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Upgrades done. Upgrades to do. What do do?

...Ghost...

Hi lads/ladettes. Sorry, this is a bit long, but stick with me for a minute.

I've been slowly upgrading electrics as finances allow and as I switch to renewables. My house is a late 70s build. Had no issues with electrics, but needed a new CU as the old one was a mess and had to have a separate mini board added a few years ago for EV/Shower isolator. This is before load sensing was commonplace.

I had 5kW of Solar installed in March. As part of the install, I negotiated an all-in-one package with the solar company to have their electricians (contractors) upgrade my CU and tails to allow for a 100A ESB main fuse.

What I had:

8kVa supply (only recently discovered)

10mm^2 tails and a mess of a CU from the mid 90s with a tacked on priority board from the shower/EV.

I got an earth rod and bonding done last year to prepare for solar.

What I wanted:

25mm^2 tails (16mm^2 earth) for 100A ESB main fuse upgrade.

New CU with extra space for planned additional capacity.

What I got:

25mm^2 tails as requested. They put an 80A breaker/(isolator?) into the meter cabinet.

A new CU, but as they combined it with the older split unit housing the shower/EV priority switch, I didn't end up with much space for spares. Probably enough space for 4 spares. I also just checked after reading this 12kVa to 16kVa thread and the CU says it's rated 63A.

I also have a pending free upgrade from 8kVa to 16kVa from ESB, who have installed an 80A fuse in the meter. The ESB electrician said he should only be putting a 60A fuse, but put in an 80A when I explained the scope of the works.

Overall, I am happy with the work, but seeing the 63A on the CU is a bit of a dampener. I don't know if the busbars are also only 63A rated. Not sure what steps to take.

We are high users. 15k units consumed last year. Dublin suburbs. Lots of us in the house. 2 EVs, Solar, 30kWh storage and we hoover up as much electricity as possible on the cheap 2-6am rate with Energia to reduce the bills. Our heating is Gas and our hob is gas. Although we use very little gas (€600 in 2023) I would like to get rid of our gas boiler and move to a HP if possible.

My 2-3 year Plan:

Get my supply upgraded to 16kVa. I wonder if it's worth asking ESB about doing this before they install the 12kVa and would there be a reduction in the normal cost of upgrade if they do this when they would be doing the 12kVa anyway?? My supply is looped to my neighbours…if that makes any difference.

Get my 5kW Hybrid inverter upgrade to 8 or 12kW to accommodate for faster battery charge/discharge rates, also reducing/eliminating any draw from the grid outside of the cheap rate.

Install another 5kW of solar on my shed and extension, most likely using N-Phase micro inverters. This will involve a leccy installing a mini CU in the shed. I already have a spare 32A in the main CU to feed into.

What way would you go about it? The outstanding issues are the possibly limited CU to 63A and the currently 8kVa…hopefully soon to be 12kVa or maybe even 16kVa supply, depending on cost.

The old CU and priority switch unit.

The new CU

Meter box prior to ESB connecting tails

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JL spark

your new fuseboard is not rated for 16kva , should be a enhanced board with 80-100amp rating ,

I’d ne getting back on to them ,,

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122715046#Comment_122715046

Yeah, I think I will. At the very least, the board is fine for 12kVa, which is what I will have soon unless I decide to go 16kVa if I can get a better deal than the standard upgrade cost from 12-16, as they are doing the 12 for free.

The fact they put in an 80A over current MCB is enough to show they messed up and put in the wrong board. ESB won't put in 16kVa unless the board is up to scratch.

10-10-20

Is that wooden enclosure permitted around the meter? I have not seen similar previously. Is it because of a external wall insulation?

meercat

if you are considering a 16kv supply then turn main cables should be upgraded to 25mm and the earth rod wire to 16mm (you should check as I wouldn’t be 100% sure from the photos and also I’d expect bigger glands.)

I agree that the distribution board should also be upgraded and I’d suggest metal considering it’s under the stairs (it’s permitted to replace an existing)

I’d also suggest a much bigger one considering everything you have squeezed into that new 3row one

That meter box will also have to be replaced and possibly repositioned as it’s not physically big enough to fit an enhanced supply

JL spark

I’d love to see the inside of that board

blackbox

When you opt for a high power supply, do they not move you onto 3 phase?

meercat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717880#Comment_122717880

me too. I’d say it’s tight

“New CU with extra space for planned additional capacity”

I wouldn’t think there’s much room

JL spark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122719129#Comment_122719129

especially with 25ml tails

munsterfan2

"Get my 5kW Hybrid inverter upgrade to 8 or 12kW to accommodate for faster battery charge/discharge rates, also reducing/eliminating any draw from the grid outside of the cheap rate."

Is this allowed - I have two inverters ( a 2.5 and a 3.5 ). The 3.5 is connected to a 300ah battery and 12 x 375 panels (2 strings ). I wouldnt mind updating the inverter to 8kw and adding another 280ah to the battery. I cant charge the battery fully in my 4hour windows ( 20% - 92%) as the solis is limited to 60ah charging. Would that 8kw inverter be "allowed" ?

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122716499#Comment_122716499

That's the original enclosure. It's been there for the 38 years I've lived in the house. The only change in recent years was to replace the old wooden door with a new one.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122716750#Comment_122716750

The cables are 25 and 16. I compared the 16 earth to a 10 earth I had and it's noticeably different. The paperwork sent to safe electric also specified 25mm tails upgrade.

I've emailed the solar company about the CU. Let's see what they say.

What else needs to go into the meter box for 16kVa? It wouldn't be a big deal if it needed to be made a bit roomier. That's something I could do…..carefully.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717880#Comment_122717880

There's not much room. Possible to fit a couple more breakers, but not exactly what I wanted. Would have made more sense to me if they kept the priority switch separate, but I see why they stuffed it in the third row.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122719452#Comment_122719452

The inverter can be upgraded with a successful NC7. Another way to get more into the batteries is to add a DC-DC charger to the circuit, so it works alongside the inverter, but separate to it. Export and discharge is also still limited to 5kW in such circumstance.

meercat

this is the space required for a 16kva supply

you’ll also need some groundwork and ducting in place to facilitate esbn upgrade irrespective of wether it’s 12kva or 16kva

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122715046#Comment_122715046

Hi JL (or any electrician reading this). I was speaking to the solar guy today who says the electrical contractor said he doesn't know what I am talking about when referring to an enhanced supply consumer unit. Logic would suggest that if the isolator in the meter cabinet is 80A, then the fuseboard should also be rated for atleast 80A as you had previously said.

I even found the :hager Vega units that state they are for 16kVa Supply, but I am getting some push back and the solar company have asked for something to say I need an enhanced fuseboard for a 16kVa supply. He asked if I had a letter from ESB saying I need an enhanced board, which of course I don't, as I haven't applied for the 16kVa upgrade at this point. Where do I point them to, to prove this point and get them to finish the job I asked for without escalating this?

meercat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122831927#Comment_122831927

esbn won’t have any input whether or not you need an enhanced distribution board.Their responsibility is only to the meter cabinet. It’s up to your rec to do the correct installation and certify it.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122832000#Comment_122832000

I see. Thanks. Is there a requirement to have the enhanced board in the regs or from safe electric?

meercat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122832020#Comment_122832020

all electrical equipment that’s installed should be capable of taking the expected load.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122832038#Comment_122832038

That of course makes total sense. I guess i'm asking for a regulation that spells it out so I can send this to the solar company. If an 80A breaker/isolator was installed with the knowledge of a planned 16kVa supply and 100A ESB fuse, then I would love to be able to say "look here, this is the regulation that says the fuseboard should match/exceed the rating of the 80A fuse in the meter cabinet". I can't find anything on it.

meercat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122832058#Comment_122832058

you can’t list everything that’s not permitted but perhaps these 2 regulations cover your instances

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122832081#Comment_122832081

Maybe the manufacturers instructions is the best bet. I'll pass that on and see what they say.

meercat

just as an additional note

if you are upgrading that distribution board you should consider a metal one. Distribution boards aren’t permitted to be mounted under the stairs

you’re case is slightly different I know as you were replacing an existing one (which is permitted)but your rec should have spotted this and recommended a metal one.

drury..

Enhanced isn't an electrical term as such it's an esbn description of a supply they provide

There wouldn't be any specific regulation re enhanced afaik

The enhanced board would be designed to be rated for the 16kva and would be the correct board to fit

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122832235#Comment_122832235

In reality the board for a “standard” supply will have the same rating as the one for the enhanced supply.

drury..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122837447#Comment_122837447

The enhanced board components are rated higher than a standard board

100A isolator

80A rcds and probably more

I wasn't aware of them myself until jl spark posted it previously as im mostly retired these days

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122837808#Comment_122837808

Yes, I see what you mean.

My approach is different. I would avoid using any RCD’s, instead I would use RCBO’s.

I also wouldn’t consider using an isolator rated below 80A in either case.

Similar with busbar, I would use the same rating either was.

drury..

Ya I used to make them up myself back in the day the few I did

80A main mcb as main overcurrent protection hadn't moved to the cabinet then

Better quality supply rurally also as ESBN wouldn't tap off 230v lines for a new enhanced connection they'd use the MV

JL spark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122837808#Comment_122837808

is a big difference, 100amp RCD ,busbar is heavier,neutral and earth bars can take 25sq ,

Panel flex is 16sq ,

Plenty of cowboys out there wiring 16KVA connections with 16sq mains and standard boards

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839965#Comment_122839965

There is only a difference if you do not install this as standard. As above an RCD is only a requirement if you don't install an RCBO per circuit which is increasingly becoming the norm.

drury..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122840136#Comment_122840136

There's a 63A board and an enhanced board for 16kva

No big deal they're different

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122840445#Comment_122840445

They can be different, yes.

I work in the industrial sector, people with my background tend to take a use apply a more robust solution than is absolutely necessary. This can mean using more RCBOs, isolators with a higher rating that the minimum required, larger panel flex and bus bars than the minimum etc so for me and those that I work with it would be the same board.

But as you say, no big deal

...Ghost...

So if I am running close to 80A regularly during the 4 hour cheap rate, am I ok with th 63A rated board, or should I insist on the enhanced board? I don't know what the FoS is on these boards.

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122840806#Comment_122840806

You just need to ensure that the components that are carrying 80A are rated for this high a current. This would include all conductors including busbar, cables and protective devices.

How do you have such a high current? What is the main protective device rating? It should have a higher rating than the design current.