I already did in my first post in this thread. Contestable kicks from hand, kicked his points, passed well and made his tackles. Not sure what else was expected of him when the team momentum kept stuttering due to handling errors, line out malfunctions and poor discipline.
It’s an appeal to authority
It’s not. Farrell is the Ireland coach, his opinion is directly relevant and in fact is the only one that’s relevant.
An “appeal to authority” in this context would be something like “Graham Henry says Frawley is great”, or indeed citing the number of boards posters who agree with an opinion.
I think he objectively had a poor game…
That's not objective. It's literally the opposite. Plenty of others on this thread subjectively disagree with you.
If you want things he did well, he kicked his goals, he kicked contestables well from hand, tackled extremely well, ran a couple of good trail lines (one in particular from Aki, I think, where if the offload goes, he's away) and distributed with different degrees of success. Hit some rucks too, iirc, not that that's what you want from your 10, mind.
I stand by saying I don't think he had a poor game.
It’s not an appeal to authority - I once again referenced the Farrell quote specifically to refute points others made about the kicking strategy being entirely predetermined and that therefore absolving Crowley of any blame.
I’m basing my opinion of him having a poor game on my own views of his performance. On the fact that I can’t think of anything noteworthy he did during the game. On the absolute lack of spark he brought to it. On the fact he overcooked a number of kicks. On a basic handling error off decent ball. To reinforce that point I pointed out how he was hauled ashore after 57 mins and the manager’s comments afterwards were less than fulsome in their praise of his performance.
I’m not slating the guy, not saying he’s a bad player by any means. I still think he’s our best 10 right now and I’d start him again Friday night.
You also miss the point when going on about appeals to authority etc that you’re doing nothing to support your point - beyond saying you felt he was fine, and it was everyone else’s fault essentially.
Of course his opinion is directly relevant. But it doesn't then follow that all his opinions (i.e. decisions) are correct.
"Farrell said he was poor" absolutely is an appeal to authority, however you want to slice it.
That isn’t what an appeal to authority is, but I know that there’s precisely zero prospect of you saying “I was wrong” so grand, whatever.
Oh right, trail runs, sorry obviously he was excellent so.
The contestables weren’t all that contestable for the most part - the vast majority were overcooked. One notable one off the free kick we got from a scrum in midfield was essentially aimless and an easy enough mark.
But this is an absolute waste of time so I’m done with it.
This might come as a surprise to you - but we didn’t win back to back 6 Nations championships by setting the bar that low for what constitutes a good performance.
Our 10 is an integral leader on the field. He is foremost responsible for shaping our attack and directing the team.
Claiming making straight forward tackles, kicking straight forward shots at goal and kicking contestables (most of which I’d argue were poorly executed) does not constitute a good out half performance, and I’d bet you any money Jack Crowley himself would tell you that. He’s capable of much more than that and will need to do much more than that to stay in that shirt.
first one wasn’t contestable (the one you mention), all the rest were. I watched it back today. You’ve made your mind up on him, so (as you say yourself), no point wasting any more time on the argument.🙏
I didn’t say he was excellent. Like, I literally didn’t. Is the sarcasm and condescension really necessary? More than happy to leave it there. And I’m still curious on sources for stats other than ESPN and IrishRugby fwiw.
Hang on… "not seen it yet" - he lead Ireland to a Six Nations and Munster to a URC. I'd have thought that's a pretty unbelievable trajectory for a young successor. Better than anyone could have hoped for I'd have thought, I don't think any of us had that on their bingo card at the start of that season! I'd even say I don't think he gets enough credit for it on here for some weird reason…
He didn't play well the other day, wasn't atrocious either, but I don't think above is accurate at all.
Edit: to add to your other point, I suspect you may be right but I'm a big believer in giving players time, I don't think Frawley has had enough of it yet to fully form judgment. That's why I'd let him start this weekend. Similarly, I thought the same about Casey coming to international level when I felt he'd be better of playing European rugby before fast-tracking him (I think his development has been handled well, he hasn't been 2nd 9 immediately and I don't think there were many on here clamouring for it) and same as what I currently think about Sam Prendergast, let him get a few minutes off the bench v Fiji/time in camp for the experience but more pertinently prove himself at a level he hasn't proved himself at yet in, between URC and international… Europe (and URC too, he's barely in the door at that level too).
Crowley is 24 and has already won a championship as our starting fly half. At the same age Sexton was only making his debut for Ireland. I'd say that's taking the bull by the horns.
Let’s try… explain to me why it’s not an appeal to authority?
a thirty second google search will explain it for you if you’re genuinely open to it, I don’t think the forum needs another endless back and forth between us.
Did Crowley ‘lead’ us to a 6N? I don’t think I’d agree with that, much as I wouldn’t agree with anyone saying he ‘lead’ us to defeat against NZ. He’s a talented player who had a promising first 6N but also had a good few dodgy moments with charged down kicks and costly missed points off the tee. He nailed his kicks on Friday which was great to see and hasn’t been blocked down in recent memory which shows he’s cutting these types of errors out of his game.
Would like to see him get more out of his backline but Friday was not the day to judge him on that as no one could hold onto the ball. He’s doing grand but hopefully he can kick onto another level in the next year or two. I don’t see any reason why he won’t as he’s clearly got the competitive drive to improve and he’s got the talent. Would love to see him put in a big performance soon though.
Thornley has Henshaw coming in. Somewhere else had O'Mahony potentially starting at 6 instead of Beirne, but not replicated here.
Edit: Indo have two out of three locks in the second row with either POM or Beirne at 6. Henshaw at 12 again
Tell us again why don’t you that you watched the game today - I watched it back Saturday morning. I’ve rewatched aspects of it multiple times this week. By my reckoning he kicked 9 Garryowen style kicks during the game, of which I’d describe 3 of them as actually contestable where we got a player in the air with a chance to compete.
Go back and look at his kicks after 40 seconds, the free kick on 13 mins, the kick on 29 mins, the kick on 38 mins and most of his drop offs to restart (especially the two in the second half) - all of these were kicks where we had to no real chance to regather.
Murray Kinsella specifically mentioned this to on the 42 podcast this week - how he felt our kicks were largely poor gave the All Blacks too much time to catch and often to be able to step the incoming player.
(@aloof - that reference to Murray Kinsella is a another credible source with a similar view of this as me, it’s not an appeal to authority, FYI).
What an utterly depressing outlook for the team if that's true
most of his drop offs to restart (especially the two in the second half) - all of these were kicks where we had to no real chance to regather.
This simply isn’t true, FTD. Both of those in the 2nd half were very good contestables. The first one, we literally won a penalty from because Lowe was prevented from contesting. If you’re going to present that as “no real chance to regather” that seems like a pretty important detail to omit.
I watched the game today.
You’re absolutely right that in October 2022, none of us saw Crowley taking the 10 jersey within 12 months of that. It’s been some achievement and perfect timing for us with the departure of Sexton
But what we’re hoping to see now is the next level of performance, that “running the show” level that you’d expect from a really top level OH. I don't think we've seen it yet.
Ross Byrne led Leinster to a European final (twice). Is he a top-level OH? Very clearly not.
The sample size for Crowley as a test 10 is still very small, and tbh he's had some ropey enough days, but against that, the guy is still only 24, still plenty of scope to grow into the jersey.
Agreed, I thought the restarts in particular were spot on, but I guess we all see what we want to see.
I just rewatched the first half just now, no ball died with Crowley, every pass went to hand. His kicks were contestable bar the first one which was a tad too long but Porter won a scrum with his block down.
An appeal to authority implies the 'authority' is just some 'important' person who has no knowledge of the subject matter. In terms of Irish rugby, Andy Farrell does not fit this description. Citing Colin Farrell saying that Crowley played poorly would be an example of appeal to authority.
HTH.
I rewatched and Scott Barrett is the one who has a case to answer.
Cleaned up? I'm picturing Joe McCarthy licking a tissue and wiping snots off McKenzie's face.
And don't tell me I'm wrong.
POM going again? Jaysus.
so it looks like Crowley to start and POM to come in and steady the ship. Id pick Izuchukwu or prendergast myself as they are the future after POM.
1-8 underperformed last week and were dominated by their opposition, it shouldn't be left in place for this week if AF wants a change.
All the focus here on Crowley/frawley with a particularly negative slant whilst ignoring the problems upfront, which actually cost us the game , in the 13 penalties conceded to start with.
Ah christ POM to start, that's wrong in my opinion as we need to start blooding younger future players, it's not as if he is tearing up trees either like and he is 35, suppose it's to secure line out ball which is gone to pot since POC took over that area, 13 penalties conceded last week is a killer yo only 5 given, of course ref never saw the all black hand knocking the ball back in first half when we were only yards from their line or savea getting turnover when entering from the side, why do the all blacks get the 50/50 calls, same with closing the line at line out time, richie mccaw made a career out of the dark arts and was rarely pulled on it. Anyway I'm disappointed with lack of rotation and sticking still to players who won't make next world cup
Here's my take on the turnovers from the first half after a rewatch last night - I'm ignoring the kicks/clearance kicks for the moment and concentrating on when we had the ball and lost it ourselves or gave away a penalty either in attack of defence.
Knock on by Aki
Pen against Belham
Knock on by Ryan
NZ win our Lineout
Pen against JGP for blocking
Knock on in the ruck
Pen against Doris for not releasing
Pen for a high tackle (I didn't go back to check by who)
FK against JGP not feeding the ball into the scrum
Pen against Belham for no arms tackle
We lose the ball in the ruck after a successful Lineout and maul
Pen against Beirne for not releasing
Pen against Ryan and also a team warning
