Old thread seems to be permanently locked. It will be interesting if anything can come of this at last.
Threadbanned Posters:
Wouldn't have to be in a pocket, could have been in a vehicle or otherwise close to hand…
Might be the sort of thing to be found in the boot of someone who does gardening for others, a caretaker, or someone's shed.
In the reddit post from Phil Mathers on it, he seemed to think it was only the briars near the body that were cut - rather than a general cutting. And also it wasn't done by forensics.
There are many photos of the hedge and nothing else appears to be cut. One of the cut stems is still green, so it hasn’t been cut all that long ago, and December is an odd time of the year for gardening. It is far enough away from the latch to be connected with the free movement of the gate.
The cut stems appear in the very first two photos taken by Detective Garda Pat Joy. In one photo we can see Shirley Foster’s car beside the body so this photo was taken before 12:30 on 23rd December, we know her car was moved by Gardai farther down the lane before this time. The forensic team didn’t show up until 11pm that evening. These photos prove the briar stems were cut before or during the murder.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MurderAtTheCottage/comments/1efq5z8/briar_stems_and_other_troubling_details/?rdt=62430
I'm not buying this theory. If the killer had to cut poor Sophie out of a bramble patch in order to complete his crime, he would have to have had a cutting tool in his pocket. This man who committed a murder with only the stones and blocks that happened to be lying around!
But just supposing the man has no weapons, but DOES have a scissors, secateurs or knife in his pocket. Right, how does he cut the briars? Without touching a single one? If he had gloves on - not unreasonable on a cold December morning - he would have to have left traces of fibres, threads or scraps, on at least one of the thorns. If he didn't have gloves on, his hands would be scratched for sure, but there would also be fingerprints left on items at the scene. It doesn't really add up. And nobody can be sure just WHEN the branches were cut. (Unless I have misread the reasoning)
I think the reasoning is to allow the assailant to pull Sophie back down from the ditch. The body is on top of a cut briar, numbered V, not in the photo in the link posted, but is in the Reddit photos. As far as I can see, there are no cut off briars left around, so maybe they were taken in case they contained forensic evidence. Or were they cut and bagged by Garda Pat Joy before the body was covered around 1 or 2 o’clock?
Its interesting but I just can't see a reason for the killer to cut the briars.
If true, it also suggests that the killer(s) had time to tidy up and not worry about being interrupted
If true it does indicate a calmness or even a clean up. Why move the body anyway?
That's a new angle. I'll excerpt this from the original reddit post that the Crime Guy post refers to:
These are not the actions of a rage-filled disorganized killer. They are certainly not the actions of an inebriated killer. It also suggests an element of planning to the killing. Where did the killer get the tool necessary to cut the briars? It's improbable he carried this on his person. It is more likely he retrieved it from his vehicle or even from Sophie's house.
This may be relevant as something new? The killer may have cut the briars?
https://www.crimeguy.com/p/nsfw-sophie-and-the-briars
I think a shotgun would be the usual method.
That would fit the Garda “Bailey” theory . I would imagine there’s enough research out there on domestic violence injuries - there’s a possibility that Sophie’s “non fatal” injuries are similar to that of a domestic violence situation- but if they are, I don’t think such evidence was in the DPP reports - it would need very clear scientific support to submit such as evidence - but it’s quite possible and feasible if true- ie showing how there were x non fatal injuries indicating a typical y type attack
Imo the murderer beat her to a pulp in a rage, realised there was no going back, and then used the block to make sure that she was dead. More of an escalation without limit, than any sort of planned attack. The use of a block would seem to me the sort of way someone may have learned to put an injured animal out of it's misery in a rural area, but I don't know much about that.
In reference to the Sophie murder- and In the words of Joe O”Reilly, convicted killer serving a life sentence -“why would you go to the degree of murdering somebody……..if they can’t identify ya”
Let me clear also- I don’t want a police force afraid to act- and indeed we have seen that factor creep in with the current Commissioners reign - I know there was a lot of sh-te to clear up - from penalty points cancelling to much more serious issues such as bullying of officers etc
You can clean up a police force, but also bring them forward and leave that behind- I think he’s helped clean up the force in some ways -but I think it’s been at the expense of stagnation - of fear- of not being able to use initiative - that can’t be helping both this and the other murder investigation cases mentioned over the last number of posts. Certainly in my mind, there’s an overhaul of a Garda watchdog with real teeth - we’ve seen multiple reports of GSOC been blocked by the Garda force when trying to do their job - there’s too many officers on leave whilst trivial investigations take place over YEARS- exhibit “a”- the missing bicycle during lockdown.
And also- the commissioner must go - he’s bloody useless - exhibit “b”- Dublin riots.
It’s no wonder no one has been caught for Sophie’s murder.
it’s both, family closing ranks, with connections allowing the time and space to do so….
...where’s the accountability?
Simple answer is that there is none. Not one politician is making an issue out of say the Una Lynskey case (which to be fair is under Cold Case review).
The investigation into Joanne Hayes garda conduct became an "isn't she a slut" investigation.
Not one member of the force will be punished. All were given nice pensions or promotions and back slaps from their seniors. Sure, how many gardai were reprimanded for Maurice McCabes treatment?
In the Pender case, it wasn't so much a matter of being well-connected; more like an entire family closed ranks.
More than one of the possible suspects are now living in Canada, so I heard.
Fiona Pender also. Last person to see her alive was her partner, violent towards her previously, but well connected supposedly.
My bigger, much bigger question is- all of these cases are stewing away - where’s the accountability? Mistakes I accept - but incompetence and repeated mistakes and incompetence - it’s not good enough- we need better accountability. The Gardai and the government of the day have been in cahoots for too long - we need a proper independent accountability structure in place -GSOC are fckin useless and powerless
I don't think Sophie was struck and immediately silenced.
There were numerous defensive wounds on her hands and arms, indicating that the attack was prolonged. One would expect, in such a situation, cries of pain and pleas to stop, help etc.
Yes, he almost definitely would have done.
But he said he didn't.
If you look at the Joanne Hayes case, they didn't bother looking properly when she said where her baby had been buried. They only found it when a second more thorough search was undertaken. She told them exactly where he was buried and they didn't find him a few days after burial.
You also have to remember that there is a murderer walking freely out there somewhere. But Sophie's killer isn't the only example: there are others and through sheer incompetence and stubborness of that incompetence, the murderers have been allowed to remain completely free. Decades after Una Lynskey's murder and the wrongful accusations of three neighbours, one of whom was beaten to death by Una's family, a private investigator was able to track down the likely killer - but the bullish gardai at the time were unable and unwilling to do that one thing (i.e. their job).
“They already have one who is not Sophie or Bailey. Start with that”
I don’t understand how that wasn’t progressed through the years - only reassurance I have is the DPP files submitted - those piles of poo show that Gardai had their priorities up their collective arses - unidentified DNA was present - just what have they done in 20+ years to progress that ? We as paying public no less the family deserve clear answers- they’ve released information to journalists on many other murder investigations - absolutely nothing on this
The thing is we don't know.
Alfie and Shirley could be telling the truth, but they could also be telling lies, deliberately, if they were involved in the murder.
Suppose, just for speculation's sake, Sophie was really hit unexpectedly from behind, did not shout on top of her lungs, did not put up a fight, it's entierely possible that Alfie and Shirley were indeed telling the truth and didn't hear anything that night. And then remember the blood stain at the door? Would the killer have returned to the house if Sophie was shouting loudly for help? Probably not, the killer would have left quicker, not bothered going to Sophie's house afterwards, having fears that Alfie or Shirley could see him.
I don't think that Alfie and Shirley would have heard something like the start of the engine of a car, nor if the car was driven slowly, say at 1000 to 1500 rpm away from the scene. So the killer could easily have left quietly as well.
Tons of clues were overlooked, in particular body temp, and some were noted though. “Blood fresh on the face” in particular is very telling imo. From a Garda no less who is about the most knowledgeable of these things outside of the medical industry. Would indicate a very recent death.
Multiple hits of DNA would be a good problem to have, one of course is preferable. Then a proper investigation could begin. They already have one who is not Sophie or Bailey. Start with that
He said any noise was blocked by the conservatory I believe.
However he wasn’t deaf so he should have had deep questioning about things he did hear. Creaks, animals, car horns etc. their house was only half a km from a main road over the hill.
That he heard nothing at all isn’t credible imo. However anything he did hear could have easily been dismissed, which is more likely imo. Shirley in particular never made the claim she didn’t hear anything as far as I can tell
But Alfie was up from 6am or so, he would almost certainly have heard the commotion (whatever about not hearing anything when he was asleep).
"Known her" would have meant, she easily would have opened up the door, she had a conversation with somebody, had time to put on boots, walk with him to the gates, still talking and not expecting anything. The killer struck her from behind, totally unexpected, not much noise. The killer may have had blood on his hands or arms, later returned to the house where the blood stain at the door would have been made. This would also explain why Alfie and Shirley didn't hear anything at all.
I always say, that those who "believe" should go to church on Sunday. Believing doesn't mean much in a murder investigation. It is only an indication that the Gardai is investigating into a certain direction based on the leads, or very few leads or old leads and some hearsay they have coupled with the general lack of evidence. They probably came back to this line of enquiry on whether Bailey knew Sophie or not as there is total lack of every other evidence.
We also don't know how that DNA re-examination is going to go, how long it takes to get results, and even if the results are credible. I would also guess loads of people, first and foremost Guards handled the matter in an unprofessional way, thus anybody's DNA could easily have been on clothes, gotten there later on, after the murder, etc…
Other than that, it's a fact that in the majority of killings, killer and victim knew each other or had some other dealing/ or whatever relationship / business going on. It would be the basis of a motive. But nearly 30 years on, we can all only speculate about the motive.
Bailey could have done it, but so could have all the others.
I know it’s a simple thing but bread and bread knife on the counter - French - that indicates breakfast time to me -touching the loaf of bread would have given them a potential clue - if hard, then left out all night- if relatively soft then more likely morning time she had that or at least was intending to have it - it’s not rocket science but unfortunately the egos of the Gardai took over on the morning and everybody had to wait for the “experts” to arrive to start the investigation
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://www.boards.ie/applications/dashboard/design/images/banned.png)
