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Old thread here......
https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2057962937/mayo-gaa-discussion-part-4#latest
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Yes and no. Galway were missing players but by getting over Mayo that day, by any means, meant that they gained big confidence going into the group stages. The celebrations on the sideline were huge at the final whistle - Joyce was under massive pressure and had been knocked out of the championship at home to Mayo the year before. And what transpired for the rest of the championship was no one standout team, meaning anyone of a number of teams could have won it - I would include Mayo in that. Sure, Armagh won it! Honestly, fair play to to them but one of the least talented winning teams I can remember.
Fair few liberties taken in all that. Leaving the point about the injuries aside, the Galway game was a draw when Gough made his 'mistake'. He also gave Mayo 90 seconds to level it up. Who knows who would've won extra time if it went there but the momentum was one way
In Galway's high point later on that summer, beating Dublin, their best 4 players were McDaid, Maher, Mulkerrin and Walsh. None of those (plus Tierney) started that Mayo game. Half the Galway team had barely kicked a ball all spring and they had just been nearly beaten by Sligo two weeks previous. I think it's fair to assume that wasn't the best version of themselves
The overall insinuation that it was fine margins that stopped Mayo potentially making a final is a bit of a strange one given a) the winner of that game arguably went into a tougher group and b) Mayo's last two QF performances have seen them absolutely hammered.
With 30 highly trained athletes occupying the same area of ground once occupied by much less fitter, less athletic players the game was only going one way. The GAA sat on this as long as they could but ultimately realised that game attendances would eventually collapse. Players have already commentated that the new game is more enjoyable to play in. The FRC committee carried out their work very diligently and consulted a large group of players, managers and supporters. Your comment that players in the FF line will only be supplying ball back to a half forward line for 2 points would only make sense if goals were abolished. Full forward line players will have more room to operate if other players gravitate to and congest the D area. That's the whole point of the 2 point change. The rugby analogy is also flawed as you can have players ahead of the ball in GAA that long balls can be kicked into unlike the offside rule in rugby.
I dont mean to be facetious but i would have given it however long it takes because that is how field sports work. It would absolutely 100% have evolved. Changing how scores are counted and restricting movement of players between areas of the pitch robs it of its chance to evolve, in my opinion.
Changes such as the pick and go when fouled etc are fine by me. They make the game faster. But changing how scores are counted and making scores from some areas worth more than in other areas whilst restricting movement of players creates an artificial construct. Wait until the 2 point line contains 4 defenders on it at all times. Wait until the 2 defending midfielders drop back there also with the half forward occupying the area in front of it. Wait until the role of inside forwards is to simply funnel the ball back out outside the 2 point line where their team can do a rugby-style set play to have the ball in the hands of Paul Conroy bursting onto the ball 50 yards out. The first few weeks of the league so far is teams playing the new rules but i expect things to become a lot more negative by championship time - you simply cannot be conceding 2 pointers to stay in games. The game will end up unrecognisable and, in my opinion, gimmicky.
After Kerry. During the break weekend. They'd jump in any week if there was a clear issue, but they're hoping to make the main changes (I'd imagine 12v11 & 3/3 requirements while under black/red card to be looked at) between round 5 and before round 6 to give sides a chance to try them out in the last 2 league games before Championship. (Things can technically change during Championship too, but they'd only do it if a clear problem started emerging - you'd expect the changes after Kerry to be the last for the year if things go anywhere close to plan. Hopefully Motion 7 passes at the upcoming congress too so we're not forced into this dramatic upheaval every 5 years and can instead do changes in a more measured fashion going forward).
Is it after the Armagh game there's a review of the rules by Croke park or is it the Kerry game?
The last page or two show that for all the messing and sh1te talk on this thread there can still be some good insightful posting and arguments.
I'm usually optimistic when it comes to Mayo.I feel people have been way to hard on management the last few years going back to Horans second stint.Peoole really need to get over losing the 21 final.We were outfoxed on the day and had only played one decent half of football all championship. Galway have lost 2 finals since (including last year when they completely bottled it) and are using it as motivation for this year.There's a good chance they'll lift Sam this year.
Horan in 22 was destroyed with injuries, worse than Galway last year yet we only lost to Galway by a point in Connacht.
McStay had us playing lovely football when he came in and won the league.A few weeks later we bet Kerry down in Killarney and were being (rightly) talked about as All Ireland contenders after all that.
Last year we had Galway bet only for the ref to have a meltdown and hand them the game (he has since admitted this so fair play to him on that) Galway go on to All Ireland final......fine margins.
My point being in those years Mayo could take on anyone and win,win most of the time in fact.
Now it's different. I've lost faith in management. That started with the players that didn't commit this year,that's a red flag.Then you have the terrible constipated football we are playing.I understand we haven't got our full compliment of players and we're trying to blood a few players (who are generally doing well) but it won't win anything.
Also we have made the least use of the new rules,that's a damning indictment. McStays weird and repeated comments that the rules may not be adopted come the summer ....totally bizarre, they may be tweaked but there are here to stay.
We will improve when we get a few lads back,we might win Connacht but we won't do much else.People might say we don't have the players,I think we have the players to be better than we are now.
The comparisons with Donegal are apt.Man for man compare the 2 squads and they are similar but Donegal would absolutely mangle this Mayo team come championship. That's down to belief, style and management.
I agree with everything you say, and like yourself I`m very unsure on the 3 up rule and the 2 pointer. It has improved the game at inter county level imo, but I cannot see how it will work at club level as there is no way there will be the numbers of officials available to patrol either,
The Donegal supporters thought the football they were going to get with Rochford on board was the mix of running and kicking football that Corofin played and Mayo played in 2016 and 2017. They were already running the ball under Bonner but were just running into blanket defences and being striped of the ball. They thought that with Rochford and Murphy at full forward balls would go in early and players would be coached and encouraged to shoot from distance to score and draw out defenders leaving room for runners. That was not what they got though. Murphy spent most of his time in midfield and centre back with those that actually had the ability to shoot and score from distance out of favour.
Was that down to Bonner as manager rather than Rochford, perhaps, but watching Mayo last year, and especially in the league so far this year, for me at least, it is very reminiscent of Donegal during the years he was there. It`s not a style of football that will get you anywhere under these new rules, and tbh the Mayo v Tyrone game at the weekend was dire with both teams looking clueless. The Tyrone keeper Morgan was joint top scorer with 3 points, 2 from play, and came close to scoring a goal as well. For such a low scoring game, almost half way through the league under these new rules, that statistic alone is crazy
How much more time would you have given it though? 6000 people at last week's home game for Mayo against Tyrone illustrates how fans are fed up with things. And Mayo and Tyrone are the 2 teams in division 1 who have been accused of not adapting to the new rules. I'm still not sure about the 3v3 in terms of practicality but I'd find it hard to argue against the other rules. You're worried about the game changing but long range scoring and winning aerial contests should be rewarded under any gaelic football rules. The GAA is slow to change but Croke Park finally realised a significant change was needed.
I understand the argument but I think it is too simplistic. Look at the football Mayo played against Kerry in Killarney and Dublin in Roscommon with Rochford as coach. The issue here is that pre the rule changes, if a team set up defensively against you ala Derry/Galway in recent years there's not much you can do other than mirror them. Donegal still set up very defensively when needed, like against Armagh in the Ulster final. With the new rules, it's still very early to say though I admit Mayo look a bit behind at this stage.
I think teams under Rochford, when they have had a chance to play football, have been very good - Corofin the year they won the AI - total football in my opinion, Mayo in 2016 v Dublin in the drawn and replayed game, Mayo 2017 v Ross, Kerry, and Dublin in the AI series. Theses teams had a lovely mix of kicking and running football.
I'm conflicted on this - I was very much in your camp up until the rule changes and I am still confident that the game would have evolved out of its most recent phase and also that the game was totally over demonized.
However, I love that Jim Gavin has taken this chance to make changes that are objectively a huge improvement in the game and should have been done ages ago.
I'm still uncertain about the 3-up rule and the 2-pointer. But let's see.
The change of back pass was a rule change similar to the midfield mark rule change in football. I am talking about fundemental material changes which not only completely change the flow of a gaelic football match but which change the manner in which scores are counted in the game. All to battle a tactical trend which, while tiresome, was temporary.
It genuinely just needed time. The game would not stand still. Jonathan Wilson wrote an article over the weekend in the Guardian talking about how the days of tiki taka are potentially over and teams will likely start going long again. The evolutionary cycle continues. The GAA has robbed itself of that. I agree soccer is more advanced and has far more influences - GAA is inbred by comparison - but they are field sports and the overarching principles of a field sport should apply.
Mc Guinness is probably more revered in Donegal now than he was during his first term. First term he took over a team that was a shambles when nobody else would touch the job with a County Board which was also a shambles doing everthing in their power not to give it to him. When he left in 2014 it was with the reputation of being one of the most astute managers in the game. Risking it all to come back 10 years later to a team that was again becoming a shambles with a County Board that was that was even more so than the 2011 one, and what he achieved in 2024 has him even more revered by Donegal fans that before.
Donegal fans thought Mayo were nuts to get rid of Rochfort and were delighted to see him joining Donegal under DEclan Bonner, especially after years of the negativity of Rory Gallagher`s management. Bonner, although being well regarded in the county as a great servant to Donegal, would not have been regarded as the most tactically astute of managers and Rochfort was looked on as being a great addition in that regards. Rumbling started pretty early on when Karl Lacey the counties most decorated player with 4 All Star`s and a player of the year who as a defender liked to play on the front foot was sidelined in favour of Rochfort. In fairness to Bonner he had been fielding teams that, unlike Gallagher, were attempting to win games rather than not lose them. With Rochfort on board it was back to the Gallagher play book. Keep possesion, take no risks and players that could shoot from distance, such as Langan and Thompson, out of favour with Michael Murphy being used as a work horse to plug gaps all over the field where even when he moved into the forward line balls would not be played in because it was viewed as being to risky.
Back then it was a style of play that would not see you being beaten by a high margin, but even then was not going to win you much and had players more concerned with not losing than actually going out to beat the oppostion. Maybe I`m being over harsh on Rochfort, but to me at least, Mayo are now playing very much in the style of Donegal when Rochfort was involved. It didn`t work back then and has even less chance of doing so under the new rules.
In fairness, Joyce was in what, his fourth year last year with Galway, when they got hammered by Mayo and Derry and drew with Roscommon in their first 4 games of the league. But then went on to have a very strong year. And no one in Galway was saying, 'it's all good - we are playing to a great style and deepening our panel'. Time and time again the league proves to be an irrelevance come championship; see Derry last year and Mayo the year before. Basically, stay up and deepen your panel.
Also, I don't think McStay was in a position to rebuild the team that much, there just wasn't enough talent coming thru the last 3 years. However, the next manager certainly will be.
Your post reads like this is McStays first year, its his 3rd and more than likely final year!
In fairness, it's hard to make concrete conclusions after 3 games. I think McGuinness is a more inspirational figure than McStay - I'm fairly sure he is revered in Donegal. His ability to get Murphy back out of retirement versus McStay's inability to convince Keegan, Mullin, and Cillian to part of the Mayo project is telling.
However, I think Rochford has become under-rated as a coach. Rochford has a great ability to be brave and get his tactics spot on for a particular game and I think that is Mayo's best hope right now. Last year they did everything right except get over the bloody line (v. Galway, Dublin, and Derry) and the year before in Killarney they were excellent (though they made an absolute mess of things v Cork).
With everyone fit I would give Mayo a 50/50 chance against Donegal or Galway and trust Rochford to have a game plan to give them the best chance. A motivated team like this will be hard bet.
Reape
Morahan/Callinan/McHugh McBrien Hession
McLaughlin Eoin O'D Durcan
Ruane Carney
Flynn Boland Conroy
O'Donoghue O'Shea Towey
With a strong bench including; Callinan/Morahan/McHugh, Coyne, Coen, Diarmuid, Touhy, Darren McHale, Neary, Reid, Irwin, Loftus, F. McLaughlin (I think Finbarr will make the bench if he stays fit).
The more and more I see, the more and more I am concerned about the impact of Rochfords coaching style. He seemed to lose his way post his original tenure, or maybe his coaches reigned in some of his instincts.
If you look at Donegal when he was coaching them, their style was very much like we are now. Zombie football. Wedded to a structure that did not work and seemingly unwilling to change. We had a far stronger panel with better young talent coming through most would have said. Yet today Donegal are one of the best teams in the country with virtually the same squad. McGuinness is not a magician, just a coach who knows how to put a team together and instil a common purpose. Where are the coaches in Mayo with that ability? We seem to marginalise coaches who look capable of putting a team together rather than develop them.
We are playing the exact same way now as we did last year and with the rules changes this makes no sense. It got us no where last year and with the new rules it will get us the same outcome if not worse. There are positives with newer guys getting game time but I think this was forced to a degree on McStay with guys departing.
We appear to have nearly two types of supporters on this forum, guys who think everything is "ok" and live in hope and other guys who are overly critical with a lense of what it takes to win an all ireland and maybe a happy medium is required. However, I think everyone is looking for early signs of improvement on the pitch and on the line. It is early days in fairness and they will get better on the pitch as the ground dries up and some seasoned players come back. I cannot say the same for the line based on their tenure todate and it would be hard to justify management having this plan to breed a new cohort of players over the league for championship. Hindsight is great but he should have done that in year 1.
I'm all for panel rotation & prioritising minutes for new lads ahead of points. I said last year I was fine with relegation, even more so this year with some of the young lads about to push through and the benefits they'd get from a year in Div 2 to wet their feet. All about building for Championship for me. That said, there are ways you're ok losing games in order to be building & ways folks will be left pretty disillusioned even winning them. Go out the last day and give Cian at least a good 10 minutes in the 2nd half with the wind. Try some different strategies to create and exploit attacking spaces (funny to see how much of the innovative stuff, other than Galway where Morris/Graham are trying some clever stuff or Donegal doing a nice job of punching through without using a 12th man while remaining solid at the back, is coming from outside D1 - Roscommon, Meath, Offaly or Wicklow all trying real interesting stuff at the weekend, and much of it working). See if we can add to our transition options ("slow, through hands and sometimes backwards" doesn't feel like it'll work 100% of the time). Lose by 4-6 points trying those, while having a decent work rate, I'd be a happy camper. Stumbling over the line against a side playing slightly worse than we did, with the same slow transition we've leaned on too long, utterly struggling to try & get two of our best shooters (Paul & Cian) near a shot chance (directly related to the transition choices), with more unforced slips with basics of the new rules (we seemed to forget we needed to go back to 3 up after spending the 10 mins of the Black Card with just 2). Folks won't tend to be celebrating that. It's fine. Points will help. A chance for the lads (on grass or the line) to relieve the mounting pressure a little. Enough positives we can pull from it to move forward. Just hard to write it off as "just the league" when so many of the concerns have been ongoing for years now. And all the more fatal if not addressed under these new rules, which reward so many of the things we've been short on. A touch of unfair criticism around. A lot of very valid criticism (sometimes constructive), too.
I don't think the management are going for the points. I'm hoping that they are concentrating on getting more players game time and to be fair they are doing that. Its great to see Eoin OD back, I always saw him as a natural successor to Chris Barrett. There is many other players getting really valuable game time also. Granted its very hard to watch, but like others have said lets judge them on the Championship. Am I being too lenient to think that this is all part of the bigger plan, use the league to get players game time and have a much broader stronger panel come championship?
A lot of comments have being about the new rules we didn't have the new rules last yr an struggled so I don't see why it should be any different this yr,we have the same management and backroom team but now we have whole load of new rules to get to grip with,what we dont have is the players it makes no dfference how we to play,we couldn't get the most out of them last yr ii don't see it being any different this yt
I’m going to generous here. I think that management would have been targeting the points yesterday and that was more important than the performance.
The fact that we have had quite a few young players getting minutes out of necessity is a bonus. I’m not sure what Eoin ODonaghue did to blot his copybook with successive management teams but his display yesterday shows what a lot of us thought about him ability-wise. Great bit of physicality there too.
Neary and Irwin are looking comfortable at this level but we’ve seen this before so it’s just a hope at this stage that they can offer real options come championship. Towey didn’t have his best outing but he has the ability so hopefully we stick with him.
Conor Reid is coming on nicely under the radar and his club mate Cian MacHale will benefit from his runouts as well. Looks like he might solve our left footed free kicks if he can progress. Flynn looked very good on his return and Aidan and Carney looked good in the interpros with the new rules as well so we have a few more good options to come. If Paddy can make it back as well he’d be a great man for the 2 pointers.
So that’s putting a positive spin on what I’ve seen so far.
I never said Towey wasn’t a great club player.
Hard to fault that approach too much for the first ~20 minutes while the gale blew (it was a ~5-6 point breeze under these rules for that early period). We just never switched on once the wind died down (a combination of fumbles, poor calls & the black card hurt us a lot in that 2nd quarter), and then struggled to really create (Neary the only one I remember standing up his man and beating him in attack) when we had the bit of breeze behind us in the second half. Slow, pedestrian and safe would probably the words you'd go for on our transition. Not what you're hoping for in a game. Plenty of room (disappointingly a bit too much of it) for improvement on that, though that room has been there since mid '23 now. Physicality better (room for much more), work rate up, more pressing of the arc (more needed - Tyrone's shooting helped a lot there), unlike '24 won a game tight down the finish, a few lads back (Eoin, Jack, Jordan & Aido) and some nice showings for Eoin, Frank & Davitt that'll help build confidence in newer lads. Hard watch, but enough there to pull some positives from if we try.
You seem to have a major issue with Towey. Towey is the best inside forward in the Mayo senior championship for the past few seasons. He is still Mayo's top scorer from play in this year's league despite not scoring yesterday. Ryan, who is supposed to be Mayo's marquee forward, was dropped for yesterday's game. When he came on he received a ball inside the opposition 45', tried to take on his man but lost the ball feebly in contact - something he has done all season and going back to last season too. You better hope they persist with Towey because he has the class to score from anywhere, otherwise Mayo have nothing coming from their inside forwards.
On Frank Irwin, he took his chances well yesterday but he does nothing in the full-forward line - he's a midfield/11 player taking his scores coming from the half forward line. Honestly don't think he is at inter county standard come championship. Aidan is much more effective at 14.
Finally, there is some amount of over reaction to these games from Mayo support. Mayo have a lot of average and new players playing, they're not going to be at a Donegal/Galway level. Plus it's the third league game in February in a season where there are a whole host of new rules for everyone to get their heads around. Let's see what happens come summer.
It was a tough day at the office yesterday. I really wasnt bothered about the result, win loose or draw, what type of performance we put in I was more interested in. That first half though, that was hard to watch from the stand. We had one or 2 spurts where we ran and played attacking football, was great to see that!
So far, it seems like we haven't really adapted to the new rules particularly well and our general gameplan seems to be overly cautious which makes it a hard watch.
On the plus side, a good few fringe players are getting decent minutes which will hopefully stand to us later on and in the coming years.
I'm willing to give the mgmt team the benefit of the doubt for now; with a couple of minor improvements / bit of luck last year, we'd have beaten both Galway & Dublin so I think it's only fair to wait until the summer to judge them.
At least the 2 points gained gives us a chance of survival in D1
Is there any style that suits us though? If Mayo were allowed to pick the rules to suit our squad I don't think it would be the FRC ones. We haven't the size to compete for 50/50 long balls in forward line if the ball was let in long and we have managed only a few 2-pointers so far. I'd prefer to see us play with more abandon and directness but not sure we have the personnell.
