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Generator House Plug - Is It Allowed?

ingalway

Do Irish electrical regulations allow a generator plug, with a transfer switch, to be installed into a house so that electrical items still run during a power outage?

I am on day 15 with no power, heat, water and do not want to be in this position ever again.

I already have some experience of power stations, solar etc from camper van.

If it is possible to install a generator switch with the transfer switch my scenario would be:

EcoFlow Smart Generator outside powering an EcoFlow Delta 3 Pro inside the house that would power the house sockets.

Asking here as the fantastic electrician that used to do jobs for me has gone to Australia so need an expert to guide me before I try to find someone locally if I can go ahead with this.

Thanks

https://uk.ecoflow.com/products/delta-pro-3-portable-power-station

https://uk.ecoflow.com/products/dual-fuel-generator

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SodiumCooled

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123150565#Comment_123150565

The generator is earthed when connected to the consumer unit through the house earth rod. Any connecting with 3 pin plugs should be of course not done though I am referring to a correct setup.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123150675#Comment_123150675

In Irish systems the neutral/earth bond is done where the supply enters the premises so in the meter box. The earth rod connection to the consumer unit is not connected to neutral anywhere on the consumer side. But the bonding must be done and since portable generators are always floating neutral it must be done at the house hence why single pole change over switches are installed to maintain the bonding but switching live which is here the risk is for back feeding.

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123151006#Comment_123151006

But the house earth rod can legitimately be at a very high impedance to earth. I am not sure that it would play much of a role in this context. It quite likely wont generate a sufficient fault current to trip any over current device.

I am not convinced on the logic of leaving a neutral conductor connected to the grid. Why? If an N/E bond is required the generator should come with it, or it should be fitted on the generator side of the changeover switch.
Many generators have 30mA RCBO leakage detection onboard - is it appropriate to have an N/E bond downstream of this?

Slightly Kwackers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123150908#Comment_123150908

I'm fully aware of the risks. No one else uses the property and the cable is locked away.

It's not a perfect setup, but power interruptions are frequent.

I am looking into using a padlock based system with a dedicated interface that can be used as an either/ or lockoff. This would remove any risk unless someone smashes the locking arrangement on the CU incoming switch.

I do have people staying and the broadband, phone, everything including the circulation pump for the solid fuel stove is reliant on electrical power. Hence my reason to make things totally foolproof while not departing too much from what works when needed.

This will prevent inadvertent switching, which is pretty well impossible anyway as a conscious effort is needed to isolate the higher loads prior to pulling the starting rope. The generator is less than a couple of kW.

SodiumCooled

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123151144#Comment_123151144

Portable generators aren’t neutralised as it’s not needed for standalone use e.g. using an extension lead on a site or similar and if connecting to a system such as a home it’s assumed the bonding is done there. Generators are not just made for Ireland also and not all counties use our way of bonding where it can be done on the consumer side - in this case having a bonded generator is an issue as having two bonding points is as bad/worse than no bonding.

Have a google of it in you will find loads of discussion on this from Ireland, UK and Australia who all use the same system. Many electricians say neutrals should not be switched others argue with it. Even the esb wiring block diagram only appears to show the live being broken.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123151284#Comment_123151284

Juat get a change over switch why go locking boxes etc when you could just do it correctly (leaving arguments over switching neutrals aside anything with a change over switch is better than what you are doing).

Slightly Kwackers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123151706#Comment_123151706

My generator "floats". It's tied to ground via the leakage through whatever is connected, I know this from a contactless probe I use to monitor the Volts with to see when the ESB are supplying again.

Frankly as the shed the generator is in is unheated, humid and by the sea, leakage is the norm anyway. I have just spent a few hours getting the tumble dryer running in there by dissing the earth until it warmed up.

I bought a "Megger" to test for spates of trip blowing, but found even with just the bare sockets in the out buildings the reading fluctuated and made it impossible to read in winter. I just had to disconnect everything and return things gradually to service in the end.

A C/O switch is not an easy option, I would need to run a generator specific cable back to the house.

I was hoping and still am really that power fails will be consigned to history.

I lived in the UK and we had constant power 24/7 for decades, with no interruption. Even rural sites would spend most of the year without a break.

Anyway there was a major upgrade to the network in the area, so maybe power cuts will be reduced now.

I fully understand and agree with what you advise up to a point. But I live alone, there is no risk to me or anyone else. No one could enter the property and start operating the CU or shed DB anyway without spending some time on the enterprise, by then the fuel would have run out.

meercat

https://www.waterfordlive.ie/news/national-news/1714353/esb-set-out-safety-warning-of-item-that-can-pose-serious-risks-amid-power-outages.html https://www.waterfordlive.ie/news/national-news/1714353/esb-set-out-safety-warning-of-item-that-can-pose-serious-risks-amid-power-outages.html

there’s a risk to life

Just because you can’t easily run a cable doesn’t justify your reasoning

MakersMark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123151284#Comment_123151284

Just do it the right, legal way.

[Deleted User]

Lads don't use this sort of setup. Yes by all means run some extension leads around your property but don't run the suicide cable.

Slightly Kwackers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123153747#Comment_123153747

I am fully aware of the fact.

The risks to me or anyone else are negligble though, they would be more likely to electrocute themselves on the electrical fittings in the outbuildings, still freely on sale.

One should be impressed by the ESB warning I suppose, but anyone who ever worked on a construction site would wonder what kind of weirdo would try to convince a team that their generator is switched off or parked indoors when raining and they have dry hands to use it?

Don't linesmen ground HV lines anyway when working?

I recall some getting killed in the UK, not because the line worked on was being energised via a direct connection, but simply because it was a long length on the pylon that was floating and in proximity to a live conductor.

Anyway backfeeding out of the house cannot happen unless a third party deiberately made the connections.

Slightly Kwackers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123153754#Comment_123153754

Exactly what laws are being broken?

When working on civils sites, I always, without exception ensured that no current could flow in the cables that I worked on, or anything fed by them. On the one occasion I had to trust a few clowns that walked around their site with me to locate and isolate their nominated feed cable I used a local earthing strap to ensure that nothing would render my circuit live.

The ESB site itself does in fact specifically warn that cables need to be treated as live during power outages, do you not think they would follow their own advice?

I don't think the practice is a good one by any means, but I have no choice as to the quality of supply and considering the expense of the supply, the generator simply shouldn't be needed anyway.

As I do live alone then apart from my means of energisation reducing the risks of any accident to zero, the generator provides my only link to the outside world as the house is isolated from the neighbouring properties.

I worked on many remote sites in the UK and Ireland, power outages were logged in the PLC when the UPS kicked in. Nothing matches the outages I have here.

MakersMark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123154950#Comment_123154950

You are in violation of the National Rules for Electrical Installations, 4th Edition, 2008.

You are intentionally creating a situation that is dangerous (despite your own fallacy that a personal LOTO method will be good enough).

Sadly, you wont even know if you kill someone up the line with your dangerous practise.

Some people just don't listen.

If you so sure what you're doing is safe, write to ESBN with your MPRN number and expalin to them what you're doing.

https://safeelectric.ie/contractors/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/06/Amendment-no.-1.pdf

You are also in violation of Building Regulations:

4.9. Off-Grid and Backup Operation Off-grid operation is defined here as a solar PV (and battery storage) system which is not connected to the electrical distribution system (typically a remote dwelling). Backup operation is defined here as a solar PV (and battery storage) system which is required to provide electricity to the dwelling during periods of grid outage.• Off-grid systems must comply with the requirements of this code of practice but do not need to meet the requirements of Section 4.8, and can achieve the requirements of Section 4.7 as per the backup operation requirements below• Backup operation is permitted so long as the below conditions are met- The backup supply from the PV and battery energy storage system must be on the load side of the ESB meter and cannot feed any other premises.- The requirements of I.S. 10101 must be met, particularly relating to the requirements of‘ standby supply’ and break-before-make changeover switch, and the requirements for neutral treatment in island mode and impacts on protection operation.-

Just do it the right way FFS

Slightly Kwackers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123155117#Comment_123155117

You said "legal"

I did work in accordance with the 17th edition in the UK.

This was not law, and following it to the letter was not a free ticket absolving the person of blame either.

What next, remove all reactive loads from sale in case the Voltage magnification during an instantanious power cut fries someone near a power line?

Backfeeding is not an uncommon practice, no linesman has been killed or injured due to the practice and can you imagine a situation where everyone diligently removes every load from his domestic supply during a power outage?

A portable generator standing in for a 10 MW generator isn't quite going to keep the local village warm and toasty is it?

Mine packs in in mSec's with a 3kW kettle.

This is a worst case scenario and assumes the generator can be connected to the grid, which is electrically impossible anyway.

A C/O switch works for everyone and is foolproof, but there are other ways of accomplishing the same task. Fortress Interlocks turned it into a very effective business.

meercat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123155117#Comment_123155117

have to quote this because it’s a great post and hopefully the message gets through although as you say

Some people just don’t listen

I’d say there’d be a strong case for involuntary manslaughter if someone was killed because of this setup

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123150675#Comment_123150675

Nuetral earth bonding happens in the FCU on the ESB side.
The earth you are looking at is the earth heading to the earth rod for your main consumer unit.

If voltage appears on the nuetral, it will find its way onto the neutralised earth bar in the ESB FCU.

From there it will travel back onto the grid.

If you have the MCB switched off and voltage appears on the nuetral it will still feed out into the grid via the neutralised earth- this is a massive hazard to linesmen so please don’t attempt this unless you have a properly installed changeover switch.

Slightly Kwackers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123155624#Comment_123155624

Involuntary manslaughter would need a corpse. Such a device would not be available from my "system".

I do listen, but you have not told me anything at all that I do not already know.

I do not know the Irish regs and don't intend buying a copy, but an Amp through an Ohm in Ireland will provide an identical Volt as it will across the water.

The IEE regs are none statutory. If I recollect correctly, it even say's that on the first few pages and if someone cares to buy me an Irish copy I would not be at all surprised to find similar wording.

The legal repercussions come into the interpretation and are sprinkled with terms such as "due care".

If I could somehow produce this hypothetical corpse, then negligence or recklessness would have to proved in a court of law.

I take due care and indeed was even one of those fully certified bods prancing about on some sites with a proving unit when the procedures called for it, in fact I could play the health and safety game to a very unsatisfactory conclusion for some of the "experts" that were able to spot an out of date do not use label on a plug in a mess room but couldn't quite manage to see things even more obvious and far more risky out on site.