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E1 to ??? by replacing a gas boiler with a heatpump ?

championc

Hi all,

APPROXIMATELY, if replacing a gas boiler with a heatpump, and doing nothing else to the house, how many levels is a BER likely to jump.

It's a 3 bed Semi, and a neighbor is selling and their house is an E1, and I just wonder approximately what ours might be (in or around)

Would it bring us up to the C's, or even B's ?

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SimpleDimple

A quick Google says what I suspected in that you should do the heat after getting the house sealed and / or insulated. I think you need a heat loss indicator of less than 2 before considering a heat pump, anything worse than that and it won't heat your home effectively. There'd be better ways to improve your ber, windows and doors and insulation.

championc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123056609#Comment_123056609

I have one, and was getting a COP over 3 last week, and a COP today of 5.01, with heatpump consumption of 8kWh

But all I am simply asking is, if replacing a gas boiler with a 5kW heat pump, what would an E1 rating likely jump to ?

Biker1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058388694/e1-to-by-replacing-a-gas-boiler-with-a-heatpump

The only way of knowing the effect of a heat pump on the BER is to get the assessor to input the data for a heat pump into the system.

championc

So any assessor type guys on here that can give me a ballpark idea ???

Private Joker

It would probably bring you up to a C2 but the rating is irrelevant, it would cost you a fortune to use it. As stated you need a HLI of under 2 to use it efficently. An E rated house probably means it was built from the prior to 1990's so default values are used in the absence of performance data for windows, doors insulation etc. If you were going for a grant you would need a technical assessment done.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058388694/e1-to-by-replacing-a-gas-boiler-with-a-heatpump

why would you do that ? A heat pump in an old house full of leaks is crazy

championc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123223701#Comment_123223701

Why ?

Because I have saved a fortune this winter on heating costs - that's why !!!

A heatpump is just another heat source. It can still work very well in a leaky house, once it's designed correctly, and installed with the correct settings.

It's down to the COP. If you can run with a COP better than about 2.0, you should be pretty close to being quids in.

In my case, I had a non-condensing non-modulating combi boiler. It had a COP of 0.65 at best.

At present, I have a SCOP of 3.98, and in February the heatpump used 340kWh

If that wasn't enough, the majority of this power was on night rate into batteries, @ 5c/kWh 😃

So do more research, rather than just making unfounded statements

ted1

gas is 1/3 to 1/7 the price of electricity a COP of 2.0 would mean it’s at best 33% dearer than gas

gas is mouth more responsive of electricity and much more Flexible

Heat pumps take longer to heat up and generally need larger radiators and retention be on when the house is empty , so that it be warm when people return

how much did you spend on the heat pump and upgrading your house ?

championc

Zero spent on upgrades. Heatpump was a self install, imported from the UK (Vaillant AroTherm 5kW). Tops €5k

If anyone is paying electricity 7 times more expensive than gas, they need their heads tested. I think 1/3 would be around right for most

Thankfully my electricity is under 1/2 what I was paying for gas. And I've no gas standing charge now either

Dr.Tom

Can you please enlighten me/us as I am lost.

You have an identical house to your neighbour. He has gas and you have a heat pump. He has an E1 BER rating and you have none. You are asking what his BER will be if he puts in a heat pump.

You seem to have lots of knowledge regarding your self install heat pump setup that cost thousands yet never paid for a BER pre or post install and expect an answer here based on your neighbours house.

Have I all this correct?

championc

Correct

I was interested in knowing the approximate change up - purely for curiosity. I got my answer already from someone else by PM.

I have no interest in ever moving, so I have zero reason to ever (or at least currently) need a BER.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123224329#Comment_123224329

his neighbours house is an E1 yet his id apparently air right

Dr.Tom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123224346#Comment_123224346

Thanks for clearing that up.

BER is a bit of a "pinch of salt" document in a sense. I only ever got one when needed to sell a property, but depending your financial circumstances it may benefit you or others to have one to qualify for a green mortgage or loan.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123224346#Comment_123224346

But you have battery storage which is a major factor in your running costs. So to say you have zero upgrade other than heat pump is not correct.

championc

The fabric of the house is still the same.

Adding a battery has zero effect on BER.

So a BER change and question was purely based on the removal of a gas boiler and replacing it with a heatpump - which in my opinion is a very plain and simple question.

And in fact, as I understand it, BER will only reference those very facts. It will have nothing to do with whether it is being run at 55deg like a gas boiler, or have a crazy weather curve setting.

The BER appears to be an assumption that it's far cheaper to run, which in fact, for some, couldn't be further from the truth sadly.

championc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123224405#Comment_123224405

Where did you get this from ? It is the the one thing that I have said did not happen.

Or are you being sarcastic on the basis that I installed a heatpump in a leaky house ?

championc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123224019#Comment_123224019

And let me enlighten you with numbers

I used an average of 15kWh of electricity during February. That generated an average of 50kWh of HEAT per day.

To generate 50kWh of heat from my Combi would have needed at least 77kWh of gas.

Suppose electricity was 37c / kWh (my Pinergy Day rate) and gas was 10c / kWh

37c x 15 = €5.55

8c x 77 = €6.16

So the heatpump wins hands down, as this is possibly the max electricity rate and the absolute lowest gas rate

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123225708#Comment_123225708

but it’s not comparable. A gas boiler responds better. You can come into a cold house and within 30 minutes have a warm house. A heat pump doesn’t give the same response.
heat pumps are inefficient in a house that isn’t airtight

Heat pumps work with lower temperatures than gas boilers your radiators are not getting to the same

Temperature

how did you measure the 50kw a COP of 3.33

championc

I have my system on heatpumpmonitor.org

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123224472#Comment_123224472

My point was that you have added a battery to shift your consumption to cheaper rate. All good but it is masking the real electricity cost of running heat pump in an inefficient house.

championc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123226125#Comment_123226125

See my last post, where I have shown it's still cheaper, despite having all electricity on the most expensive rate on the market vs lower than the lowest gas rate.

And it can only get better.

And I have a house waaayyyy more comfortable than ever before

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123224346#Comment_123224346

its likely your BER is now worse than your neighbours.

youre installing a heat pump into a dwelling with probably a HLI in the range of 3-5. given its currently an E1.
you wont have a heat pump designer sign off, therefore default water temps will be inputted, with an 8 hour operation time (instead of 24 hr) which will CRUCIFY your BER

both of these will mean the assessed heat pump COP will really struggle to get above the 250% which, at a minimum, would be required to raise your BER.

championc

Although the BER should have improved with no Gas meter I assume ???

And I thought BER was about physical device evidence, and not how it runs ??? In other words, providing the manufacturers spec sheet / documentation

As an aside, my COP today is 4.79 (being mild) and my SCOP is 4.00 on the button

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123238506#Comment_123238506

no, the BER is about accredited evidence.

if your heat pump is a self install, then there hasnt been a design of the system in accordance with SR 50-01:2021

the lack of the evidence really hurts the final assessment. For example the 8 hour operation time compared to 24 hour can pull an A2 house down to a B1. In your case with such a poor HLI (again due to lack of evidence) it will be even worse.

so in my opinion, as a BER assessor for the last 18 years, if i was to do a pre and post BER on your house, with the information youve supplied so far in this thread, youd end up with a worse BER after the heat pump install than what you had before.

championc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123238058#Comment_123238058

This sounds like it falls into the common narrative of "heat pumps don't work in poorly insulated homes".

I also only run 14 hrs per day, rather than 24 hrs.

I've no plans to ever move, so I've zero requirement for a BER. But it's all good to know info.

Question though - can bills for electricity and gas be used as "evidence" ?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123239862#Comment_123239862

can bills for electricity and gas be used as "evidence"

absolutely not.

you are falling into the SEAI laid trap of thinking the BER is a reflection of the specific energy efficiency of your house.

its not….. the whole system is not designed to do that.

The system is there purely to compare dwellings with each other, to compare like with like.

In order to do that the software makes many, many assumptions, uses default non-specific value inputs and some very weird calculation conventions.

bakerbhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123225708#Comment_123225708

So you put in 15 kw and get 50kw out… Some physics professors would love to see how you achive that….

championc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123242616#Comment_123242616

Eh ? You living under a rock ? That's why heatpumps are the future

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123242616#Comment_123242616

Where's the nearest face palm emoji

bakerbhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123242892#Comment_123242892

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123242922#Comment_123242922

So in your E1 ber rated dwelling. Simpley putting in a heatpump achieves this..????

A. Bore hole system highest efficiency ..highest cost

B. Ground loop

C Air to water least efficient most common variant pushed...

How much energy/€€ is exhausted in retrofitting the dwelling to bring up to standard to allow your chosen heatpump to perform..

Ber is a missed opportunity and a scam on the population...

It does not by default give an accurate report on the actual energy efficiency of the property.

It doesn't even give an accurate theoretical report on an older property..

Using default values because certificates are not available but clear evidence ignored...

Advisory reports generated by Seai not the accessor....

Designed to frighten people into costly and in many cases unwarranted upgrades..

Ber is a theoretical notion…

The Nct for our cars is a gold standard in comparison to this ...

Pull up your pants and don't be embarrassing your self..

Look up the law of conservation of energy...

Hint its a constant..

15 kw in 15 kw out in different forms...