be finished slightly ahead of schedule - end 2026 for 564k premises.

…..says Minister.

clohamon

Minister Smyth kind of answers Deputy Martin Kenny's PQ of two weeks ago.

126. Deputy Martin Kenny asked the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications the work that has been undertaken by his Department and the agencies under his remit to address the issue of fibre broadband connectivity blackspots in commercial areas; if his Department has quantified the number of premises impacted by this issue; if not, when this will take place; if he envisages that State aid or a public subsidy is required to address these blackspots and by extension a public tendering process for this work; the measures his Department is considering to ensure that the Government’s own commitment of gigabit connectivity for all will be achieved by 2028; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [40856/24]

The National Broadband Plan (NBP) is the government's initiative to deliver high speed broadband services to all premises in Ireland. The NBP will be delivered through investment by commercial enterprises coupled with intervention by the State in those parts of the country where private companies have no plans to invest.
The Department is aware of some evidence emerging, based on conversations with ComReg and commercial operators, that a portion of premises that do not form part of the intervention area may prove not to be commercially viable in terms of being connected to a gigabit network by 2028. The Department are currently investigating reasons for why such instances may arise with a view to identifying solutions. However, it is important to note that significant commercial roll-out programmes by Eir, SIRO and VMI are on-going, and the scale of this potential problem can only be established upon completion of those commercial roll-out programmes.
If a portion of premises are identified not to be commercially viable in terms of delivering connectivity to a gigabit network by 2028, the Department will consider a range of options that can address the problem. A decision as to what the right solution/solutions are appropriate will be informed by the nature and scale of the problems identified. State aid intervention is one of the options that may be considered at this juncture and if pursued may require a public tendering process depending on the intervention model chosen under EU state aid guidelines.
While commercial roll-outs are ongoing, the Department will continue to investigate this issue with relevant stakeholders such as ComReg and commercial operators and would note that it is considering options around potential pilot schemes aimed at informing potential future solutions in order to ensure that the 2028 gigabit connectivity commitments are achieved.

It's not quite clear from above whether the Department can make an early call about the at-risk premises or whether they will wait until 2028 to decide. Not a great situation if you're caught in one of these areas.

clohamon

Urban Black Spot mapping news.

Following an FOI request, ComReg supplied some information.

9th September: email from ComReg to DECC

10th October: email from DECC to ComReg

16th October: Minister Smyth appears before Oireachtas Committee.

From the Government's point of view, however we have to connect everybody in the country and provide them with gigabit Internet. In the rural area we have a contract to make sure there is 100% coverage but in the urban area we need to find a solution for blackspots. I have worked on that with ComReg, which is producing mapping data that I hope to show to the public shortly, showing which areas do not have any particular fibre provider.

25th November - 20th December: ComReg FOI decision maker asks ComReg Wholesale division about the map

clohamon

For the record, the Program for Government mentions black spots. [emphasis added below]. It looks like 5g wireless is in the frame as a solution.

Delivering Broadband
The Government is committed to the roll-out of high speed broadband under the National Broadband Plan. The increase in Remote Working following the pandemic has been hugely positive for rural Ireland enabling people to live and work in their own community. We recognise the immense opportunities that connectivity can generate for work, education, health, and rural development. This Government will:
• Complete installing high-speed fibre broadband to 1.1 million people, including homes, farms, and businesses nationwide, by 2026.
• Tackle broadband blackspots that are not included in the National Broadband Plan Intervention Area currently and which will unlikely be served by commercial operators.
• Maintain support to the Mobile Phone and Broadband Taskforce in removing mobile phone and internet black spots, especially along roads and rail networks. We will examine the role of 5G in helping to overcome these blackspots.
• Increase the number of remote working hubs and ensure dedicated spaces to support local entrepreneurs and start- ups as well as a potential landing space to be used by workers in FDI companies.
• Support Learning and Career Development through Connected Hubs
• Work to provide all schools with high- speed internet broadband, so as to prepare students for a digital future with seamless access to technology resources and adaptive learning methods.

The Cush

Timmy is back in the Dáil and 5G is back on the agenda.

scottyboi_2016

Got connected to eir FTTH yesterday. My timeline:

July 2024: Ducting started to appear on the poles in my area.
October 2024: DP installed on pole beside my house. Asked lads doing this work, they said typically 2 months from now FTTH should be available to order.
Early November: Messaged Openeir on Twitter about the timelines. To my surprised they told me early 2025
Jan 10th, 2025: eir.ie showing FTTH available (not yet showing on openeir checker). Order placed same day.
Jan 11th: showing available on openeir checker.
Jan 21st: installed 😁

clohamon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123062065#Comment_123062065

So, it's Patrick O'Donovan as Minister, but Communications is an engineering department, now thrown in with Culture Media and Sport ……..again.

clohamon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122980194#Comment_122980194

ComReg confirms that it passed on the blackspot data (<100Mb/s) to the Minister at the end of November 2024. ComReg also acknowledges it is required to publish the black spot areas once/if the Minister has designated them as such.

Insofar as the design of public broadband interventions are concerned, Regulation 100(7) provides that the Minister may, having consulted with ComReg, designate an area with clear territorial boundaries where, on the basis of the information gathered by ComReg and any forecast, it is determined that, for the duration of the relevant forecast period*, no undertaking or public authority has deployed or is planning to deploy a very-high-capacity network or significantly upgrade or extend its network to a performance of at least 100 Mbps download speeds. ComReg is required to publish the designated areas.

Regulation 100(11) of the ECC Regulations requires ComReg to supply the results of the Geographical Survey (and any declaration referred to in Regulation 100(8)) to the Minister, subject to the Minister ensuring the same level of confidentiality and protection of business secrets as required of ComReg.

The Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications (‘DECC’) has confirmed to ComReg that it will ensure the Geographic Survey data provided to it will be treated in a confidential manner.

ComReg has corresponded with relevant Electronic Communications Undertakings to inform them that it intended to provide DECC with the results of the Geographic Survey, with ComReg subsequently doing so, via its secure file transfer platform at the end of November 2024.

Owing to reasons of confidentiality and commercial sensitivity ComReg does not make available or make public the underlying data of individual Electronic Communication Undertakings’ that is gathered for the purpose of the Geographic Survey (and the related activities).

* A "forecast period" is every three years starting 21 December 2023.

clohamon

Looks like the new Minister isn't going to show the public where the urban black spots are.

Perish the thought a house might drop in value if potential purchasers could know there's no prospect of decent broadband and no plan for a state intervention.

96. Deputy Robert Troy asked the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications in view of his predecessor having received relevant data from ComReg in November 2024, whether he has now designated areas where very high capacity (communications) networks are unlikely to emerge, and his plans for publication of those areas; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [5083/25]

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2025-02-12/96/speech/519/

Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications
The new Programme for Government states that the Government will tackle broadband blackspots that are not included in the National Broadband Plan and which are unlikely to be served by commercial operators.
To further this aim, my Department has been working with the communications regulator ComReg, under Regulation 100 of the European Union (Electronic Communications Code) 2022, to receive quarterly operator data on the roll out of very high-capacity networks (VHCNs) across the country.
This data is being used by the Department to monitor and track the progress of operators as they continue their network deployments.
Officials have commenced their analysis of the data, and their review is still in the early stages. Their analysis shall inform the Department’s thinking and will assist with the development of policy recommendations.
It is worth noting that all of the broadband network operators building VHCNs are actively rolling out these networks at present. It is too early to make findings as to where VHCN networks are unlikely to emerge, and as such no designation has been made.

clohamon

Thanks to @The Cush for digging up a relevant Irish Times article (2025-02-28) over on the NBP implementation thread.

The source "note marked confidential" seems to be quite old, and the statement from the Department contains classic distancing language - see emphasis below.

Separately officials told the Minister in a note marked confidential about what was described as “gigabit urban black spots”.
“There is evidence emerging that certain premises not currently covered by the national broadband plan may prove to be uneconomic for commercial operators to provide a gigabit service to,” it said. “One of the issues that is proving problematic is where there are no existing ducts in urban areas to facilitate connection to premises. The Department of Environment, Climate and Communications is planning to launch a pilot scheme in 2025 to establish if this voucher-based solution could be rolled out to address this problem, known as ‘direct buried leads’, more widely.”
In its statement the new Department of Arts, Culture and Communications said it was currently carrying out a detailed analysis of a range of scenarios where it may be uneconomic or where there were barriers identified inhibiting commercial operators from provide gigabit broadband services to certain premises that are not part of the national broadband plan.
“Once this exercise has been completed, the department will examine the optimal solutions to addressing such potential gigabit black spots,” it said.
“As part of that process, the department will consider whether it would be beneficial to conduct a pilot scheme to assist in making a more informed decision around the various options. It is also important to note that the mobile phone and broadband taskforce is designed to address barriers to the deployment of telecom infrastructure and will focus on actions to address black spots in any case.”[emphasis added]

The idea of a voucher solution was last tried with the Group and County Broadband Scheme in 2004. That scheme was abandoned c.2005-2006. The advantage is that it doesn't require State Aid approval and it's fairly cheap and flexible. The disadvantage, I suspect, is that it's very hard to do the civil work with any coherence or efficiency. Trying to aggregate voucher holders to provide the necessary subsidy to one provider, without breaking State Aid rules, would be tricky.

clohamon

More of the Department's 'wait and see' strategy. (Dáil answer 2025-03-27)

My Department is aware of some evidence emerging, based on conversations with ComReg and commercial operators, that a portion of premises that do not form part of the intervention area may prove not to be commercially viable in terms of being connected to a gigabit network by 2028. The Department is investigating reasons for why such instances may arise with a view to identifying solutions. However, it is important to note that significant commercial rollout programmes by several operators are ongoing, and the scale of this potential problem can only be established upon completion of those commercial rollout programmes. My Department will continue to investigate this issue with relevant stakeholders such as ComReg and commercial operators and consider all options to inform potential future solutions.

The Cush

Came across reply from the Minister back in April. It looks like the new, reconstituted Mobile Phone and Broadband Taskforce will be tasked with addressing mobile phone and internet black spots. And the return of 5G as a possible solution.

It doesn't look good for these blackspot urban areas, caught between the commercial rollout and state-aid rules. Let's see what solutions the Dept suggests.

Telecommunications Infrastructure – Thursday, 10 Apr 2025 – Parliamentary Questions (34th Dáil) – Houses of the Oireachtas

Thursday, 10 April 2025
66. Deputy Brendan Smith asked the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications the proposals he has to progress the commitment in the Programme for Government to maintain support to the mobile phone and broadband taskforce in removing mobile phone and internet black spots; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications: …
The Programme for Government 2025 includes a commitment to “Maintain support to the Mobile Phone and Broadband Taskforce in removing mobile phone and internet black spots, especially along roads and rail networks.” with the intention to “… examine the role of 5G in helping to overcome these blackspots.”
…
My Department is currently carrying out a detailed analysis of a range of scenarios where it may be uneconomic for commercial operators to cover premises not part of the NBP with a Gigabit Capable Network (GCN) by 2028. Once this has been done my Department will examine the optimal policy solution/s, including from a cost and legal perspective, to addressing such potential Gigabit Blackspots (GBS).
However, it is also important to note that a number of commercial operators are planning to continue rolling out fibre networks into 2026 and under European State Aid rules any intervention by the State must not be seen to crowd out private investment.
The current iteration of the Mobile Phone and Broadband Taskforce runs from April 2022 to April 2025. The Taskforce will be reconstituted and will be co-chaired by Minister O’Donovan in his role as Minister for Communications and Minister Calleary as Minister for Rural and Community Development (DRCD). Both Departments will work together with the key stakeholders to identify key priority areas of focus to continue to overcome barriers for the provision of fixed and mobile telecommunications services in the State, and maintain support in removing mobile phone and internet black spots, especially along roads and rail networks. The Taskforce will also look to examine the role of 5G in helping to overcome these blackspots.

clohamon

If they're waiting for Eircom to finish its FTTP program it might be a while.

The Cush

Some recent mention of this

Tuesday, 17 June 2025
Minister for Culture, Communications and Sport: …
The Department is working with the commercial operators to identify areas where gigabit-capable broadband infrastructure is either unavailable or insufficient with a view to developing remedies so that all premises can avail of these services.

Tuesday, 24 June 2025
Minister for Culture, Communications and Sport: …
The Department is aware of some evidence emerging, based on conversations with ComReg and commercial operators, that a portion of premises that do not form part of the intervention area may prove not to be commercially viable in terms of being connected to a gigabit network by 2028. The Department are currently investigating reasons for why such instances may arise with a view to identifying solutions.

clohamon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123586157#Comment_123586157

…..but they do look very similar to previous Soviet style answers.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2024-05-14/131/#spk_378 2024-05-13

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2024-10-15/142/speech/485/ 2024-10-15

While commercial rollouts are ongoing, the Department will continue to investigate this issue with relevant stakeholders such as ComReg and commercial operators and would note that it is considering options around potential pilot schemes aimed at informing potential future solutions in order the 2028 gigabit connectivity commitments are achieved.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2024-10-10/126/#spk_441 2024-10-10

The Department is aware of some evidence emerging, based on conversations with ComReg and commercial operators, that a portion of premises that do not form part of the intervention area may prove not to be commercially viable in terms of being connected to a gigabit network by 2028. The Department are currently investigating reasons for why such instances may arise with a view to identifying solutions.

They have been aware of this problem since 2020, and have been getting 'broadband reach' data every quarter from, at latest, Q3 2024 - from ComReg.

I'm not sure what the problem is; spending money, State Aid rules, threats from interested parties, or something else.

The Cush

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123587156#Comment_123587156

Civil servant stock answers of course but it indicates they are still working on this in the background.

State Aid rules take priority and until all commercial providers release these areas little can be done.

It'll be interesting to see what emerges from the Dept.

clohamon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123587199#Comment_123587199

AFAIK the State Aid rules only provide for protection in 'excluded areas' until the intervention itself is completed in the intervention area. And that only applies to the 30Mb/s scheme. A VHCN (FTTP) scheme would be a different scheme.

Separately the Minister is saying that Eircom expects to complete in 2026, which is untrue. Even Eircom is now saying it'll be 2027. Others think it might well be 2028 and Eircom issued an ominous financial statement recently.

The Cush

Logic would say these areas should be moved into a revised NBP instead of devising a whole new plan for a very scattered intervention.

clohamon

TJ Malone, CEO of NBI politely solicits for fibre blackspot business.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/oireachtas-tv/video-archive/committees/10774 . Starts at 00:58:00

I know the department are putting a lot of work into the whole area at the moment. We would like to be part of that. We’ve built a team, we’ve built a team that can put predictability into this project and it’s coming near an end so we’d like to……… before we start to wind down we’d like to keep winding up.

clohamon

Latest from Minister.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2025-11-04/943/speech/1071/

The Department is conducting a detailed analysis of scenarios where it may be uneconomic for commercial operators to deliver a Gigabit Capable Network to premises outside the NBP Intervention Area; once this analysis is complete the Department will examine optimal policy responses, including cost and legal considerations, to address any identified Gigabit Blackspots. The final scale and location of any such gaps cannot be fully quantified until currently planned commercial roll-out programmes through 2026 are complete.

That final sentence needs some unpicking. Hard to know if EOY 2026 is a meaningful date.

clohamon

Ships in the night.

Committee Chair asks about Ossian Smyth's 1Gb/s black spots map. DCCS responds about 30Mb/s black spots.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/joint_committee_on_arts_media_communications_culture_and_sport/2025-11-12/speech/107/

An Cathaoirleach: There is a question I should have asked earlier. I think it relates to the former Minister of State, Ossian Smyth, who, in fairness, was proactive in this whole space and quite knowledgeable. I am working from memory here. Was there a commitment in relation to doing full map coverage of blackspots across the country? Where is that at?
:
:

Mr. Patrick Neary: ….A blackspot is defined as a location that has less than 30 Mb service available. If we look at the market today, there are some 150,000 premises that have less than 30 Mb broadband service available. We are monitoring the deployment of the operators to address those areas. The vast majority of those are in the intervention area that is covered by NBI. It is planning to complete its roll-out by the end of next year. That will remove about 140,000 of those, so we would be down to between 10,000 and 15,000 that are dependent on commercial operators to deploy.

….later

An Cathaoirleach: Will a blackspot map ever be published?
Mr. Patrick Neary: No, we are not publishing a blackspot map.

jos22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124001310#Comment_124001310

wander how many thousands are in blackspots with speeds of just over 30mbs.(I know that the minister is not counting them as being blackspots, even though they never get fiber without a nbi style intervention) countless more in areas that are listed as having Fiber available but eir or sky etc determined it not cost effective for them to connect that particular house/ neighbor said no to cable running overhead their garden.

Would not be surprised if that number is large enough.

clohamon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124005249#Comment_124005249

Yes. From meeting on 5th November NBI seem to think it's 100-150K.

There are areas, which we call the black spots. When this contract was originally envisaged by the Department, high-speed broadband at that stage was considered to be anything that was 30 Mbps or above. Some eight or ten years later from when the project was envisaged, 30 Mbps probably does not really cut the mustard when it comes to high-speed broadband. The gigabit society that we have built also goes into rural areas but there is a small section of we think somewhere between 100,000 to 150,000 homes that is not getting speeds above 30 Mbps.

Not clear whether the Department are trying to portray this twilight group as just a simple extension of the NBP.

clohamon

Minister O'Donovan sees the issue - urban black spots - as caused by cable companies of old. It's a 'next generation' problem; and will cost 'an awful lot of money'.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2025-11-20/9/speech/43/

Deputy Grace Boland: The roll-out of national broadband is delivering high-speed fibre to rural and urban communities. It is a success and progress has been made, yet we know that there is partial coverage in some towns and villages. For example, my own hometown of Skerries has partial coverage of fibre broadband and not access to the national fibre broadband. The Minister might give us an update on when we can expect full roll-out of the national broadband plan in all towns and villages.
:
:

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan: There is a Dublin-specific issue we have to address. Fadó fadó when cable television came into people's houses - we did not have that luxury in the country, I do not know whether An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach did and Deputy Ó Snodaigh probably did - they had to break footpaths when they brought in cables and in many cases, left no ducting so there is a significant problem involving ducting in a lot of urban areas, particularly in Dublin, that we will have to address with local authorities. It will cost an awful lot of money. I know it is a particularly big issue in suburban Dublin and, in many cases, prevents the delivery of high-speed broadband. It is probably part of the next generation of problems we will have to fix in suburban areas, particularly in Dublin.

clohamon

Minister O'Donovan again. Not clear if he's now withdrawing from any commitment to address this issue

Commercial operators’ fibre rollouts are progressing at pace, open eir have already passed over 1.4 million homes. SIRO has recently reached a milestone of having passed over 700,000 premises for full fibre. Virgin Media plan to bring gigabit broadband upgrades to 1 million premises, to date it has passed 550,000 premises with full fibre. The activities of commercial operators delivering high-speed broadband within BLUE areas are not planned or funded by the State and the Department has no statutory authority to intervene in that regard.

jos22

I see one of the Siro people did Q and A things on Reddit

and mentioned this in one of his responses

there's a bunch of homes that won't get NBI and may not get fibre either as things stand because they're so expensive to get to. It's a problem. Hopefully the government and industry come up with a solution to reach these.

this Q/A was from December 2025