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Civil servants told to spend more time in the office - Irish Times - Mod warning #526

LastApacheInjun

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/work/2025/01/31/civil-servants-told-to-spend-more-time-in-office-as-government-scales-back-working-from-home/

What do people think of this?

I work in a public service organisation where we are obliged to spend 50% of our time in the office - and it is rigidly monitored.

There have been threats recently from our senior leadership that they will increase this obligation to 60%, unless 100% of staff are adhering to the 50% all the time.

I do hope that Forsa continue with their strong stance. I mean, one day in the office a week is kind of ridiculous and they should never have started off with that. But they've made their bed now. And I am a strong advocate for hybrid working, with the balance being in favour of WFH as opposed to office time. Less commuting, less environmental effects, more opportunities for people to get on the housing ladder outside of Dublin, regeneration of rural areas, more diverse backgrounds of people working in large government departments etc etc.

I hope the government see sense, but if they don't, I hope Forsa's members feel strongly enough about this to take this all the way to strike action.

#526 Mod:

I'm seeing a lot of low level trolling with generic comments and sweeping statements portrayed as facts; this is the only warning I'll give to up the quality of the discussion and use of actual linked to facts or cards will be handed out.

Current thread banned users:

itsacoolday

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InvisibleInk

It's 3-4 days Dsp are demanding not 2. The sec gen is very very anti wfh and did commission KPMG to do a report on the productivity of it I think. So very surprised they are now saying no data to support. That report clearly shows no productivity gains in office so now not being used... Their sec gen should just retire (they foolishly extended his contract) as he's just not a modern leader and never will be. As I said earlier, led by donkeys. None of the senior teams are modern leaders, all old fashioned old civil servants who all harp back to the good old days in the 70's. Civil service talk about innovation and change, will never happen with donkeys like that in the senior positions. They have no idea what innovation or change really is.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120114#Comment_123120114

I'm VERY dubious about claims that WFH increases productivity.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. But actual studies would disagree with you.

We discourage it for most staff, mainly because most of the work we do is collaborative, and we find that we just don't get the same quality of work when staff are not in the same place.

So, not like most office/public service work, then, where most is process-driven. Not like for like.

In terms of quantity of work, as opposed to quality, I find that the people who are diligent and hard working in the office, are diligent and hard working when working from home, and the reverse also applies

Yup. Absolutely. I've known and "worked" with malingerers and dossers, pre- and post-Covid. You don't doss more just because you're not in the office, and if you're a dosser when WFH, you'll doss in the office too.

JobTalkBoards

Don’t let old ways of thinking endanger new ways of working

Dear members,

On Thursday evening 30th January, I wrote to all Fórsa members working in the Department of Social Protection (DSP) and the Department of Finance, instructing members to continue to work the patterns they have worked up to now. This is in response to a directive to reduce remote working days from next week.

By now you may have heard coverage of this in the media. I am writing to you now to underline that while this instruction applies to members in these two Departments, we are taking this stand to protect hybrid working across the civil service.

Reviews of hybrid working arrangements must be based on analytics which take account of the benefit to the workplace, the worker, and the wider socio-economic benefits.

We cannot let old ways of thinking endanger new ways of working. We must take this strong stand because a roll back on hybrid working arrangements for some would create a precedent that could impact all civil servants.

This is a serious and avoidable dispute that concerns the unilateral alteration of the Blended Working Policy 2022 to the disadvantage of workers, without discussion, analytics or prior consultation. It is also in clear breach of the Public Service Agreement 2024 -2026 which you voted to approve last year.

It is the first instance in which the Government has rolled back remote working arrangements for its own staff, following the recent publication of the new Programme for Government, which commits the new administration to a review of remote and blended work policies.

If you have any questions on how this impacts you, you should speak to your workplace rep, branch or official.

The union has issued a press release which you can read here.

Yours sincerely,

Éamonn Donnelly
Deputy General Secretary, Head of Civil Service Division

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058392591/civil-servants-told-to-spend-more-time-in-the-office-irish-times

Fórsa must be on a recruitment drive.

If they were truly interested, they would have engaged in the process when the Blended Working Policy Framework was being developed for the entire Civil Service, but they didn't. They barely engaged, not even bothering to poll their members to see what their preferences were. They were invisible during the process.

Each individual department can set their own WFH / WFO policies, within that Framework. A "one-for-all" change for the entire service would require revisiting the Blended Working Policy Framework. My own department reviewed our policy recently, and there were no changes made. (2 Days WFO / 3 days WFH).

Social Protection and/or Finance can make changes to their Department policy if they wish once it complies with the Framework. Depts that have no number or only one day per week WFO are in the minority.

It's not a matter for the Union either, as WFH is like flexi - it is a privilege, not a right.

The Union won't win this.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120807#Comment_123120807

I can see the unions folding. Reason being, large numbers of public servants are frontline and can't work from home. And the most militant and active unions seem to be those representing these frontline workers.

Are, say, nurses working in bad conditions in UHL going to be willing to support a strike by office workers wanting to retain their WFH days. I've heard frontline worker complaining bitterly about their own office and admin colleagues working from home arrangements "probably sitting around watching fcukin Box Sets" was one comment I heard. Also, would the general public be supportive of a strike by so called pen pushers.

NapoleonInRags

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123121039#Comment_123121039

Looks like DSP has rowed back - a clear sign that they were in the wrong…

InvisibleInk

This is the gamble Dsp are taking, that unions won't do anything. Then next year they will increase to 4/5 days wfo until it disappears. In this age of full employment when they are struggling to get staff... They try to impose this... I would turn down a CS promotion if I got Dsp and looking at the 22 AP comp I see a good few who landed Dsp did.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120668#Comment_123120668

Fórsa signed up to the Blended Working Policy Framework, in the full knowledge that a central part of that Framework is each Department can set its own policy on WFO / WFH.

Departments do not have to consult with the Union on changes to their policy.

Blended Working is, and since the inception of the policy, been a privilege and not a right. It does not formulate part of anyone's contract of employment or terms and conditions.

And while I feel for those in DSP and Finance now who are being asked to attend the office more frequently, the Union always knew what the deal was, and are leading them down a fool's path with threats of strike action.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123121076#Comment_123121076

This will be the straw that breaks the camels back when it comes to union membership. If they dont or cant take action to protect WFH then id hope people will wisen up and cancel their dues. This will hit people harder than a lousy extra 1or 2 percent in a pay deal.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123121073#Comment_123121073

This is definitely happening on the ground. Departments with less favourable blended working policies will be less appealing to staff and will have more staff applying for mobility.

The days of five days a week in the office are gone and despite many who would like to see it return, it's not going to happen.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123121106#Comment_123121106

This 100%

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123121091#Comment_123121091

TBH, I never understood their lack of engagement during the two years of intense consultation that went on across all departments that resulted in the formulation of the current Framework.

I have very, very, low expectations of the public service unions, after that.

Sonics2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120615#Comment_123120615

Absolutely go with the 5 days remote. Aside from my current health issues, it's just down to logistics.

I live technically about 20 minutes away from where my office is, but you can be damn sure when I was going to the office it would easily take an hour or more each way down to the sheer volume of traffic, accidents and so on.

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123121073#Comment_123121073

DSP are one of only a few that require staff in 2 days a week. Many others require their staff in for more. Revenue are still 1 I think but a complete outlier.

crinkley

NSSO are one until September, defence, education and environment are 2 to name but a few

NapoleonInRags

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123121076#Comment_123121076

Completely incorrect. Section 4.1 of the Framework copied below:

4.1
Every Civil Service Department and Office should develop and implement a Blended Working Policy in
consultation with local employee representatives through appropriate local fora.

Larbre34

Blah, blah, framework blah.

The Unions in the public sector are powerful. Maybe less powerful than they once were, but powerful enough nonetheless.

Its the dominant reason that reform of the Health sector has failed, again and again.

I'm not saying the Union intervention in this working time/loc issue is right or wrong, but it would be a strange hill for the management and government to die on, considering that a) there will always be bigger battles ahead, and b) the government is going to have to further incentivise WFH, across all sectors, if they want to have any hope in hell of getting near their 2030 carbon goals.

I fully expect both Departments under discussion here to be still working the pattern a year from now, that they are working today.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120426#Comment_123120426

It's really not.

noodler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123121069#Comment_123121069

Or the sense of entitlement and outrage was disproportionate.

skidmarkoner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120071#Comment_123120071

You can't clock in from your phone in my department anyway, I don't know anybody across the whole civil service that can

skidmarkoner

Anyway this doesn't bode well, with the introduction of AI and now core departments mimicking a trump move it just screams thinning the herd methods to me.

angel eyes 2012

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058392591/civil-servants-told-to-spend-more-time-in-the-office-irish-times

How does wfh encourage more diverse backgrounds of people working in Departments? Any evidence to support this assertion and why is this a positive? Surely civil servants should be hired on a merit based system of recruitment, representing fairness and equality.

herbalplants

I work 2 days in the office and I can say 100% they are my less productive days without a doubt.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123121735#Comment_123121735

Civil service is largely Dublin based. So if you want to work there you need to live in Dublin or be already there. Living in Dublin is expensive. So a lot of people can't afford to live there.

Allowing wfh opens up job opportunities around the country.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123121269#Comment_123121269

Should being the operative word. But as I said, the Unions didn't bother engaging, and quite honestly, a lot of the staff didn't seem too bothered either. I was involved both in the consultation process and in developing the policy within my own department, and saw it for myself. That is why I am skeptical of this "show" being put on by the Unions now.

itsacoolday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120158#Comment_123120158

You are dead right when you say you sometimes take a nap on your office couch, and while you admit you post on boards while being paid to work, none of this affects your ability to do your job. Take as many naps as you want during the day, do the household chores, take the kids places….you will still have the ability to do your job.

A close neighbour and friend of mine works in the public service and as she admits herself, she always calls a spade a spade and is great crack, she gets little to nothing done since wfh at the start of covid and loves the flexibility it gives her. She has lots of time for her hobbies, chores etc, and every chance she gets in the summer she is sunbathing outside and is always well tanned. At least she is not stressed, a stressed employee is a bad employee.

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123121960#Comment_123121960

Her boss is responsible for giving her the work because she doesn't sound the type to go looking for it.

Necro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120749#Comment_123120749

Union strength, primarily. Same union that's about to ballot members on this issue.

Necro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123121949#Comment_123121949

It's like everything imo people don't care about these things until it actually might affect them, and then it's too late! I'm not WFH now but have done in the past so have seen both sides, if it's changed it won't matter a jot to me but I do know that some (not all) are most definitely taking the piss while WFH.

Half the problem with the claimed issues is managers simply not managing.

Not calling people back in if they're abusing the privilege or need extra training being the main issue. Definitely very prevalent from my experience

Covidhaveago

what are the NSSO doing?